FHB Logo Facebook LinkedIn Email Pinterest Twitter X Instagram Tiktok YouTube Plus Icon Close Icon Navigation Search Icon Navigation Search Icon Arrow Down Icon Video Guide Icon Article Guide Icon Modal Close Icon Guide Search Icon Skip to content
Subscribe
Log In
  • How-To
  • Design
  • Tools & Materials
  • Restoration
  • Videos
  • Blogs
  • Forum
  • Magazine
  • Members
  • FHB House
  • Podcast
Log In

Discussion Forum

Discussion Forum

Removal of VERY old floor tiles

redoak | Posted in General Discussion on June 5, 2007 05:07am

Help! We are slowly pulling up all the old vinyl tiles in our kitchen/pantry/laundryroom, etc. We’ve unearthed two layers. The bottommost layer seems to have been laid during the Pleistocene (trilobite fossil imprints included)! I’ve never seen tile like this before: it seems to have a paper backing? The adhesive used is black and look like tar or creosote.

My questions are:

1) Could any of this stuff contain asbestos (tile and/or adhesives)?

2) Any way to test for it?

3) Safety precautions needed? Will a good dust mask suffice? What about this stuff getting on your skin (hands, forearms, etc.)?

4) Floor adhesive stripper doesn’t penetrate the paper and is therefore, rendered pretty much useless.

5) Can I use a heat gun? If asbestos is in the adhesive, could the fumes pose a health hazard? Heat gun has worked for me before, after most of the adhesive has been removed with the stripper.

6) Finally, the floor will need a leveller. Is there something other than the mortar-like stuff H.D. sells? Something like a hard set spackle that will spread easier and would be easier to sand?

I know, lots of questions. But any guidance would be much appreciated.

Reply
  • X
  • facebook
  • linkedin
  • pinterest
  • email
  • add to favorites Log in or Sign up to save your favorite articles

Replies

  1. DanH | Jun 05, 2007 05:17pm | #1

    1) Yes.

    2) Yes. But don't ask me how.

    3) A standard dust mask isn't sufficient to keep out asbestos particles in the air. And vacuuming with a standard vac is a bad idea -- just spreads the stuff around.

    4) Some sort of "wet" removal is what the pros usually use.

    5) There's debate on whether heat is a good approach or not. I don't know what the official word is.

    6) There are all sorts of levelers available. But whatever you use shouldn't need sanding if applied correctly.

    So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
  2. karp | Jun 05, 2007 07:50pm | #2

    Older tile was know as VAT, or vinyl asbestose tile. Newer tile is known as VCT, or vinyl composite tile.

    A soap solution sprayed on the area being worked on is the method used by abatement companies.

    If its on a ply substrate, try lifting the ply with the tiles still in place. In the past, I foolishly chopped the floor into sections, lifting the ply and the several layers of flooring at once. Any more questions, ask them quick, as I'm not long for this world.

    1. User avater
      redoak | Jun 06, 2007 05:25am | #10

      I guess I need to get this stuff tested. The bottom layer, I've discovered, is sheet vinyl. When did sheet vinyl come out? Do you know?One of the methods suggested by a local clean air agency up my way is removing floor and ply in sections, but with a chisel and pry bars, etc. Yes, I've done some dumb things in my life, too. Washing my hands with lacquer thinner, for instance!

      1. grpphoto | Jun 06, 2007 06:18am | #17

        Are you sure that it's sheet vinyl, or is it sheet linoleum? Lino is thicker than vinyl and dates back to the '50s.George Patterson

        1. User avater
          redoak | Jun 06, 2007 06:28am | #19

          George,Thanks for your two posts. Not sure if it's linoleum or vinyl. What I do know is that the backing is either felt or highly filled paper made (I read somewhere) from wood pulp and calcium carbonate. Maybe you can tell me, but I don't think the older linoleum had a felt or paper backing, did it?

          1. grpphoto | Jun 06, 2007 06:44am | #22

            You're correct. As far as I know, lino had no backing. Sounds like the felt-backed vinyl common in the '70s and '80s. You can probably tell your wife not to worry.BTW. Black adhesives were available until at least 1990. Later ones did not have asbestos, and some were even water-soluble (as another poster mentioned). If that's what you have, there are probably removers. I haven't researched those (just used them once).George Patterson

        2. JohnSprungX | Jun 06, 2007 10:09pm | #33

          > Lino is thicker than vinyl and dates back to the '50s.

          Actually, it dates back to the '60's -- the 1860's:

          http://inventors.about.com/od/lstartinventions/a/linoleum.htm

           

          -- J.S.

           

      2. marv | Jun 06, 2007 06:06pm | #29

        Washing my hands with lacquer thinner, for instance!

        Whats wrong with that?  I use to do it when I painted cars for a couple of years (1970s).You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.

        Marv

  3. Steinmetz | Jun 05, 2007 08:57pm | #3

    Get a big block of dry ice and bust it up in big chunks shove the stuff
    with a rake or squeegee over a section of three or four tiles at a time.
    They'll pop up and can be lifted off (Use heavy gloves)
    Continue along to the next section. Good luck, Steinmetz

    1. User avater
      redoak | Jun 06, 2007 05:28am | #11

      Have you actually employed this method? Or know someone who has? Sounds like a possible solution. Will it work with sheet vinyl, which, I've discovered, is the bottom layer?

      1. Steinmetz | Jun 06, 2007 10:16am | #26

        Red, I've worked over 50 years in construction in New York City buildings, I've seen that procedure done hundreds of times. Dry ice is easily available in any large city. I believe the black 'tar'(Mastic)was petroleum based??
        Steinmetz.

        1. User avater
          redoak | Jun 06, 2007 04:32pm | #28

          Steinmetz,Have since determined that the black adhesive is water soluble and comes up with water and some elbow grease. Does this mean that could still have asbestos in it? If water can remove it and it does have asbestos in it, the health hazard is greatly reduced, no?Thanks for posting. What a great technique for removal of old floor tiles!

  4. JohnSprungX | Jun 05, 2007 09:01pm | #4

    Try removing that old black adhesive with water.  Surprisingly, many of the early adhesives were water soluable. 

     

    -- J.S.

     

    1. User avater
      redoak | Jun 06, 2007 05:29am | #12

      Thanks for the tip! That would make things easier, for sure.

  5. duckport | Jun 05, 2007 09:34pm | #5

    If tile is 9"x9" and old it almost certainly contains asbestos and the black adhesive likely does also therefore I wouldnt bother getting it tested just consider it to be ACM (asbestos containing material). If it is 12"x12" it may or may not contain asbestos.  The asbestos in VAT is considered non friable as long as the material is not cut, broken or sanded. So it can safely be picked up, walked on etc. as long as it is not broken. The danger is from inhalation of the fibers not through absorbtion through the skin. Depending on which State you are in there may not be any EPA requirements for the removal and or disposal of this material in a residential setting. This was the case in Illinois, at least up to a few years ago.  Vast quantities of this material have been removed and dumped without any consideration of its potential health effects. Though the danger IMO is overblown there is some health risk. The normal way it is removed in any substantial quantity in commercial or institutional settings is by a licensed abatement contractor with trained workers, in containment with negative air, bagged and taken to special landfills.  The normal way it is removed in residential is the material is scraped off the floor, thrown in a dumpster or pickup and taken to any dump. Frankly I never understood why there should be any difference, if the material is harmful it is harmful.  I would not suggest you use this method of removal in your home. Check your State EPA to see what regs apply for residential VAT removal.

    1. User avater
      redoak | Jun 06, 2007 05:04am | #8

      OMG! The bad news here is that my wife unknowingly started this project while I was at work. So, if this stuff has asbestos in it, she was certainly exposed since she was not even wearing a dust mask! The good news, I suppose, if you can call it "good," is that she only worked on a 4' x 4' section.This sounds like a potential nightmare! What I've discovered since posting this morning is that that bottom layer is sheet vinyl. This is the stuff, when my wife pulled it up, had a paper backing to it. The black adhesive is on the plywood.From the posts here and what I've managed to read on the topic, getting a contractor to remove this stuff will cost us a small fortune. Thanks for your input.

  6. factotam | Jun 06, 2007 12:57am | #6
  7. Send the sample to an asbestos analysis laboratory accredited by the National Voluntary Laboratory Accreditation Program (NVLAP) at the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST). A directory of NVLAP-accredited laboratories is available on the NVLAP web site Exit Disclaimer. Your state or local health department may also be able to help. 
  8. http://www.epa.gov/asbestos/pubs/ashome.html

     

  • Engineerguy | Jun 06, 2007 03:46am | #7

    I have a good contact up your way that did all my asbestos testing for my projects, that could help you.  But I think it would be a waste of money.  If your tile is older than 1960, I would guarantee that it is asbestos containing. 

    If you are looking at removing it yourself, check out Puget Sound Air Quality Agency or whatever it is called these days.  http://www.pscleanair.org/regulated/asbestos/homeowners/demolitions.aspx

    And of course there is a fee. 

    <rant on> I have dealt with this agency for my entire career and they are the biggest hindrance you will have to contend with.  Back in the 90's they exceeded EPA asbestos removal requirements way beyond what was needed.  In short, they are a money making government entity...  <rant off>

    Let me know if I can help with my contact information.

    Leland

    1. User avater
      redoak | Jun 06, 2007 05:16am | #9

      Thanks for the pscleanair link. Man, you'd think they were advising you on how to remove radioactive material from your home! I appreciate the rant; I would love NOT to have to involve this agency.They advise either peeling the stuff off (if it doesn't tear) or removing it and the plywood underlayment in sections. I wonder where the asbestos is in the sheet vinyl: part of the vinyl itself or in the paper backing underneath?Is your contact an asbestos removal contractor?

  • darrel | Jun 06, 2007 05:34am | #13

    1) As stated, yes.

    2) Yep. Most major metro areas will have a testing lab somewhere.

    3) Asbestos is harmless to touch. It's breathing it that will do you in eventually. To do you in, though, you really need to breath a LOT of it over a rather long time. Not that you shouldn't take precautions, but tearing up one kitchen floor isn't going to kill you. The easiest preventative measure is to keep the tiles wet to prevent too much dust from being kicked up. If you want, you can also get respirators rated for asbestos. Keep in mind that the asbestos in tile is a LOT less friable than something like asebestos pipe wrap. In otherwords, to make the asbestos in the tile harmful, you'd have to smash the tiles to the point of making dust.

    4) Try Bean-e-doo. WOrked great getting the black stuff off our concrete floors. They'll send you a test vial to try out for free:
    http://www.franmar.com/index.php?cPath=22

    5) Don't know about heat guns

    6) DOn't know about sandable, but you can buy self-leveling stuff that you just pour on.

    1. User avater
      redoak | Jun 06, 2007 06:12am | #15

      Darrel, I very much appreciate putting this into perspective.Will look into the link you provided. Thanks, again.

      1. Engineerguy | Jun 06, 2007 06:42am | #21

        Redoak, the sheet vinyl could also be ACM (asbestos containing material).  

        Is the sheet vinyl battleship gray?  If so, then it is ACM or at least a 90% that it is.  Also consider that the mastic used can also be ACM. 

        As some of the other guys have stated, you can encapsulate with 1/4 ply, but now you know about it, it will/can be an issue with the resale of the house.  My preference would be to get rid of it now if it was my house.  Makes future modifications, easier to deal with.

        The main thing you need to consider when dealing with ACM is that when it becomes friable, such as drilling, sanding, or breaking it, that is when you have exposure to airborne fibers.  Also, if you are doing any work around it, use water mixed with a little bit of soap to act as a surfactant.

        My contact is an industrial hygienist, which are the folks that test materials for ACM.  She has her own kit including a microscope that she uses to check sample with.  For bulk samples, she has plenty of labs that she can give you a quick turn around on the materials in question. 

        I do know contractors that can do the job for you.  Let me know if you need names.

        Leland  ..... former certified asbestos inspector/designer

        1. User avater
          redoak | Jun 06, 2007 08:58am | #25

          Engineerguy,The sheet vinyl has layers of paper or felt on the back. It's not gray. The black adhesive, that grpphoto calls "cutback," is water soluble. So, whether it's oil-based or water-based, it could still have asbestos in it, right? But using water (with soap?) to get this stuff up off the ply should not be a health hazard....unless I missed something.I'm with you; I'd like to get rid of the stuff rather than covering it with ply or hardibacker.Wow, as a former asbestos inspector, I'd say you were eminently qualified to post on this thread!Thanks very much for your input. I may get back to you re the industrial hygenist, although there are labs in the Seattle area that test for asbestos. Which would be cheaper and/or more expedient?If I can find a way to do it myself, I'll go that route.Are there special plastic bags I need to procur for taking to the dump? I guess I need to find out if this stuff needs to go to the hazardous waste dump.

        2. MtnBoy | Jun 06, 2007 01:19pm | #27

          Does he "know" it contains asbestos right now? So long as he hasn't had it tested, he doesn't know anything. And we could all suspect anything this old might have asbestos. And, if he doesn't disturb it, it won't pose a potential health problem to current or any future buyers will it?Encapsulation is SO much easier. Not to mention the exposure to other potentially harmful chemicals during the removal process. I'd encapsulate for sure.I'm tearing down a house to build a new one for my family. Made the purchase contingent on an asbestos inspection because here in GA you have to bring in the suited up guys to do abatement prior to demolition. I wanted to know how much there was and have a bid on removal before I bought it. Tested under the layers of kitchen flooring and found none there. Tested everywhere and found it only in the tape wrapping the HVAC ductwork. Cost to inspect: $1200. Removal cost: $2700.It's getting to be a bigger issue but most people here aren't aware of it yet. Hopefully, by the time they are, sanity will prevail and they'll also know about not disturbing it, encapsulation, etc.

          1. factotam | Jun 06, 2007 09:10pm | #30

            "Encapsulation is SO much easier."

            agreed, and also cheaper and can be done by the home owner without any special equipment and without creating any potential health or safety issues that demolition may create, it does not make sense to try to remove it when you can just encapsulate it

          2. DanH | Jun 06, 2007 09:43pm | #31

            Except that ten years down the road, when you DO need to remove it, it may be an order of magnitude more expensive to do so, due to rule changes.
            So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin

          3. factotam | Jun 06, 2007 10:39pm | #34

            i find it hard to believe that they could make it any more tedious and time consuming and expensive to abate asbestos then it is now

             

             

          4. DanH | Jun 06, 2007 11:03pm | #35

            Depends on where you live and what you're doing. In some parts of the country there would be no restrictions on removing this stuff other than that you double-bag it before sending it to the dump. Of course, you would still want to take some reasonable precautions to protect yourself and your family, but they aren't mandated.
            So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin

        3. User avater
          rjw | Jun 08, 2007 09:04pm | #47

          >>but now you know about it, it will/can be an issue with the resale of the house. Huh?Lots of "could be's" no definite knowledge.I'd say he's still clear checking "I dunno" on the disclosure form.

          With my mouth I will give great thanks to the Lord; I will praise Him in the midst of the throng. For He stands at the right hand of the needy, to save them from those who would condemn them to death.

          - Psalms 109:30-31

          1. Engineerguy | Jun 09, 2007 01:57am | #48

            "Lots of "could be's" no definite knowledge."

            Let me get this straight.  At the beginning of the thread redoak asked if this could be asbestos tile.  All of the responses were affirmative.  Having PMed over 500,000 sf of WW II era buildings with VAT, asbestos lagging, and asbestos siding as well as knowing the jurisdiction redoak is in, the material at this point is assumed to be ACM until tested. 

            But then again if a good quality home inspector saw the lifts, he would assume the same thing.  There is definite knowledge. 

            Leland.... former Asbestos Inspector/Designer

  • factotam | Jun 06, 2007 06:07am | #14

    if your existing floor coverings contain asbestos you can just cover them with 1/4" plywood underlayment and then install your new floor convering ontop

  • grpphoto | Jun 06, 2007 06:15am | #16

    1) Could any of this stuff contain asbestos (tile and/or adhesives)?

    Almost certainly. Asbestos was a normal component of what was called "asphalt" tile in the '60s and '70s. The black adhesive is called "cutback" adhesive (sometimes spelled "cut back"), and also contained asbestos during this period and earlier.

    2) Any way to test for it?

    Not that I know of; not cheap, at any rate.

    3) Safety precautions needed? Will a good dust mask suffice? What about this stuff getting on your skin (hands, forearms, etc.)?

    If you don't smoke, it's probably not an issue. If you do, you really want forced outside air ventilation gear. Skin contact is not dangerous. Asbestos is generally dangerous to smokers if it fragments and gets into the air. If the tile comes up in one piece - no problem. But it usually breaks.

    4) Floor adhesive stripper doesn't penetrate the paper and is therefore, rendered pretty much useless.

    There are strippers for cutback adhesive, but most sources agree that you will not be able to glue anything else down to the floor after you use one. The argument is that it liquifies and drives the old adhesive deep into the substrate, and nothing else adheres to it.

    5) Can I use a heat gun? If asbestos is in the adhesive, could the fumes pose a health hazard? Heat gun has worked for me before, after most of the adhesive has been removed with the stripper.

    A heat gun will do no good. I tried this. The only thing guaranteed to work is to scraped it off with a razor blade scraper or the equivalent. The 4" blade models are sold at the big boxes.

    6) Finally, the floor will need a leveller. Is there something other than the mortar-like stuff H.D. sells? Something like a hard set spackle that will spread easier and would be easier to sand?

    Do a search on "cutback adhesive" and see. From what my searches have turned up, about the only thing that adheres to this stuff is thinset mortar. So, you scrape the cutback off as best you can, apply a thing layer of thinset, then apply your floor leveler. If you want to risk your floor not adhering as best it might, then just apply the leveler directly and pray.

    Now. Are you planning to put a layer of vinyl flooring down? Are you willing to gamble? Once you get the floor clean, you can apply a layer of 15 pound felt. Glue or staple it down, depending on the substrate. Then apply your floor leveler and other layers on top of that. The felt will probably bond well to the cutback.

    Me, I'm putting ceramic tile down on top of this stuff. It's a long, painful process.

    George Patterson
    1. User avater
      redoak | Jun 06, 2007 06:41am | #20

      George,Lots of info here. So, if it's black, it's cutback? Darrel (#14) gave me a link for asbestos adhesive removal. I wonder if that would get it up? One of it's applications is asbestos adhesive removal.If I get up most of the cutback and put a layer of thinset down, I won't need to put the paper down, right? What's the difference between thinset and leveller?Thanks for your posts.

      1. grpphoto | Jun 06, 2007 06:48am | #23

        No, black does not equal cutback. Cutback was an oil-based (mineral spirits) adhesive. Most of it had asbestos as a binder until the mid-70s. It was gradually replaced by water-based adhesives during the '80s. The last time I saw any black adhesive was in the early '90s, and that stuff was also water-based. It was marketed to old-timers like me who were looking for cutback adhesive and couldn't find any.Basically, oil-based = cutback. Water-based != cutback.George Patterson

        1. User avater
          redoak | Jun 06, 2007 08:41am | #24

          So, even if it's water soluble, it could still have asbestos in it?That's what's on the plywood. Water slowly dissolved the adhesive. Weird, it turned gray as it was dissolving.If it has asbestos in it, and is removed by water, there can't be much danger, can there? Sounds like the only real danger is breathing the airborne fibers.Thanks, again, for your posts.

          1. grpphoto | Jun 07, 2007 05:43am | #36

            > So, even if it's water soluble, it could still have asbestos in it?I don't think so. Asbestos was pulled from most materials about 1976. The water soluble adhesives hit the market about 1980. I don't think there's any overlap, but I could be wrong. You could dissolve the old cutback adhesives with petroleum products, but water wouldn't do a thing to it.> If it has asbestos in it, and is removed by water, there can't be much > danger, can there? Sounds like the only real danger is breathing the
            > airborne fibers.That's correct. The recommended procedure for removing cutback is to keep it wet and scrape it. Keeping it wet works just as you guessed it does.George Patterson

          2. User avater
            redoak | Jun 07, 2007 06:53am | #37

            George,Thanks for all your posts. I guess the only possible danger is the sheet vinyl. There was another layer of 12" self-adhesive tiles on top, but I'm pretty sure they're free of asbestos. Might have a lab test for asbestos in the sheet vinyl, just so we know one way or another.Thanks again.Bill

          3. User avater
            Dinosaur | Jun 07, 2007 07:57am | #38

            The paper backing is the give-away as far as I can tell from here. This sounds very much like linoleum, not vinyl.

            Linoleum is a very benign material. You can try to freeze it with dry ice and crack it off as suggested, or hit it with a heat gun to soften the adhesive, and peel it off in chunks or strips.

            In either case it would be a good idea to use a heavy-duty floor scraper with some beef to it so your muscles don't have to take all the abuse. If you can sharpen a flat-edged roofer's stripping shovel well enough, that will work. Put the bevel on the bottom side so the blade won't dig into the subfloor.

             

             

            Forget about asbestos danger; even if that stuff does contain asbestos (which, if it's linoleum, seems unlikely), you'd have to inhale the entire floor thirty or forty times to get enough to harm you.

            Asbestos panic is primarily a US phenomenon. The original US prohibitions were emplaced in the 1970s, I believe, subsequent to litigation for mine workers whose exposure happened mostly in the 30s and 40s. Since that time asbestos panic has been fueled and driven by the abatement companies which profit greatly from it.

            But asbestos is still sold and used safely in many other countries, including Canada, and new cases of asbestosis are almost unheard of. The mine workers who got asbestosis were primarily the beaters, whose job was to pound the ore to separate out the fibres. This was originally done by hand in small wooden cases, and of course it raised a lot of dust containing fibres which were inhaled by the beaters. But the dangerous ore was short-fibre asbestos, not the long-fibre varieties which are the ones mined and used today. Hand beating of ore stopped around the beginning of World War II. Today ore processing is completely mechanised, and all mine workers wear protective gear.

            This does not prevent asbestos from being the subject of heated political debates founded more on fear-mongering and rhetoric than facts, but I do not wish to debate the topic. I am just providing information.

            Dinosaur

             

            How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....

          4. User avater
            redoak | Jun 07, 2007 05:14pm | #39

            Dinosaur,Thank you for posting. And for the added info you have generously provided on asbestos. You have provided some much appreciated perspective. Great quote (and graphic), by the way. Tolkien's trilogy (along with The Hobbit) are superb! Movies weren't bad, either.

          5. User avater
            Dinosaur | Jun 07, 2007 07:18pm | #41

            Thanks; glad I could help. I've recently been through the scenario you're experiencing now with a client who was re-doing her kitchen and did as much of the 'grunt' work herself as possible to save some dough. She had a very similar accumulation of old flooring to remove, and it took shovels, heat guns, and a good deal of sweat equity to get it all off. The last of the black paper/adhesive residue had to be sanded off with 32-grit paper when the floor was refinished (in her case, the linoleum had been laid on top of the finish maple-strip flooring, not the subfloor).

             

            BTW, that 'quote' in my signature line isn't from Tolkein (or even from the movie version); it's original with me and describes obliquely my opinion of the so-called family 'justice' system as a result of my experiences with it, chronicled in the following thread: http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=57123.1 (You'll need to have your BT account coded for access to the Woodshed Tavern to see that thread; if it's not, you can do that by e-mailing the SYSOP and asking for access.)

            Dinosaur

             

            How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....

          6. User avater
            redoak | Jun 08, 2007 05:06am | #42

            Dinosaur,Wow, linoleum laid on a maple floor! That's crazy.Now you've got my curiosity piqued about that quote. Is your avocation poetry? Maybe it should be. At any rate, I've requested my BT account coded. Woodshed Tavern? That's a new one on me. Look forward to getting the story. As for justice system down here in the US, I'd say it's going to hell in a handbasket, i.e., Gonzales, special rendition, unlawful combatants, etc.Yes, I just recently took up flooring in another room of the house. They were "self-adhesive" tiles, but were put down with adhesive anyway. What a pain! Also discovered that the leveller they used between ply joints was Fixall. Would you know if I have to grind that all off before using a coat of thinset? I sure hope not.

          7. User avater
            Dinosaur | Jun 08, 2007 06:49am | #43

            On the Fixall question, I'm not familiar with that product so I can't answer you without more information. What sort of product is it? Is it gypsum based, resin-based, or cementitious?

             

            As to your other comment, I'll permit myself to rant a bit, LOL.

            There are a couple of reasons for finding a hardwood floor under stuff like that. One is the cultural changes that came in with the television era.

            View ImageStarting shortly after the war, people found themselves exposed to a lot of high-pressure salesmanship through the new medium, television, and the prevailing attitude quickly became that to be a modern homemaker, you had to use the modern wonders of Science--like canned baby forumla; frozen TV dinners; and vinyl flooring:

            'Old fashioned, unsanitary wooden floors collect germs and dirt in cracks, threatening your family's health and making you work harder to scrub that old floor! Modern Science has invented new, germ-proof plastics that go down seamlessly with no effort. Even your husband can do it! Be the first on your block to install our fine vinyl flooring on top of that old wood floor.'

            Can't you just see the guy in the suit and fedora huckstering his wares to some wide-eyed housewife?

            Another reason is that a lot of the existing housing stock in North America was then between 70 and 100 years old. The wood floors, while they were lovely when new, were so worn and patched that they were really in bad shape. Instead of going to the trouble and expense of repairing and refinishing them (or laying new hardwood on top of them, if they were too far gone), the older people who owned most of those houses (the baby-boom generation's grandparents, for the most part) simply covered them up with whatever was the most economical. A true love and respect for the quality of older homes didn't really develop until the quality of newer homes had dropped so low as to make the difference painfully obvious to almost everyone. That started happening in the early 80s and is progressing exponentially.

            In my client's case, it was the second reason that had caused the former owners to bequeath her two layers of plastic flooring. When she stripped that floor, we found 14 places where the floor had been rotted, cut, patched with plywood, drilled for pipes, or walls had been torn down. It took me a full day to patch those spots with pretty brutal butted patches, not a good job but what she could afford. Once it was sanded flat and stained dark and oiled, it didn't look that bad...and it was an incredible improvement over what she'd had before.

            As the old saying goes, when you're just a workin' slob, you do what you can, not what you want....

            Dinosaur

             

            How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....

          8. User avater
            redoak | Jun 08, 2007 08:54am | #44

            Dinosaur,Fixall is a very durable (hard) plaster product. Down here, levellers I know about are like cement. So, I'd be putting thinset or leveller over this hard plaster. My guess is that it would bond ok because the stuff that didn't come off when I removed the last of the adhesive with a heat gun and a broad knife seems quite tight. If I had to remove it, I'd probably have to disc sand it off and I've done enough of THAT in this life... and the next three. Great exposition on why someone would put linoleum over a hardwood floor. Makes perfect sense, given the cultural context you so adroitly describe. And as you say, makes perfect sense we can't wait to get rid of this stuff now.Yeah, I got a good visual of that guy from your description. What was the name of that movie about a couple of vinyl siding salesmen?Even better, can you imagine the husband coming home from work and being told that she'd just bought vinyl flooring for the kitchen and that, not to worry, the salesman told her how frightfully easy it would be for her husband to install it? Hoo boy! Loved the pic; a poignant visual aid. Brings back memories, too. Our tv was onlty slightly larger when I was a kid.

          9. User avater
            Dinosaur | Jun 08, 2007 06:26pm | #45

            What I'd worry about in applying thinset over a plaster-based product would be hydrophilic reactivity. (This seems to be my week for dusting off the pedantic vocabulatorium, LOL....)

            Thinset mortar contains a fair amount of water. In unmodified thinset, this water is got rid of by an endothermic chemical reaction with the cement content. Which means it combines chemically creating heat as it does so.

            But in latex-modified thinset--what almost every DIYer and even most pros use today for just about everything (because it's easier to work with)--the water must evaporate...which means it has to migrate out of the thinset to somewhere else, usually into the subfloor and from there, eventually into the atmosphere and away.

            This is why unmodified thinset is recommended for applications where an impervious tile membrane such as Kerdi or Ditra are used--because the water vapour is trapped between the membrane and the tile and can't get out except through the grout lines, a very slow process which retards curing of the thinset enormously.

            The potential problem I see in your application is that the moisture migration into that plaster filler could cause it to degenerate/disintegrate to some degree, which would then remove whatever structural support it provided to the thinset lying on top of it. And thinset is notoriously not strong stuff. It'll crack if that happens.

            So: If you decide to leave the Fixall in place, it seems to me you'd be best off using unmodified thinset. But I would still recommend you do a test on the plaster material first by laying a wet sponge or rag on it for a day or two and seeing how it reacts.

             

            Oh, yeah--I think that movie was called 'Tin Men' and it was about aluminum siding salesmen. Same phenomenon, but a decade or so later on....

             

            Dinosaur

             

            How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....

          10. User avater
            redoak | Jun 09, 2007 06:04am | #49

            Dinosaur,Thanks, again, for your concise tutorial. I will try to track down the unmodified thinset you discuss. It sounds a lot like hot mud. I wonder how hard it is to get a hold of this stuff. The big box stores carry thinset ready-mixed. My guess is that it's latex-modified. I can see i've got some homework to do. Very much appreciate your posts. You're a font of information. Yes, Tin Men! Great movie.

          11. User avater
            Dinosaur | Jun 09, 2007 06:38am | #52

            'Pre-mixed thinset' is not thinset mortar. Do not let the clowns at the big boxes tell you any different. It is a mastic-type compound which does not have any cementitious content, and should not be used for any application which calls for true thinset (which is anything except wall tile in dry areas).

            True thinset contains portland cement. You cannot pre-mix any portland-cement compound because it hardens even in a sealed container.

             

            As for unmodified thinset, you should be able to buy that at any decent supplier. It's more difficult to work with because it's not as 'fat' (sticky) as the modified version (which is why the modified version was invented). Until a few years ago, it was the only sort sold, and to modify it you had to buy and add a latex 'milk' liquid to the powder. Modified thinset simply contains dried latex mixed in with the powder to save you that trouble and is what most people use. But unmodified is still generally available.

            Dinosaur

             

            How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....

          12. JohnSprungX | Jun 08, 2007 08:30pm | #46

            > Asbestos was pulled from most materials about 1976. The water soluble adhesives hit the market about 1980.

            I've demoed loads of that water soluable black stuff dating from the 1910's thru WWII.  Never tested any of it for asbestos, it wouldn't matter much because you have to keep it so wet that there's no chance of airborne fibers.  Cutoff for both asbestos and lead paint was 1978.

             

            -- J.S.

             

          13. User avater
            redoak | Jun 09, 2007 06:13am | #50

            John,I'm a bit confused by your post. You say that the water soluble adhesives hit the market about 1980, but then you go on to say you've demoed the water soluable black stuff dating from the 1910's forward. Can you clarify, please.As you say, even if it DOES have asbestos in it, the water needed to remove it should render it harmless.Thanks.

          14. User avater
            redoak | Jun 09, 2007 06:24am | #51

            Engineerguy,So, what do you know about the linoleum? Dinosaur (see his posts) believes that the stuff I'm pulling up (which has a paper/felt backing) is linoleum which, he states, is benign (no asbestos). The black adhesive is water soluble and is removed with water; hence little chance of airborne fibers.

          15. Engineerguy | Jun 09, 2007 08:01am | #53

            Redoak, Dinosaur has a clue ;).  

            Make sure you keep thing wet and wear appropriate breathing gear when working the material.  Better safe then sorry.

            Leland

          16. JohnSprungX | Jun 11, 2007 10:33pm | #54

            >  I'm a bit confused by your post. You say that the water soluble adhesives hit the market about 1980, but then you go on to say you've demoed the water soluable black stuff dating from the 1910's forward. Can you clarify, please.

            Yes -- the arrow symbol ">" identifies material that I'm quoting from the post that I'm replying to.  That guy knew of water soluable adhesives post 1980.  I was providing the information that other such adhesives existed for maybe a century before that.   Look in the upper left corner of the message for "in reply to" in small print -- it links you back to what I'm answering.

             

            -- J.S.

             

  • alwaysoverbudget | Jun 06, 2007 06:20am | #18

    it's time for some 1/4 hardibacker, thinset it, and tile it,your done. larry

    hand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.

  • User avater
    rjw | Jun 06, 2007 09:49pm | #32

    Another source of removal advice:

    http://www.rfci.com/files/pdf/RFCIRecommended9-04.pdf

    Read it and weep.


    With my mouth I will give great thanks to the Lord; I will praise Him in the midst of the throng. For He stands at the right hand of the needy, to save them from those who would condemn them to death.

    - Psalms 109:30-31

  • BryanSayer | Jun 07, 2007 06:51pm | #40

    I lot of old house people found that hot water with a little dish soap got up the black stuff. Apply it liberally, and scrape with a wide blade scraper (round the two corners slightly to avoid diggin in).

    And yes, both the tiles and/or the adhesive may contain asbestos. Having an environmental lab check is the only way to find out for sure. If yes, you will need more protection than just a dust mask. You will need a respirator rated for asbestos, along with a number of other precautions.

  • Log in or create an account to post a comment.

    Sign up Log in

    Become a member and get full access to FineHomebuilding.com

    Video Shorts

    Categories

    • Business
    • Code Questions
    • Construction Techniques
    • Energy, Heating & Insulation
    • General Discussion
    • Help/Work Wanted
    • Photo Gallery
    • Reader Classified
    • Tools for Home Building
    • Home Group
    • Antique Trader
    • Arts & Crafts Homes
    • Bank Note Reporter
    • Cabin Life
    • Cuisine at Home
    • Fine Gardening
    • Fine Woodworking
    • Green Building Advisor
    • Garden Gate
    • Horticulture
    • Keep Craft Alive
    • Log Home Living
    • Military Trader/Vehicles
    • Numismatic News
    • Numismaster
    • Old Cars Weekly
    • Old House Journal
    • Period Homes
    • Popular Woodworking
    • Script
    • ShopNotes
    • Sports Collectors Digest
    • Threads
    • Timber Home Living
    • Traditional Building
    • Woodsmith
    • World Coin News
    • Writer's Digest
    Active Interest Media logo

    Discussion Forum

    Recent Posts and Replies

    • |
    • |
    • |
    • |
    • |
    • |
    View More Create Post

    Up Next

    Video Shorts

    Featured Story

    Picture-Perfect Pergola

    Built from locally sawn hemlock, this functional outdoor feature uses structural screws and metal connectors for fast, sturdy construction.

    Featured Video

    SawStop's Portable Tablesaw is Bigger and Better Than Before

    The 10-in. Jobsite Saw PRO has a wider table, a new dust-control port, and a more versatile fence, along with the same reliable safety mechanism included in all SawStop tablesaws.

    Related Stories

    • Old Boots Learn New Tricks
    • Install Denim Insulation Like a Pro
    • Podcast Episode 691: Replacing Vinyl Siding, Sloping Concrete, and Flat vs. Pitched Roofs
    • FHB Podcast Segment: Roofing on Commercial vs. Residential Buildings

    Highlights

    Fine Homebuilding All Access
    Fine Homebuilding Podcast
    Tool Tech
    Plus, get an extra 20% off with code GIFT20

    "I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.

    Get home building tips, offers, and expert advice in your inbox

    Signing you up...

    This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.
    See all newsletters
    See all newsletters

    Fine Homebuilding Magazine

    • Issue 332 - July 2025
      • Custom Built-ins With Job-Site Tools
      • Fight House Fires Through Design
      • Making the Move to Multifamily
    • Issue 331 - June 2025
      • A More Resilient Roof
      • Tool Test: You Need a Drywall Sander
      • Ducted vs. Ductless Heat Pumps
    • Issue 330 - April/May 2025
      • Deck Details for Durability
      • FAQs on HPWHs
      • 10 Tips for a Long-Lasting Paint Job
    • Issue 329 - Feb/Mar 2025
      • Smart Foundation for a Small Addition
      • A Kominka Comes West
      • Making Small Kitchens Work
    • Issue 328 - Dec/Jan 2025
      • How a Pro Replaces Columns
      • Passive House 3.0
      • Tool Test: Compact Line Lasers

    Fine Home Building

    Newsletter Sign-up

    • Fine Homebuilding

      Home building tips, offers, and expert advice in your inbox.

    • Green Building Advisor

      Building science and energy efficiency advice, plus special offers, in your inbox.

    • Old House Journal

      Repair, renovation, and restoration tips, plus special offers, in your inbox.

    Signing you up...

    This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.
    See all newsletters

    Follow

    • Fine Homebuilding

      Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.

      Start Free Trial Now
      • Facebook
      • Instagram
      • X
      • LinkedIn
    • GBA Prime

      Get instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.

      Start Free Trial Now
      • Facebook
      • YouTube
    • Old House Journal

      Learn how to restore, repair, update, and decorate your home.

      Subscribe Now
      • Facebook
      • Instagram
      • X
    • Fine Homebuilding

      Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.

      Start Free Trial Now
      • Facebook
      • Instagram
      • X
      • LinkedIn
    • GBA Prime

      Get instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.

      Start Free Trial Now
      • Facebook
      • YouTube
    • Old House Journal

      Learn how to restore, repair, update, and decorate your home.

      Subscribe Now
      • Facebook
      • Instagram
      • X

    Membership & Magazine

    • Online Archive
    • Start Free Trial
    • Magazine Subscription
    • Magazine Renewal
    • Gift a Subscription
    • Customer Support
    • Privacy Preferences
    • About
    • Contact
    • Advertise
    • Careers
    • Terms of Use
    • Site Map
    • Do not sell or share my information
    • Privacy Policy
    • Accessibility
    • California Privacy Rights

    © 2025 Active Interest Media. All rights reserved.

    Fine Homebuilding receives a commission for items purchased through links on this site, including Amazon Associates and other affiliate advertising programs.

    X
    X
    This is a dialog window which overlays the main content of the page. The modal window is a 'site map' of the most critical areas of the site. Pressing the Escape (ESC) button will close the modal and bring you back to where you were on the page.

    Main Menu

    • How-To
    • Design
    • Tools & Materials
    • Video
    • Blogs
    • Forum
    • Project Guides
    • Reader Projects
    • Magazine
    • Members
    • FHB House

    Podcasts

    • FHB Podcast
    • ProTalk

    Webinars

    • Upcoming and On-Demand

    Podcasts

    • FHB Podcast
    • ProTalk

    Webinars

    • Upcoming and On-Demand

    Popular Topics

    • Kitchens
    • Business
    • Bedrooms
    • Roofs
    • Architecture and Design
    • Green Building
    • Decks
    • Framing
    • Safety
    • Remodeling
    • Bathrooms
    • Windows
    • Tilework
    • Ceilings
    • HVAC

    Magazine

    • Current Issue
    • Past Issues
    • Magazine Index
    • Subscribe
    • Online Archive
    • Author Guidelines

    All Access

    • Member Home
    • Start Free Trial
    • Gift Membership

    Online Learning

    • Courses
    • Project Guides
    • Reader Projects
    • Podcast

    More

    • FHB Ambassadors
    • FHB House
    • Customer Support

    Account

    • Log In
    • Join

    Newsletter

    Get home building tips, offers, and expert advice in your inbox

    Signing you up...

    This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.
    See all newsletters
    See all newsletters

    Follow

    • X
    • YouTube
    • instagram
    • facebook
    • pinterest
    • Tiktok

    Join All Access

    Become a member and get instant access to thousands of videos, how-tos, tool reviews, and design features.

    Start Your Free Trial

    Subscribe

    FHB Magazine

    Start your subscription today and save up to 70%

    Subscribe

    Enjoy unlimited access to Fine Homebuilding. Join Now

    Already a member? Log in

    We hope you’ve enjoyed your free articles. To keep reading, become a member today.

    Get complete site access to expert advice, how-to videos, Code Check, and more, plus the print magazine.

    Start your FREE trial

    Already a member? Log in

    Privacy Policy Update

    We use cookies, pixels, script and other tracking technologies to analyze and improve our service, to improve and personalize content, and for advertising to you. We also share information about your use of our site with third-party social media, advertising and analytics partners. You can view our Privacy Policy here and our Terms of Use here.

    Cookies

    Analytics

    These cookies help us track site metrics to improve our sites and provide a better user experience.

    Advertising/Social Media

    These cookies are used to serve advertisements aligned with your interests.

    Essential

    These cookies are required to provide basic functions like page navigation and access to secure areas of the website.

    Delete My Data

    Delete all cookies and associated data