Replies

1. 
   mizshredder2 | Oct 15, 2006 02:36am | #1

   http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=utf-8&fr=slv8-ccle&p=define%20linoleum

   URL above will give ya a little education re linoleum

   vi·nyl  View Image  (vView ImageView ImagenView Imagel)

   NOUN:

   1. The univalent chemical radical CH₂CH, derived from ethylene.
   2. Any of various compounds containing the vinyl radical, typically highly reactive, easily polymerized, and used as basic materials for plastics.
   3. Any of various typically tough, flexible, shiny plastics, often used for coverings and clothing.
   4. Phonograph records considered as a group: a secondhand store that buys and sells vinyl.

   If house was built in 1951 it had some sort of original floor covering.  Possibly wood...  later had 4 or 5 additional new floor coverings installed over that original - so only the oldest of them at the bottommost layers have the highest probability of containing haz materials.

   re ASBESTOS:

   you might want to look at the links from this URL:

   http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=utf-8&fr=slv8-ccle&p=define%20asbestos

   as to your myriad other questions - I'm sure the PROs on this forum will be posting or along to post back at ya soon.

   meanwhile:  welcome to Breaktime!

   DUM SPIRO SPERO:  "While I breathe I hope"

1. 
   Pierre1 | Oct 15, 2006 05:28am | #9

   The evolution of the flooring industry certainly is interesting.

   This from the Congoleum Corporation's website:

   Congoleum: More than 100 years of Progress in Floor Coverings

   Congoleum Corporation, a major manufacturer of resilient sheet and tile floorcoverings, traces its origins back more than 100 years to Kirkcaldy, Scotland. It was there, during the mid-nineteenth century, that Michael Nairn expanded his family's successful sailcloth business into the manufacture of painted floorcloths. Local skeptics called the new enterprise "Nairn's Folly."

   But people stopped laughing when Nairn's painted floorcloths quickly became a popular item, as they were a practical and inexpensive way of covering the swept dirt floors that were the standard in working-class homes of that period. The business grew further under the direction of Nairn's son, Sir Michael Nairn, and gradually evolved into the company that is now Congoleum Corporation.

   Following the wave of emigration to the U.S. that occurred in the mid-to-late nineteenth century, the Nairn family arrived in the late 1880's looking for new opportunities in an expanding and hospitable business environment. The Nairns located in Kearny, New Jersey, and began to manufacture linoleum, a product they had developed from the original painted floorcloths.

   Linoleum, the precursor of contemporary resilient floors, was a hard, smooth flooring made from a solidified mixture of linseed oil and ground cork laid on a backing of canvas or burlap. It was more durable than the canvas floorcloths and was easier to keep clean. For many people, linoleum made it possible to maintain a consistently tidy appearance in the home for the first time. Linoleum was a practical choice for a majority of people of that period, as only wealthy families could afford the luxury of wood, marble and ceramic flooring.

   The Nairns continued to manufacture linoleum through the early 1900's, and their business flourished. In the early 1920's, the family joined forces with a supplier in Erie, Pennsylvania, which manufactured a three-foot wide simulated wood grain product used to border area rugs and linoleum. This product was known as Congoleum, because the asphalt materials used to make it came from the Belgian Congo in Africa. The new company called itself Congoleum-Nairn.

   Congoleum-Nairn continued to sell Congoleum Gold Seal Rugs and Nairn linoleum through the late 1930's, until its researchers started experimenting with a new material called vinyl. However, further research into developing vinyl flooring was interrupted when World War II began. Following the war, the company continued to grow in the rapidly expanding housing market of that period.

   In the late 1950's, Congoleum-Nairn introduced 12-foot wide sheet flooring made out of vinyl. This flooring was a totally man-made product that offered consumers more in terms of durability, convenience of installation and styling than its predecessors. Over the following decades, the company introduced a number of other technological innovations that have since become standards in the resilient flooring industry.

   http://www.congoleum.com/features.php#advantages 

1. 
   mizshredder2 | Oct 15, 2006 08:44pm | #13

   Tks for sharing that (I love history! never did as a kid...but now that I've got some of my own, that seems to have changed! <g>)DUM SPIRO SPERO:  "While I breathe I hope"

1. 
   Piffin | Oct 16, 2006 12:52am | #15

   The Congoleum spiel WAS indeed interesting, buit keep in mind the context of PR by owners of the family business. They claim to have invented the linoleum about a hunmdred years ago. You asked me how do I know so much...I probably don't know all that, but I just don't forget much of what I hear.I was in Virginia visiting Washington's home there and while on the tour, on the way through the dining room, we were specificly asked not to steep on the lino under the table as it was possibly one of the oldest surviving examples of - and she described the process I reported for doing this. Said that the name came from Lin Oil. And this was in a house that was already over a hundred years old when the Congoleum family claims to have invented it. Maybe she was yanking our chains, but I know that their scripts are pretty much pre-approved by the committee in charge there. I prefer to think that the Congoleum family business developed it further when they added the ground cork to the mix to improve on the old.Then they laid claim to the rights for the product.They did a darn good job of marketing too, apparantly. 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   mizshredder2 | Oct 16, 2006 01:10am | #16

   a good point that..of..."consider the source"!

    

   I toured Washington's home (Mt. Vernon) also.  Beautiful location being right there by the water and all.  I got a little grossed out at the wooden teeth bit... sure am glad we've come a long way since those days; although I'll always do all I can to avoid visiting a dentist!DUM SPIRO SPERO:  "While I breathe I hope"

2. 
   BillHartmann | Oct 16, 2006 02:49am | #17

   Well I found several sources that give this information.http://inventors.about.com/od/lstartinventions/a/linoleum.htm"In 1860, Fredrick Walton invented linoleum the home floor covering.
   In 1860, rubber manufacturer Fredrick Walton invented linoleum the floor covering used in Victorian homes. Three years later, Walton received an English patent for linoleum. Walton was inspired to invent linoleum as a cheap substitute for a more expensive rubber composition called Kamptulicon. He got the idea from observing the skin on oxidized linseed oil that forms on paint.Linoleum is made of linseed oil, pigments, pine rosin and pine flour. Linoleum is manufactured by oxidizing linseed oil and adding the other ingredients to form a thick mixture called linoleum cement. The name linoleum comes from the Latin word, linum, which means flax, and oleum, which means oil. Linoleum was later replaced in popularity by vinyl floor coverings of the 1960s.Linoleum was later perfected by Scottish flooring manufacturer Michael Nairn, who introduced the inlaid patterning that linoleum is known for.Together with fellow inventor Fredrick Thomas Palmer, Fredrick Walton later invented Anaglypta and Lincrusta. Anaglypta and Lincrusta are two forms of Victorian-era embossed home wall coverings. Lincrusta is made of a linseed oil mixture and Anaglypta is made from cotton pulp."I suspect that Washington has painted floor cloth.http://www.floorcloth-natasha.com/picturepages/creport.htm"Painted flooring preceded rolled canvases on the floor, which were rarely available to anyone but the wealthy until the early 1800s. The use of rolled canvases was both decorative and utilitarian. Affluent Americans life George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and Peter Faneuil (an American merchant) are known to have imported their rolled canvases from England. The value of these floorcloths is attested to by their inclusion in estate inventories and public auctions.George Washington's handwritten documents confirm that he bought a floorcloth for his estate, Mount Vernon, from Roberts and Company for $14.28 (a considerable sum at the time). Thomas Jefferson bought green floorcloths from England, one for the small south dining room of the White House, at a cost of $3 per square yard, and another for the Great Hall entrance. Jefferson also used floorcloths in his Monticello home. And an inventory listing at the time John Adams departed the White House contained a notation for one floorcloth.Jeanne Gearin, a floorcloth historian and artist from Falmouth, Mass., stated in her booklet, Historical Floorcloths: "In 1827, Samuel Perkins and Son of Boston, Mass., advertised for sale a large and elegant assortment of painted floorcloths, without seams, some in imitation of Brussels' carpet, from $1.37 1/2 to $2.25 per square yard."About this time, rolled canvases came to be known as floorcloths, although many were called oilcloths (oylcloths). Oilcloth is still the common term used in England. There are many theories for why rolled canvases were called oilcloths. One reason is that oil-based paints and linseed oil -- which took months to dry -- were commonly used on the canvases. "

3. 
   rjw | Oct 16, 2006 05:33am | #19

   Errr, didn't Al whatzhizname invent it? <G,D&R>

   Youth and Enthusiasm Are No Match

   For Age and Treachery

2. 
   Piffin | Oct 15, 2006 03:10am | #2

   Just keep it wetted and scrape. Wear a n-100 respirator and clean up often into plastic garbage bags.

   Most people who just throw on a N-100 don't get full protection because it takes some training and because any facial hair turns it into about and N-70 anyways. Most times, I just use a regular N-95

   Biggest concern is Do Not bring it home with you. Have a coveralls at that job and leave them there, then bag it and launder ita couple times or hang out and spray it down with the hose or sprinkler for a half day. by wearing same clothes home into your house, you expose somebody else, perhaps less strong and healthy, to the fibres. commercail remediators use Tyvek suits, bag them up, and throw them away.

   Overall, relax about it, wear gloves and don't pick your nose. One floor won't kill you. Well, do you smoke? That is a critical factor for contracting the diseases that follow asbestos expoosure. Tars in lung make it easier for the fibres to stick and harder for the lung tissue to heal.

   Another thought - Why are you buying this? What level of finish are you going for?

   If just to flip it or as a moderate income rental ( if I may assume from the age of the house and probably the neighborhood) then just glue and screw a 3/8 ply underlayment over it and revinyl

    

    

   Welcome to the
   Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
    where ...
   Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   BillB82 | Nov 15, 2006 08:47am | #26

   Thank you for all of your input on this. I really needed to hear from experienced people on this matter. Good advice is hard to get.

3. 
   Piffin | Oct 15, 2006 03:19am | #3

   I'll add to mizshredder's thesis.

   Linoleum - the word comes from the oil of linseeds, which I think are flax seeds, the flax once a very common crop grown for linen. general washington's home had real linoleum on some of the floors.
   To do real linoleum, you could buy some canvas awning or sailclothe material and nail the edges to the floor, using three penny fine nails at about 1"OC and being sure to stretch it as tight as possible.

   Then start painting it with linseed oil - up to ten coats or so when it seems smooth and does not show the thread count anymore. Then you can paint a design on it, follwed by a few more top coats of linseed oil.

   Since this cures slowly, you will not be able to use the floor for six months at a guess, but the house will be very aromatic.

   Or, you could go to a flooring center and buy a roll of mass produced linoleum which has been re-introduced to the market in the past ten years more or less. But it can absorb stains and is fairly expensive.

    

    

   Welcome to the
   Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
    where ...
   Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   mizshredder2 | Oct 15, 2006 03:22am | #4

   linseed = seed of flax

   milkbones to ya

   (dang Pif - what Don'T you know?)DUM SPIRO SPERO:  "While I breathe I hope"

4. 
   IMERC | Oct 15, 2006 03:26am | #5

   Due to the age of the house am I correct in assuming that the vinyl and/or the adhesive contains asbestos?

   yes.. very good chance...

   Can I also assume that this would be considered non friable asbestos?

   not neccessarily so because of the incapulization..

   Could I remove this linoleum by keeping the floor wet and scraping it up with a floor spade (while wearing a respirator)?

   make it a 6" wide and life would be easier...

   Should I glue and screw 1/4 plywood over the entire floor without removing the old linoleum and start fresh from there?

   if you will be tiling soon put down Hardie backer instead of ply.. infasct don't use ply at all..

   Can I frame a non structural wall over this plywood sitting on all of these layers of linoleum?

   you could.... frame to the original floor instead...

   I would rather remove the old flooring in case I need to replace any of the plywood subflooring

   better / best way...

   What is a prudent course of action?

   remove the original... repair as reqired.. frame... hardie backer.. tile..

    

    

   Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming

   WOW!!! What a Ride!

   Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

1. 
   Piffin | Oct 15, 2006 03:43am | #6

   I just noticed about the possible rot replacement. If you can see from under this floor and that is a likelyhood, save self some grief, get a circ saw and a NFG blade and rip it into small squares to make removeal easy to the joists. ( watch depth of cut and because o fdust from saw, this WOULD require the N-100 fitted properly and gogles. 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   IMERC | Oct 15, 2006 03:55am | #7

   Pif..

   using ply over all that would give him a rolling floor................. 

    

   Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->

   WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->

   Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

1. 
   BillHartmann | Oct 15, 2006 06:36am | #10

   With that much build up of the floor I would worry about head room.

1. 
   IMERC | Oct 15, 2006 06:41am | #11

   good point... 

    

   Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->

   WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->

   Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

2. 
   Piffin | Oct 15, 2006 05:15pm | #12

   Posssibly so. Lot of details I can't see from here 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   mizshredder2 | Oct 15, 2006 08:44pm | #14

   LMAO!!!DUM SPIRO SPERO:  "While I breathe I hope"

2. 
   rjw | Oct 16, 2006 05:26am | #18

   I liked your practical advice in the earlier post, but am a bit skeptical about creating and throwing around that much "sawdust" I think he should add sealing the room, creating negative pressure in it (relative to the reat of the house, and good HEPA vacuum cleaning when done (real HEPA, not consumer "HEPA")BTW, my understanding is that under the federal rules, a homeowner can do anything he wants - they only apply to contractors.Do you know if there are any states with stricter standards?

   Youth and Enthusiasm Are No Match

   For Age and Treachery

1. 
   Piffin | Oct 16, 2006 07:33pm | #20

   True, not a great thing as a standard practice, but like you mention, a HO can do what ever he wants which is the context here.maybe my cavalier attitude on this comes from having done this and more - much more - with asbestos in my life. I would run away from the ole pipe wraps or encapsulate them before going near one again, but I was required to handle them at one time. On roofs, we regularly handled loose asbestos fibres to coat cant strips and parapet walls to meet fire code and add longevity. never with a mask - tells you how long modern standards took to come into play.I don't smoke and tho I have some asthma and allegies, I have been checked for deeper respiratory problems three times and no sign of any asbestosis or other related diseases.but I will concede that when advising in matters like this, it is probably wiser and better to refraion from getting too wild 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   mizshredder2 | Oct 17, 2006 04:59pm | #21

   "Pif gone mild"

   nope

   nope

   just doesn't have the same appeal as

   "Pif gone WILD"!

   <g>DUM SPIRO SPERO:  "While I breathe I hope"

2. 
   rjw | Oct 17, 2006 06:42pm | #22

   As in so many things, no hard and fast answers.I would caution, though against using one's personal experience and "non-consequences" from exposure as a measure of risk.I smoked for years, haven't had lung cancer (so far) Did have a heart attack.My father smoked for years. No heart attack, but he did develop cancer.Health risks are a statistical matter.My understanding is that the folks who have experienced asbestosis (sp?) generally had massive exposures for long periods of, far more than a home owner is likely to experience, so that their risk would be much higher than the homeowners.And everyone has their own way of evaluation risk and reacting to it.I internally cringe whenever I have to mention the "A" word in my inspections, although most folks seem to react pretty rationally.

   Youth and Enthusiasm Are No Match

   For Age and Treachery

3. 
   Piffin | Oct 17, 2006 09:10pm | #23

   when they get irrational is when they hear removal/disposal costs. 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

4. 
   Pierre1 | Oct 18, 2006 05:02am | #24

   That's usually how it is: folk will agree nasty stuff needs to be properly contained and legally disposed of....until they find out how much it will cost them. lol. 

5. 
   Pierre1 | Oct 15, 2006 05:20am | #8

   Save your shoulders and back unnecessary strain: rent an electric lino scraper.

   Make sure the blade is sharp, without nicks; or ask the dealer to put a new blade on. This machine is easy to control; it cuts by oscillating the blade side-to-side and it does not stir up debris the way that ramming a floor scraper does. Try to avoid cutting nails with it. Don't run the oscillating blade into your foot. ;)

   Incidentally, with that many layers, the original baseboards probably look pretty short in that room. Adding 1/4" ply or 5/16" Pro-board on top of these old layers, and new lino on top of that, will further shrink the base.

    

1. 
   BillB82 | Nov 15, 2006 08:45am | #25

   Thanks for your input. I need all the help I can get.