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Removing 1 of 2 top plates?

jja28 | Posted in Construction Techniques on September 8, 2007 11:18am

Hey guys,

We’re in a situation here where cutting out part of the bottom of the 2 top plates is looking like it might be necessary IF structurally sound at the same time.

We’re working on a deck that, over the years, with the house settling, is now sloping the wrong direction (towards the house). To re-slope away from the house, a sliding door which is currently above the deck needs to be raised about 1 1/2 inches.

It’s a 7 foot span, currently has a 4×8 header above the door, and the typical 2 top plates above that. The upper of the two plates has a splice/joint about 6 or 7 feet to the left (away from our door), so there would not be a splice above/near our door. Can we remove our existing header, cut out a 7 foot section of the lower top plate, then install a new 4×8 header 1 1/2″ higher?

We have an architect involved on the job, and their response was they need to send it to an engineer to sign off on it first. The customer does not want the extra costs and time of an engineer for this particular matter.

Other than the sheetrock damage to the inside, any exterior damage (sheething, siding, etc), that would need to be fixed, is there a “structural” issue with cutting out part of the lower of the 2 top plates?

Above the top plates are the ceiling joists for a flat roof, so the current header is carrying the weight of the roof above.

Any ideas, or more specific info needed? Anyone done this? Anyone strongly recommend NOT doing this? With the current situation, there is just not enough room to fit the new door (unless a new, custom sized shorter door is ordered).

Thanks in advance.

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Replies

  1. User avater
    Sphere | Sep 08, 2007 11:28pm | #1

    The customer not wanting to pay for an engineer is a redflag, I'd not dink with it. Its YOU who are the Pro, not them to make that call.

    Hows your insurance so if it fails and they say you did it w/o an eng. stamp?

    Think it through, shid rolls down hill, where are YOU ?

    Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

    "If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"

  2. Framer | Sep 08, 2007 11:31pm | #2

    Can we remove our existing header, cut out a 7 foot section of the lower top plate, then install a new 4x8 header 1 1/2" higher?

     

    I do it all the time where I'm from. It's not going to effect anything structurally. You already have guys here talking about framing with one top plate and getting away with it. I also eliminate top plates and put the top of the headers flush with the top plates and nail the ceiling joists and rafters into the header all the time.

     

    The real question and most important question I have for you is that where your from, can you get away with going against what the Architect says and pass framing inspection? If he wants it Engineered and those are his plans your working from, then you can't deviate from them, can you where your from? I can't.

     

    The customer does not want the extra costs and time of an engineer for this particular matter.

     

    Well, that's just to bad if that's what you have to do and the HO has to pay for in no matter what. They would've had to have paid for it anyway if this was figured out from the beginning or now.

    Joe Carola
  3. wrudiger | Sep 08, 2007 11:39pm | #3

    Jack the house back up?  Rebuild the deck so it fits with the new level of the house?

    Raising the slider to work with the deck just seems ####-backwards; a tiny band-aid on a big wart.  Not to mention a bone-breaker as people trip over the 1½" higher sill.

    Just my 2¢ - it's been 25 years since I did this for a living...

  4. Framer | Sep 08, 2007 11:44pm | #4

    We're working on a deck that, over the years, with the house settling, is now sloping the wrong direction (towards the house). To re-slope away from the house, a sliding door which is currently above the deck needs to be raised about 1 1/2 inches.

    Without seeing the deck, is it possible to cut the posts holding up the girder down 1-1/2" and dropping the deck down at the high end? Or is there lattice work or something that would stop you from doing that?

    Joe Carola
    1. jja28 | Sep 09, 2007 12:14am | #7

      Without seeing the deck, is it possible to cut the posts holding up the girder down 1-1/2" and dropping the deck down at the high end? Or is there lattice work or something that would stop you from doing that?

      The deck is above another living quarters. The original deck was comprised of 5/8" ply sub floor and a roughly 2" concrete slab on top of that.

      The deck is roughly 36' x 10' (36' along the width of the house, and 10' out away from the house). The deck also raps around on the 2 opposite sides of the house. Currently the deck is about 1/2" low at the wall, compared to the end of the 10' section. 1/4" to a foot says the deck (at the wall) should be roughly 2 1/2" higher. a 3" adjustment (2 1/2" slope + 1/2" slope in wrong direction) needs to be fixed.

      The sliding door is currently sitting on 2 mudsills (so it's up 3" off the deck as it is). If we re-slope the deck with sleepers (which is planned), we can get our 1/4" to a foot, however then the sliding door will be sitting right on the deck. That would mean cutting the bottom flange off the new sliding door, which, according to the architects, voids the warranty on the sliding door. 2nd, everyone wants the door up off the deck, preferably a 2x4 (1 1/2" sill again).

      That 1 1/2" raising of the door right there...is what is causing the issue. If we go up 1 1/2", well we need to make room up above also.

      One more option would have been to rip down every joist on the deck, so roughly 27 or 28 10' rips from roughly 3" to nothing.

      Basically everyone (myself included) is trying to get the job done for the customer, in a safe manner, without breaking his piggy bank.

      1. Framer | Sep 09, 2007 12:24am | #9

        If it gets to carried away you could always use 2-2x6's with a 1/2" flitch plate in between if it can handle the load and don't have to worry about cutting any plates out.http://www.betterheader.com/beamlegends.aspJoe Carola

      2. User avater
        BillHartmann | Sep 09, 2007 01:36am | #13

        "The deck is above another living quarters. The original deck was comprised of 5/8" ply sub floor and a roughly 2" concrete slab on top of that."Is this multi-family housing of some sort?If so that often throws things of the simple and basic catagory and requires engineering..
        .
        A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.

        1. jja28 | Sep 09, 2007 02:08am | #14

          Bill,Yes, 3 units.Unit A - Top which is where the deck and sliding door are. This unit gets rented out.Unit B - Middle floor is where the owner of the building lives.Unit C - Bottom floor where another tenant lives.Well all this info I'm getting today is making for one swell weekend...sigh. Looks like some phone calls (Architect, Window Rep, and Owner) will be in order first thing Monday morning before anything gets done.At this point, I'm beginning to think more along the lines of a shorter sliding door so the header/plate situation can be left alone.The door that was delivered is 81 1/2" so a rough of 82". I hope these guys make one for an 80" rough as a standard door size, or shorter (78"?) as a custom, because who knows what else might come up. The reason I mention shorter is because we need room to lift it up (sill plate), since the deck will have a deck-to-wall "L" flashing. The door itself also gets a door pan to overlap the "L".The weekend's getting better all the time....time for a refreshment I think!Again, thanks for all the input.

          1. DonK | Sep 09, 2007 04:57am | #15

            I think I would want to talk to the local Building Inspector/Dept. Building to specs is a good thing - you're off the hook if anybody else's name is on the plans, especially in CA.

            If it were my house, not for a customer - go with the steel and 2x6, like Framer says. Plans?  We don't need no stinkin' plans.

            Don K.

            EJG Homes     Renovations - New Construction - Rentals

  5. jja28 | Sep 09, 2007 12:00am | #5

    Hey guys,

    Thanks for the input so far.

    The architect wanting an engineer to go over it first, is his firm's way of covering their own ***. I can't argue with them on that point. The customer not wanting to go through the process of bringing an engineer in for this, is because he does not believe it's a structural issue (removing 1 of the 2 top plates).

    I myself am no engineer, but I cannot see any loss of strength by removing the one section of the lower top plate. After all, what carries the load, the header, the top plates, or both? One could definitely argue both (header and plates), but I'm more inclined to think it's the header.

    This is in California, and I know in different parts of the country, things are done differently. However, structure is structure, I think?

    As far as plans are concerned, this being a remodel, there are no specific drawings/plans for this particular item in the house (other than replacing the sliding door). (Plans for the rest of the job, yes....just not plans for this particular situation). There are no framing details (as of yet) of the wall and rough opening, so as of now, we have not deviated from anything that was planned. This is one of those things that has come up as the job has progressed and this situation was discovered.

    We've always done things with 2 top plates, however, I personally do not know IF 2 are required here in Ca in a situation like this (straight wall, no splices in top plate over header, etc)? I'll look into this more on Monday, but my gut says don't wait until Monday....lol

    Thanks again.

    1. User avater
      Sphere | Sep 09, 2007 12:04am | #6

      Don't you have seismic constraints in Ca.?  I'd think that that makes it even MORE important to have a stamped OK , somewhere along the line of fire.

      Sounds like you already made up your mind but want some of us to stroke your decision.  Thats never a good thing.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

      "If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"

      1. jja28 | Sep 09, 2007 12:23am | #8

        Don't you have seismic constraints in Ca.? I'd think that that makes it even MORE important to have a stamped OK , somewhere along the line of fire.

        Sounds like you already made up your mind but want some of us to stroke your decision. Thats never a good thing.

        Sphere, thanks for the reply,

        1) I have NOT made up my mind. It is NOT 100% my decision. It was not even MY idea to cut out part of the lower top plate. That idea was recommended by another contractor, and our lumber supplier when we were checking on the replacing of the doug fir header with an LVL header). Those were their recommendations, and as of yet, no action has been taken, other than researching a bit more.

        I could be a prick and tell the customer that there is no way in heck I am touching that thing until he gets an engineer to stamp it first, but we're (architect(s), ourselves, the custtomer) are trying to come up with possible solutions before just jumping into 1.

        I don't just jump on the first idea someone throws out and try and make it work w/o thinking through other options. I hope my original and subsequent posts did not make it sound like that was the case.

        1. User avater
          Sphere | Sep 09, 2007 12:32am | #10

          I wasn't trying to be crass, but it typed out that way (G) sorry.

          I'd really ponder it and at least maybe try to discuss it with an eng. even if it didn't get the full handshake and paper.

          But, you know whats best in CA, I sure don't, I've just read the postings of folks on here about the seismic stuff, and it DOES sound way overkill so , g'luck with that, I'll shut up.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

          "If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"

          1. jja28 | Sep 09, 2007 12:42am | #11

            Hey Sphere,It's all good....I think I may have come off too strong. Like I said, over the weekend, I personally, am trying to do as much research as possible, that's all.One other option, which the customers may not like is ordering a custom sized sliding door. If it gets to the point, where that gets us the same result (our deck slope, building integrity, etc), well then maybe that's one option that should seriously be looked at. However, one ends up with an extra 7' sliding door and a possible 2-3 week delay on that part of the job. Actually, 1st thing Monday morning, I'll probably call our window rep and ask him about that and if they'll credit us back anything on the one we have on site right now waiting to be installed.Seriously though, I welcome any comments, so I wasn't trying to be rude or anything. Sorry if it came out that way.

          2. User avater
            Sphere | Sep 09, 2007 01:03am | #12

            alls cool, its real easy to misconstrue what is being said or asked, and I am not always fast enough to stop my self..LOL

            This deal ya got going, I'd not bat an eye at doing what ever I had to do ( frame cutting wise) on MY house, but when I start doing structural excising on a customers house, I tend to be way cautious..once bitten, twice shy.

            Like framer said, a new header with a flitch may be all ya need, it don't sound like the roof load is excessive, but if N Ca. maybe snow is an issue?

            Good luck with it.

            Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

            "If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"

            Edited 9/8/2007 6:04 pm ET by Sphere

        2. Framer | Sep 09, 2007 09:08pm | #23

          Have you looked at my post #10 and thought about "Better Header"?http://www.betterheader.com/beamlegends.aspJoe Carola

          1. jja28 | Sep 09, 2007 09:46pm | #24

            Framer,Thanks and yes I looked at it yesterday. I like the idea of the steel plate sandwiched between 2 LVLs. If we replace the current header with a header of a smaller height, it will have to be signed off by the engineer. I have no problem with that, it's the customer. And like you said yesterday...that's his problem..lolI'll find out tomorrow am what the architect has come up with and if the customer is willing to re-think his position on the engineer.Personally, I would love to throw in a shorter sliding door, preferably 78" RO. That would solve every problem except a shorter door height. 2nd...I've never installed (or even thought of) a shorter (less than 80" RO) sliding door, so I don't even know if that's a code issue (egress, etc). I know our door/window company will make it they're allowed to.I know this all sounds like a messed up situation, and it is. Originally replacing the entire deck was NOT part of the job. Once we got into the job and found a couple more leaks here..a little rotted plywood there....etc...the scope of the job increased. This is why there was no "original drawing" for THIS particular phase of the job (re-sloping, raising the door if necessary, different header size if necessary, etc). Once we started uncovering issues, the architects went back to work and had to draw this, that and the other and take those to get them signed off by the city. Each time they do that, the customer's bill (from the Architects) has increased. Then when they say they want an engineer to sign off first, that's more money out of the customer's pocket. The customer originally did not plan on all this extra work (and expense), so he's getting a little agitated and just wants it done. This is nothing new in this line of work. It happens all the time on remodels. It's just a bit more difficult to try to get the customer to understand that.... "hey, even though you already paid the architects a boatload of money....issues have arisen that require you pay them (and their engineer) even more". Ok, looks like I've rambled on again.By the way....plenty of football on today!!

          2. Framer | Sep 09, 2007 10:03pm | #25

            I like the idea of the steel plate sandwiched between 2 LVLs.

            Using two lvl's won't work becasue that would make the header 4" in a 3-1/2" wall. You will have to see if the 2-2x6's will work with a 1/2" flitch plate.

             Joe Carola

    2. User avater
      SamT | Sep 09, 2007 04:48pm | #17

      I was born and raised in Caifornia, so I know the secret name for the state. If you promise not to tell anyone else, I can tell you that the secret name is.....

      CyAFORLItigatioNIASamT

      1. jja28 | Sep 09, 2007 06:46pm | #18

        After yesterday afternoon, I told myself I would try to ease up a bit and not think about it so much until Monday. But that didn't work. One more option that the Architect mentioned the other day was to rip down all the current floor/ceiling joists to get our slope. The joists below are all 2 x 12. Although being a heck of a lot of work (including pulling up a layer of plywood), we could get our slope by ripping down the joists, put on our plywood, install the door on a single 2x plate, not even tough the top plates. The joists would get ripped from roughly 11 1/4 to 8 1/4. They're 16 on center (roughly 28 of them) and the only thing they're supporting above is the plywood and finished deck. Granted, along with this, the fascia board that wraps around the house would go from a 2 x 12 on the sides.... ripped down at an angle the last 10 feet (depth of the deck) and have that same ripped down dimension along the back side.Would anyone be more (or less) inclined to consider this as an option or was this idea more hair-brained than the removing of the plate?By the way, good morning.

        1. theslateman | Sep 09, 2007 07:20pm | #19

          One vote for more hair brained

        2. User avater
          BillHartmann | Sep 09, 2007 08:31pm | #20

          One problem is that the joist or no longer "graded". The grading is based on the total width and riping them down require regrading.I don't know what the limit is on ripping them, but I 25% is way too much without detailed inspection of each joist or engineering..
          .
          A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.

          1. jja28 | Sep 09, 2007 08:39pm | #21

            Yeah, this thing is turning into more of a mess by the minute. It's one of those things where, no matter what you touch, it seems to affect something else or raise another issue.One question I have is regarding the sliding door heights. Is 80" (6'-8") the bare minimum height for code? One thing I hate about doing things on the weekend is it's difficult to get answers sometimes.Thanks again.

          2. User avater
            BillHartmann | Sep 09, 2007 09:00pm | #22

            "One question I have is regarding the sliding door heights. Is 80" (6'-8") the bare minimum height for code?"Sorry, I don't have any idea..
            .
            A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.

  6. mike4244 | Sep 09, 2007 04:48pm | #16

    A custom sliding door although expensive, is probably a lot less money and aggravation than an engineer and all the extra work involved.

    mike

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