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Hi folks!
I checked the archives and my own back issues but found nothing about this, so hoping someone can lend a hand, or even a suggestion.
Client wants a 100 year old marble mantel taken out of her room. It was put together in place and is waaay too heavy to be moved in situ (about 10 pieces make up the mantel, central plaque, columns etc) I removed the mantel shelf and it weighs about 70 pounds. It appears to be mortared to the brick of the fireplace.
GC says “only way” to take it out will destroy it. (A bit of insite on his opinion: he’s a paper contractor with a crew of wood butchers)
We didn’t like that answer. Now it is my turn to try.
a) Can i use acid to etch the mortar joints? I can test the marble in an inconspicuous area to ensure it won’t be harmed.
b) Instead of this guy’s chisel and crow bar approach, i think a dremel tool or concrete grinder attachment will chip at the mortar without creating a focus of impact, and thus, avoid chipping the marble. Any seconders?
c) Drywall repair is necessary anyway, so what about cutting it out from the side, ie attack it from behind?
FYI – There are no marble experts in this town…some guys lay it, some even lay it well, but no one wants to touch this.
So these were my brain storming gems.
All replies greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance, the gecko
Replies
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lynn - Why?
This sort of destruction assaults the very integrity of the house, assuming that the mantelpiece is original at 100 years old. Give me her phone number - I'll convince her that this is folly.
If the reason to come out is that she is selling the house and wants to take it with her, it can be molded in place for a cast stone/marble replica. If you are attempting to salvage it for your own use, you are stripping more than the value of the mantel from the house.
I can think of no other reason to do this than stupidity. There is a good reason why 'no one in town wants to touch this' - they have more sense (and sensibility) than your client.
Jeff
*What a shame. There is no value as to leaving it in place or is she changing the whole character of the house with the remodel? When Urban Renewal went through here in the 60's they tore down dozens of 150 yr old homes and destroyed marble fireplaces in every one. When you look at the pictures of what they took a wrecking ball to it makes you want to cry.
*Lynn, I would agree with George and Jeff here. Of every marble mantel fireplace unit that I have seen removed from a home in various antique architectural stores, they have all been cracked, broken, chipped, dented, stained or have missing sections. Sure big sums are asked and occasionally paid, repairs made and so on. I am sure that they can be removed without these defects, but a deep, serious "why" is asked here?
*Sorry guys...too late to convince anyone of folly.The fireplace used to be on the outside wall and they wanted (and got) a fireplace that sits between the master bath and master bedroom. That fire place is already in (glass and metal/cold and inhuman/ lakcing the same character found elsewhere in the house)BUT, that is where I came into the picture.I am trying to make the best of an icky situation: namely, at least SAVING something from the old house.The plan for it: to sit in the attic in case a future owner wants to use it.Trust me on this, the ONLY reason no one is touching this is because I won't let them. They were more than ready to rip it out until i literally pleaded with the owner to let me try and get it out in one piece. By the way, so you know where my heart is on this matter, I am just the decorative painter...talking to the general and owners like that could have meant my head...or at least this job, so stick the self righteous crap and give me some real suggestions. You're preaching to the choir boys...let's solve this one.Lynn
*Do you know any museum curators? Or restoration experts? Just a thought....
*Lynn'Don't use acid -- marble is a form of Calcium Carbonate and will dissolve far more readily than mortar.The proceedure for installation was usually, hearth laid first, then the front, then the side columns, last the mantel.These mantels/fire surrounds were installed against the brickwork and the plaster made good to them so start by chipping through the plaster, back to the brickwork all the way along, just above the mantel. You may be lucky enough to expose the cleats that secure the mantel, these were often secured with a cut nail into a mortar joint of the brickwork. Similarly cut away the plaster against the side supports, they were usually secured with cleats. If it was bedded properly, the mortar should be very soft, sand/lime or similar, and once you have removed the nails from the cleats, the pieces will lift apart.The most fragile piece will be the front, as that is usually the thinnest section and has been exposed to heat, which will make it brittle.Good luck, and let us know how you get on.
*i stick the self righteous crap It's not self-righteous, what you are describing is just wrong. The REAL SUGGESTION Lynn, to the owner, IS b "Leave it alone." Jeff
*Ian is right on here, I'd also think about supporting the mantel so that it doesn't tip, crumble or pitch off onto someones toe. Self righteous huh?, will you be carrying this heavy, likely to crack mantel to the attic? Don't just flop it on the floor, put it on some scrap 2x4s spaced close enough so that it's own weight doesn't cause it to crack or crumble any further.
*Lynn--The mercenary in me says to ask the owners, for the labor of removing it, if you can have the fireplace mantel. You obviously love it more than anyone else and it will suit your husbands propensity for the odd in the grain bin, no? Carry the pieces like glass, on edge instead of flat, or supported on a sheet of ply. Good on you for doing your best in a bad situation.
*b WBA At Your ServiceJeff, I agree with your belief. Unfortunately, we've all worked for fools that make it hard to enjoy our work. The decision to destroy had been made. Can you fault the gecko for jumping in the path of the wrecking ball to make an attempt at saving a piece of art ?
*Lynn,I'm with Splinter. If you manage to get this thing apart, it is a shame for it to languish in an attic. Give or find it a good home.Rich Beckman
*Thank you an splinter, Tim and Rich for concrete solutions. (mind the pun)Since I am the last one in there to fix ddry wall, texture and paint, there is no rush, so I am going to continue researching this. I had been looking for an old mason who put mantels like this together, and I think I am getting closer. Unfortunately, I am the one the museum people call for their weird requests, so "the buck stops here".Also, about concerns of transporting it, I have lots of experience transporting dinosaur bones, which I assure you are just as heavy and far more fragile than marble. And, they have to be packed for hundreds of miles, this just has to make it upstairs. (if you're curious about transporting dinosaurs, let me know and I can 'splain)My question today is, what tool am I using to chip away at the mortar bed? A super sharp grout knife? A rasp? (do they make rasps for cement?) An awl and lots of elbow grease?Sorry about the use of the term self-righteous, but I live in the present and there is no way to undo damage done months ago. I turned here for help through a situation I wish i could have avoided and got slammed by the people i needed support from.Oh yeah, that and i had pms....that always gets me off the hook...As for keeping the mantel myself: it won't go with the "newest" house plans. :) I already have 2 GORGEOUS mantels salvaged from an old house that was demolished because of fire damage and back taxes. I bribed the crew to let me get what i could out, so when Tim says i am jumping in the path of the wrecking ball, it is (literally) not the first time.Unfortunately, the ornate metal fire surrounds, grills, beautiful lighting and door hardware that i had seen the day earlier had been removed by the time i got there with my cash bribe. Their destination?Scrap metal...Jeff, I feel your pain.Lynn
*Lynn, where are you and do you know Jack Horner? He's one of "our" eccentrics... Anyway, what was the dinosaur gig?Instead of laborious hand work, if you have or can borrow a Dremel-type tool? If not, good excuse for a tool purchase! I would think you could one of the carbide rasp-like bits to go at the mortar joints. I've used mine to shape ceramic tiles that have to fit well where a straight cut won't work, so it worked on that material. Just an idea...I got a beautiful front door to my Victorian house and rooms full of 4 1/2" trim, corner blocks, etc., when a neighbor came over to ask if he could borrow my 7' bar to tear down the house he bought next to him--he wanted more lawn.
*There is a traditional tool, called here a 'plugging chisel'. It is used to cut out mortar joints in brickwork to insert flashing so it might be found either in plumbers supplies or hardware. I agree that finding someone who can explain to you the steps in the construction of the mantel so you can work out the order to dismantle it would be the best place to start.
*Lynn, you might stop by a building salvage company and ask them how they take them apart. Some chimney repair companies also get involved in mantle restoration, so that might be another local source. I like Wednesdays for roaming around for the impossible, err ya, I have bugging people down to an art form.Ian was right on about how they were "usually" constructed, you just take it apart in the reverse sequence. Get the plaster back, remove the top, remove the center medallion, then the sides. You will find that most of it is attached mechanically, but a neat tool, you may have heard of, for splitting apart the adhered pieces is a putty knife. I like Hyde 1 1/4" flexible. The bond at this age is only holding by force of habit, and you should have good results. This mantle can be restored to like new condition, good for you for trying to save it.
*Lynne,Good on 'ya for stepping up to save the thing...Get yourself a Fein Multimaster. About $180 through Amazon.com, tools & hardware division. It's an oscillating sander/saw, essentially the same as the plaster cast saw that an orthopedic doc uses.Buy the tile setter blade kit, ~$60. It has two or three carbide saws (about 3" in diameter, different thicknesses) that are designed to remove the grout between ceramic tiles.This is one cool tool. It is THE tool for the job you've taken on, although I'm not sure it will cut deep enough. It'll at least get you close. The Miltimaster is a hell of a lot easier to control than a cutoff disc in a right-angle grinder (like masons use to remove mortar from brickwork when repointing).I do a lot of old work electrical in old homes with plaster over both wood and rock lath. I use the Fein diamond blade, and it allows me to easily open a hole for a switchbox or to run wire--minimal noise, virtually no dust, can be very accurately controlled.I hope your billing a decent sum for your time to save this gem. Having it will considerably increase the value of the house on resale...Good luck.
*It's gonna crack. Either thru removal, or moving, or storage. Do your best to save it......but don't sneeze! Hopefully it doesn't have a big.....fragile grain running right thru it. If it does come out in one....several, one pieces.....think about building little crates right there to carry and store it in. Wood frame, plastic wrap, easy touch with foam insulation to hold it tight. As said before, carry on edge, and treat as glass. ....and.....get it to someone who cares. Jeff
*If it does break, I've heard of people having having these things steamed back together.
*b WBA At Your ServiceThe Fein is a great idea. To finish the cut you need a wire saw that is impregnated with carbide to finish the cut. Or you could use it for the whole cut and skip the Fein if you don't feel like springing for the expense of the tool. Now if I could just remember where you get this wire.....
*Lynn,Saw this advertised in the back of JLC.http://www.groutgrabber.com/ I haven't tried it but it looks interesting. Thought it might help.Jerry
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Hi folks!
I checked the archives and my own back issues but found nothing about this, so hoping someone can lend a hand, or even a suggestion.
Client wants a 100 year old marble mantel taken out of her room. It was put together in place and is waaay too heavy to be moved in situ (about 10 pieces make up the mantel, central plaque, columns etc) I removed the mantel shelf and it weighs about 70 pounds. It appears to be mortared to the brick of the fireplace.
GC says "only way" to take it out will destroy it. (A bit of insite on his opinion: he's a paper contractor with a crew of wood butchers)
We didn't like that answer. Now it is my turn to try.
a) Can i use acid to etch the mortar joints? I can test the marble in an inconspicuous area to ensure it won't be harmed.
b) Instead of this guy's chisel and crow bar approach, i think a dremel tool or concrete grinder attachment will chip at the mortar without creating a focus of impact, and thus, avoid chipping the marble. Any seconders?
c) Drywall repair is necessary anyway, so what about cutting it out from the side, ie attack it from behind?
FYI - There are no marble experts in this town...some guys lay it, some even lay it well, but no one wants to touch this.
So these were my brain storming gems.
All replies greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance, the gecko