Replies

1. 
   jjwalters | Dec 18, 2003 12:09am | #1

   If it were me........I'd go with a post and beam and forget about collar ties and stuff............Make sure the roof is stable by fitting a beam on posts (one on each end and maybe one at the point where you will be removing the second floor. A right sized beam.suported by posts (or wall pockets) will suport the load without a second floor at all. .............get a somebody to come and look at it before you do anything. You don't need an engineer, but you do need on-hand advice. 

   There are fast carpenters who care..... there are slow carpenters who care more.....there are half fast carpenters who could care less......
2. 
   RobertSteele | Dec 18, 2003 01:14am | #2

   Greetings Boston ...I must admit your post dosnt clearify everything for me, though I suspect you may be right about it being balloon framed due to the time it was built and the fact that the studs are running from the mudsill. Is the kitchen on the second floor?or are you talking about a coffered ceiling for a first floor kitchen?  Well ive alot on my mind today so i will get back to you again ...if its a cathedralceiling for the second floor with an existing roof there will be many things to consider ie. shall you replace the roof itself or completly rebuild on , are the rafters and pitch sufficeint for a cathedral ceiling and common air space will your existing footing pass?Often aprouching the permit office stirs up alot of unforseen prob lems and in days gone by alot of farmers just built  what they thought was a sound addition that nowadays wouldnt pass for a permit. Iwill get back to you again.   keep your hammer claw away from the head of the nail and put a hard hat on. 

3. 
   fdampier5 | Dec 18, 2003 02:20am | #3

   I understand your goal and I think you can achieve it.. the only serious question is will the resulting two piece wall be strong enough..

     chances are if it's ballon framed you will be able to achieve what you want the way you want to do it..

      On the other hand..

           If you were to knock down the whole ara, the time you save may well allow you to do some really wonderfull things with timbers and SIPS..

       Thinking outside the box like that I wound up timberframing..  do it yourself (Get a local guy in to give you a hand once in a while,  and it will be better, stronger and much nicer) plus it will wind up at the same cost..

1. 
   JohnSprung | Dec 18, 2003 03:10am | #4

   If it's platform framed, the "two piece" wall will definitely not be strong enough, and will require major work.  One reasonable option might be to demo and rebuild it.  But if you have the room, it might be more cost effective to add on what you want while keeping what you have.

   -- J.S.

2. 
   homebaseboston | Dec 18, 2003 07:19pm | #6

   Excellent insights, gang, thank you.

   Frenchy, I was thinking the same thing re: the two piece wall if it is not balloon framed.  I'm no engineer, but that would definitely be a structural weak point.  Perhaps some steel attached at the intersection?  3/4 ply glued and screwed over the entire wall for (is it "shear'?) strength.  Definitely worth an engineer on that one.  Anyone seen any clever solutions for that one?

   As I thought about it some more, there are definitely some rafter ties near the peak of the roof.  They are short ones, but the roof is fairly small.  I doubt very highly that the second floor is doing much re: keeping the walls in place.

   In answer to the other question:  This is a first floor kitchen (over a basement).  The space above is currently an unheated storage space.  Maybe 6 feet at the high point, so overall the highest point in the finished room would only be about 13 - 14 feet (7'+ ceilings on first floor).

   You may be right, though, guys with regard to code.  I could be in for a world of hurt, there... though I know the BI in our town well and he's actually a pretty creative guy (seriously :-), so it may not be as bad as in some cases.

   Thanks for the input, guys, I look forward to further thoughts.

   Brian

   _____________________________HomeBase________  Kitchen & Bath Builders, LLC

   Brian Roberts, Manager

1. 
   SamT | Dec 18, 2003 08:13pm | #7

   The space above is currently an unheated storage space.  Maybe 6 feet at the high point, so overall the highest point in the finished room would only be about 13 - 14 feet (7'+ ceilings on first floor).

   Hmmm, let's see. Storage space. . . unheated. . . only 6' at the hi-point. . .

   This is sounding more and more do-able.

   What is the height, floor-to-roof, at the exterior wall?

   7' ceiling. . .

   Indicative of baloon framing. Can you cut an accessway in the exterior wall at floor level in the storage room and give us more info about the floor-to-wall framing?

   SamT

   "You will do me the justice to remember that I have always strenuously supported the right of every man to his opinion, however different that opinion may be to mine. He who denies to another this right, makes a slave of himself to his present opinion, because he precludes himself the right of changing it."   Thomas Paine

2. 
   fdampier5 | Dec 19, 2003 04:57am | #8

   You could sister another  longer 2x4 along side of the existing one and that would strengthen the joint between the first and second floor  (assuming they line up)

     rather see you use some timbers there though.. (just my thing)

1. 
   homebaseboston | Dec 20, 2003 01:11am | #9

   Frenchy, I know a timberframer when I see one ;) (Actually been following your posts for quite a long time).

   I'm not sure I get you with re: to the 2X4 sister, unless it turns out to be balloon frame.  I'll see if I can cut a little "non-commital" access hole to see what the framing looks like.  Still be curious if anyone has seen a solid fix for the two piece wall problem.  I'll keep an eye on this post, and report back once I have an access.

   Brian_____________________________HomeBase________  Kitchen & Bath Builders, LLC

   Brian Roberts, Manager

1. 
   fdampier5 | Dec 21, 2003 08:04pm | #10

   Let me see if I can explain it to you,  (I could scketch it out in two seconds but to use this language stuff is a skill I have yet to master) 

        take all of the  horizontal 2x4's off from the top plate up..  you should have a bunch of vertical 2x4's about 16 inches on center..   (please don't worry if you have 2x6's or things are 24 inches on center  it's the principle I''m trying to convey)

         take another 2x4 and nail it along side of the existing 2x4 only let it stick out longer. Now if you are real lucky the 2x4's from the second story will line up with the 2x4 right below,  (If not, don't worry, this will still work)   

     assuming that the overlap between top and bottom 2x4's is sufficent you'll have enough rigidity to overcome the weak second floor joint..

        If they don't line up it gets a little more complex because you'll have to use some 2x4's as filler material or double up on the 2x4's.

     Another words where below you have 16 on center you might now have 8 on center or 3 & 13 on center on the second floor..

     I hope that is clearer to you than it reads to me.. as a said a sketch would clear it right up..

      

4. 
   FastEddie1 | Dec 18, 2003 05:36am | #5

   Just finished something similar but not quite as bold.  I remodeled a 24' x 24' section of a house, removed two bearing columns and one bearing wall, changed the ceiling from flat to vaulted...but it was only a one story house.  Best thing I did was buy an engineers time befopre doing anything.

   Do it right, or do it twice.