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Replies
Change orders....
lots and lots of change orders.
Liberty = Freedom from unjust or undue governmental control.
American Heritage Dictionary
Assuming this isn't a typical HO/contractor relationship, I'd want to be sure that I'd be paid in a timely manner and not in accordance with some long-winded, purchase order based, corporate payment schedule. I have one very wealthy client, not a multi-million dollar mansion, but not a shack either. He'll call from time to time with some project or repair, no bids necessary, just do-it sort of thing. When I send the bill, it gets faxed to some office in NJ and occasionally the smaller invoices seem to work their way to the bottom of some faceless clerk's in-basket. I always get paid but not always right away.
Seems like the wealthiest clients take the longest time to pay, not because they can't, but because they seem to have a zillion other things worth much more money taking up their time. For some, a few thousand dollars isn't a cash flow issue, and they forget, or simply don't realize, that for some of us it is.
Sounds like an interesting project, tell us more.
I wish there was more to tell. However, my project at this time simply consists of business planning.-T
"Seems like the wealthiest clients take the longest time to pay"Not my experience at all.Most of mine are quite wealthy. some are prompt and others less so, same with the budget minded retirees or family people. Some are prompt and some aren't. I see it more as a matter of personal habit than anything else.It is true that some of the very wealthy use an accountant to pay the bills and some of them have a system of doing it once a week or two weeks...The bigger thing I notice with the wealthy is that when they want a minor project done, they want it done NOW
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
what are we renovating ...
like ... the whole place, demo'd to the studs and adding another smaller mansion as an addition ...
or ... the kitchen.
and multi-million dollar like 1.5M ....
or 50M.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
He's just adding another list to his notebook for when the big day comes....It is a potentially interesting topic though
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Man . . . I don't know. I'm planning on starting with cabinet installations, so let's begin there. After that I want to round of the businesses' finish repertoire and then move on to kitchen remodels.<!----><!----><!---->
This is the idea behind my post:<!----><!---->
The majority of carpenters (not the majority on Breaktime, but the majority in existence) seem to be intimidated by the though of working on multi million dollar mansions. You know, the kind of mansions with gold toilet seats owned by laser eye surgeons. It seems as if these carpenters are afraid they'll get in over their head and wind up being sued. However, I want to work on those mansions because I want the money.<!----><!---->
So what do I need to know to run a business that works on mansions with gold toilet seats (however many million that is), as opposes to your average 1-3 hundred thousand dollar home?<!----><!---->
FNbenthayer mentioned “high end millwork, wiring, plumbing, finishes, and hardware.†Is this the stuff like PEX plumbing, or are we talking stuff like gold plumbing? BTW, any special techniques for installing gold toilet seats?<!----><!---->-T
>>The majority of carpenters (not the majority on Breaktime, but the majority in existence) seem to be intimidated by the though of working on multi million dollar mansions. You know, the kind of mansions with gold toilet seats owned by laser eye surgeons. It seems as if these carpenters are afraid they'll get in over their head and wind up being sued.
This isn't what I've observed over many years working in residential. The biggest money and the biggest houses are handled by the best contractors. In a lot of cases the owner has an architect and interior designer who bring in the companies that they know can handle the work. Around here, if you want a job working on a waterfront palace you are going to have to take it away from one of the few very good contractors capable of doing the job. Good luck with that.
If I were you, I would plan on many years breaking into this level. You'll be starting with very average houses and undesirable jobs, making $0.25 per hour for the first 40 hours of your week and $0.00 for the next 40. Give it 5-10 years and see where you are.
I don't know. I worked with an old union capenter that worked on houses like that on the side. He didn't even really have a business. I don't know if he made any money at it, but what's this thing about making $0.25 per hour for the first 40 hours of your week and $0.00 for the next 40?
I wonder what Jerrald Hayes or Sonny Lycos or Mike Smith would think about a business like that. I already worked for half of $0.25 an hour, I'm not doing that again. That's why I'm doing my homework. I don't plan on starting off on the mansions first thing, but half of $0.25 per hour, just how bad of a carpenter do you think I am?-T
journeyman,
how good a carpenter you are--has surprisingly little to do with it. It might be important---but it is going to be kind of far down the list.
some of the other guys have already mentioned some of the things that are gonna come in ABOVE " how good a Carpenter ?"-- like who do you know?, how are you going to get a foot in the door? can you service the clientelle?
some years ago, here on breaktime somebody mentioned a catch phrase" work for the classes/eat with the masses OR work for the masses/eat with the classes.
in my limmited experience i have found that to be true---you can do QUITE well for yourself--doing some fairley mundane work---if you approach it right.
i am sure there are a lot of guys on this board who pride themselves on doing "high end work"-they might be suprised to find they can be bought and sold by a guy running a business that does nothing except replace hot water heaters!
i have a good friend who has a very nice landscaping business-- numerous high level accounts----know what makes a large percentage of his money?-spreading salt in a chain of resteraunt parking lots-NOT the high end garden installation,hardscaping or lawn work that he is known for--just spreading salt.
if you are an excellent carpenter--- I suspect you have excellent organizational skills. applying THOSE skills in a different way may ultimately be MORE lucrative than what you might imagine installing gold toilet seats to be.
just my opinion,
stephen
Edited 2/19/2008 11:44 am ET by Hazlett
I don't know anything about your carpentry skills, although I gather that you are a union carp and I don't know if that has exposed you much to what it takes to be a high-end residential GC. You have made quite a few posts re business here and at JLC and as far as I can tell you are getting ready to go into business for yourself. My comments about $0.25 per hour are about how most of us have to make huge sacrifices financially to get our businesses off the ground, including working for far too little money. Anyway, I'll maintain my position--the big-money jobs for wealthy owners are controlled by the architects/designers and by the contractors who have the credentials and the polish to take them on. I would not expect anything from that realm to land in your lap until you have spent many years developing yourself and your business to be qualified.
In the recent past I have worked on a couple of jobs that are probably what you are imagining. In one case the GC was a second-generation builder running the business his dad started in the 1950s... the son had 30 years experience and the father 50 years. One of the most respected outfits in town. In the other the GC is also a guy with 30+ years experience and has built for people you have heard of. You are not going to be taking any work away from these guys real soon, but I think that if you start small and have adequate financial resources to stick it out you can get there. This seems to me to be a terrible time in the economy to go out alone. I would hang onto your journeyman card for at least another year.
"how good a carpenter you are--has surprisingly little to do with it. It might be important---but it is going to be kind of far down the list."+1When projects get big and expensive the first thing you need to forget is your tool belt. Running the project/site is a full time job. That means you are checking subs work, coordinating deliveries, processing changes/updating contracts and communicating with the Arch/designer/client etc. You are responsible, the buck stops with you.There is a lot to learn about planning, organization, and commitment especially when you realize some item you forgot has a 6 week lead time and you just informed the client yesterday that you'll be out in two weeks.From what I've read of your posts your best course might lead you to a job with a high end contractor. You'll learn the standards of product and service. If you're smart, you'll be offered a supervisory position and learn even more. It's much easier to earn while you learn from guys who make it work than to resurrect a reputation.Also, get used to the idea that while hubby earns the money, the lady of the house is more often your client. If you have issues with taking direction from women you'll never (ever) make it.Jim
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.- Fyodor Dostoyevski
"just how bad of a carpenter do you think I am?"Are we talking about carpentry skills or business skills?
If you want to be the contrator on big jobs, it is business skills that will make you money
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I would agree that the architects and designers will make a lot of the recomendations for the higher end homes.
My primary line of work is custom and built in cabinetry, and finish trim work
About five years ago I was asked to install some built in cabinets by a local cabinetmaker friend of mine. (It is a second generation architectural millwork shop, and they are great craftsmen - not a single cnc machine in the shop). Anyway, they typically will not install, but the designer sort of insisted on it.
I was a little intimidated at first just based on the cost of the materials I was working with. However, all went well and it has led to more and more jobs.
Maybe it is just luck, but I have found most customers easy to work with. More often than not the interior designer is harder to please than the H.O. Some of the jobs may be difficult to setup for, adding lots of time to the job, or perhaps have to adjust a work day schedule to meet the clients demands. A lot of the same issues that arise working on your typical mcmansion, but can be proportionately larger.
I would make sure your liability insurance is up to par. Many of these clients like expensive art adorning their homes.
And these H.O's also have wealthy friends whom they love to entertain (show off their recently completed projects to). But I think the name they usually pass along is the name of the designer, therefore that is the relationship that pays off in the long run.
I agree with David. You are failing to grasp the reality that there aren't a lot of Mansions looking for skilled trades. You are thinking about breaking into a market that requires that you have substantial credentials and a substantial track record. The path to that mansion is riddled with pot holes. Many of the holes will suck up you, your truck and all your tools. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
"I want to work on those mansions because I want the money"It is not the kinfd of thing you luck into. You have top prove yourself to work up to it. The proverb that he who is trustworthy in little things will be found worthy of much is applicabl;e
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
<You know, the kind of mansions with gold toilet seats >
I'll have you know, I have worked on a house with a bidet formerly owned by Dion Sanders - no joke!
Forrest
I'll have you know, I have worked on a house with a bidet formerly owned by Dion Sanders - no joke!
LOL! I bet you have!
-T
Edited 2/20/2008 7:37 pm ET by JourneymanCarpenterT
couldn't help but notice the topic of million dollar homes vs. smaller jobs and volume.
My goal in my last business was to run it like a McDonalds. Not nasty food
service, but small on time orders and lots of them. I ran a boatyard with my
folks and brother. The competing yard up the Bay was building Multi million dollar
custom yachts and always had a few real lookers on the yard. Everyone talked
about the beautiful boats. We concentrated on the smaller 30' -50' Yachts and
even let diy's in the yard. The owner of the other yard told me how much of a
PITA these huge projects were and that he took them on sometimes just to
keep a crew working. And in the long haul, a period of a couple of years not
making really all that much money. Mean while , I,m turning around about 1,000
boats a year on haulouts and bottom paint. Its alot easier to get $500 out of
1,000 people than to get $500,000 out of one . Quality timely service is where
the money that I care about comes from. I don't care about how much the
house is worth
2 weekstops,
funny you should mention boat building.
i read a book within the last year that perfectly illustrates your point
for the life of me, i can't recall the title or the author
but the book detailed the building of a classic wooden boat--really engrossing- so interesting i actually bought a couple issues of "Wooden Boat " magazine
anyhow-- the book described quite clearley how precariously it ended up working on those "dream boats'
a lot of the actual workers-- had re-arranged their lives-made real sacrifices in order to work on one guys "dream boat"----and howw that one boat came close to bankrupting the boat yard.
wish i could remember the author-- becaue i believe he wrote previous books about becoming a restraunt chef-and a later book about renovating old houses( the house was located maybe 40 minutes away from me)
anyhow- thanks for jogging my memory- i always meant to track down the "chef" book.
thanks,
stephen
Sounds like the author Michael Ruhlman.
http://www.ruhlman.com/books.html
I really enjoyed his "Making...Soul...and Reach of a Chef" books, I'll have to put Wooden Boats on my list.
Yes!!- that IS the guy.
funny- i have seen both the Bourdain episodes he was on--and did not connect the guy.
for me--- i think of him as the wooden boat guy and the book about renovating the house in cleveland heights( I actually like one of the restraunts he mentions in the book)
but i never connected him with the Bourdain show, LOL---
funny he was out of context to me in that arena----and THAT is the arena he is "known" in, LOL
Stephen
Any relation to Colonel Sanders?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
The largest house I ever worked on as an employee of another company would probably be $10 or $12 Million in todays dollars.
The largest on my own would be maybe $8 million in todays dollars.
Keep a clean truck. Shave or be neatly trimmed. Wear work clothes that don't look like you got them out of a dumpster. Use tools that don't look like they are held together with Duct Tape and chewing gum. Be bale to carry on an adult conversation about other than work.
And the biggest, take a second to think before you act. My Loser-in-law once set a $125 cordless drill down on a $35K rug while helping me. The owner lost his mind.
One of my last jobs before packing it in and moving on to this job was on a house of maybe $5 Million. Very.....um......"artistic" design.
The guy had worked his whole life to build up a company. He had no idea what it was worth and damn was he surprised when someone offered to buy it. He was treating himself and his wife to this new shack. He had two new Ferraris in the garage, an endless lap pool for his dogs, etc, etc....................
When I finished he thanked me because I was the only guy whose crew hadn't: Wrecked or broken something, swore in front of his wife and kids, made is driveway look like the Alaskan shore line after some drunken harbor pilot got his DUI and was able to carry on a pleasant conversation.
Never questioned my bill (which was large for what I did).
Having said all of that? People with money want what they want and they don't mind paying for it.
Be ready for changes and have a system to manage them. You'll need it. Don't be affraid of adding to that price. You'll need it.
We just finished a multi-million dollar 2 bedroom apartment.....Location, location, location ;>)
Your job is to deliver a completed home, not prove you are smarter or have better taste than the Arch or designer.
If you or a sub make a mistake, own up to it, correct it and move on. Trying to pass blame or hide mistakes will destroy your relationship. Successful folks make mistakes all the time, the difference between them and your average tradesman is they admit it and move on a little smarter.
Schedule, you need to define when each phase of the project will be completed.
Control, you are either in charge or you are a sub. If the client brings in subs outside of your contract you need to in writing; a) establish supervisory control (usually 15%) b) declare "no control" and transfer any liability for damage or delays ($ per diem) caused by the "foreign" sub.
Communication, thrice weekly updates. At least one with with photos.
Quality of finish has to be the top. Subs need to understand this so they can plan/bid accordingly. Your sub contracts should spell it all out plainly.
You need to keep your mouth shut as to taste and style. It's OK to suggest an additional light or switch but you are getting paid produce what has be spec'd.
Familiarize yourself with high end millwork, wiring, plumbing, finishes, and hardware etc. and what the costs and lead times are.
There's lots more but I'm off to another one.
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.
- Fyodor Dostoyevski
Good Post FN: thanks. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
very good Concise listing
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I've had a couple of very wealthy clients with historic estates that I spent years working for. One was a well known celebrity in the film and music industry.
The best approach I found is to find out if they have a general over all plan, and break that plan down into manageable projects. In my experience there are of course architects, designers, landscape planners,engineers, money managers etc that you have to work with. Working with too many trades on a place can be a real nuisance, and so planning is a must.
If there is an interior designer, find out what kind of person they are and then build a good relationship with them around that. They can be a real PITA and make your life miserable if you let them, mostly because they are constantly changing their minds at the last second and some of the things they will want are almost impossible. Each one is different I suppose but just have those change-order forms ready.
Here are some things you have to be prepared for: (these are typical to the trades no matter what)
Cost over runs
Changes (tons of those)
Hold ups (as a result of changes)
Sight unseen building surprises. If it's an old mansion there will be those.
If they like you, be prepared to be in it for the long run. It's great.
Make each project a manageable thing. It's usually good to develop a good rapport-relationship with THE OWNER,as well as all of the middle men.
Have a payment schedule because the above post was right about the uber-wealthy and their money in general. It's not that they don't want to pay, it's because they are busy, or they have left for a week or two without telling you. Some may be different, it all depends, just get that taken care of.
I have great memories of working with these clients because they kept me on for many years until I moved out of the area. One in particular was an Arts & Crafts estate that I helped bring back from almost total ruin. I worked on that place for over 8 years.
Most of this stuff is the same as if you were renovating a regular size house, just on a bigger scale.
You need to be a great project manager, have contacts with designers/architects that like you and trust you enough to put their neck on the line when they bring you to the table, you need to be adaptable to change and be ready to charge for it, you need to provide a level of service that goes beyond what some people might call reasonable. You need to display professionalism and integrity at every moment. If they start to think you are taking advantage of them b/c you know they're loaded you are done.
On the service note, I have one client who I consider to be fairly well off, his schedule is very busy and far less adaptable then mine. I've scheduled meetings with him at 5pm on a Sunday afternoon. On the flip side of it he is very respectful of me and treats me as an equal.
You need to align yourself with trade contractors that can handle the project and can provide the same level of service you develop.
You need to be a company with a track record and most importantly you need to network with people who can help you land this scale of job. These jobs are not usually given to the "lowest bidder" but rather the contractors are either pre-selected or pre-screened before someone picks up the phone to call you.
All that said why the fascination with multi-million dollar mansions? There are few of them versus the many 100-300K homes. If you scan the list of top income earners for residential remodeling or replacement companies the list is made up of mostly large corporations that work projects on your average home. Companies that replace windows with Vinyl units for 150 per or install vinyl siding.
You're biggest mistake is thinking that working for the mega rich can make you any richer then working for the average Joe blow. What it really boils down to is how good of a business man are you, your level of drive and dedication to get where you want to be, and what level of service can you provide so you can continually grow your business with referrals and repeat clients.
I grew up doing basic remodeling with my Dad.
Got away from remodeling and spent a coupla years in sales.
Got burned out in sales and decided to go back into remodeling.
Put myself thru trade school, and when I graduated ... decided I wanted to work high end jobs ... so that's what I focused on.
Knew full well I couldn't do it on my own ...
so I interviewed at high end companies. Found a nice little design / build firm that won all sorta awards each year.
That's where I overcame the average carps fear of working in those million dollar houses and working with million dollar materials. The more you're around it ... the more second nature it becomes.
sooner or later U gotta hack apart a cabinet that's worth more than your work van.
coupla times more ... it's not so scary after all.
worked once with a cabinet maker ... 2 rooms ... bath and dressing area ... something like $60K in cabs ... not including installation. One morning I measured the last bit of custom run, custom stained, custom finished base ... went to lunch ...
came back and cut it 1/2" too short! Instead of beating or firing me on the spot ...
the cab maker said ... "kid, U can't F-Up anything we can't fix ..."
that was good enough for me ... been trying to live up to that since.
after I left that design / build firm ... I decided I wanted to do high end cab installs.
again ... knwoing full well I can't drum up that level of business on my own ...
I cold call and interview at high end kitchen and bath dealers.
dine /wwork with the masses or what ever that logic was ...
don't work for cabinet subbing.
only high end has a chance of paying decent rates.
mid and low end is a shark filled feeding frenzy with everyone out to undercut everyone else.
so my advice ... figure out which direction you'd like to end up at ...
and sub your way to the top.
get's your foot in the door ... up's the skill set ... and makes the connections.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
jeff,
work for the classes,eat with the masses vs, work for the masses,eat with the classes
betcha it works in cabinet installs ALSO--look at CagIV's post--about the vinyl window installs.
If there wasn't GOOD money there-- Home Depot and Lowes wouldn't be involved in it.
Problem is--there isn't good money for the INSTALLER. That doesn't mean ,however-that there isn't good money in that business.
stephen
BTW--- there is, I suspect,-----surprisingly good money in a lot of businesses that you wouldn't think would have it in them
somne time ago my youngest son bounced one of our trucks off a curb. Bent 2 wheels- one of the tires went immediately flat---the other just wouldn't hold air for more than 18 hours due to the slightly bent rim. yesterday I call around-locate a used rim for a F150--when i go to buy it the salvage yard throws in the tire it came with
BUT-the tire isn't the same size as the other tires on the truck( it's too big)--and even though this wheel is to just be a spare-- I want them all the same size
so I go off to my usual used tire dealer--who takes the perfectly good tire off my bent wheel--puts it on my newly acquired used wheel and balances it--and charges me $10.90---PLUS he keeps the"too big" tire--plus he keeps the slightly bent rim
he will sell the "too big" tire-to somebody else for $30-$40--and I suspect he has a way of fixing that rim--which sells for $50.----
ho hum transactions-- but I gotta tell you his place is always hopping. there ae always 3-4 people in line in front of me--and within minutes of arriving there will be several people behind me. I couldn't do what he does-- he has a gift for thinking on his feet and juggling several things at once-- he will be talking on the phone with one customer, ringing up the sale for another customer and directing the work flow of 2-3 guys with a spare hand. i have seen him several times plug tires while talking on the phone---and the phone never stops ringing.
sure-it's a ho-hum business---and I doubt he has the same sense of artistic accomplishement as someone doing high end cabinet installs---but I would love to take a peek in his books--- because that business is a cash cow.
blue and I often mention a book called "the millionare next door"------ read the book and you will see there is a LOT of money in some pretty ho-hum things that you wouldn't think could generate that kind of cash
best wishes,
stephen
"Problem is--there isn't good money for the INSTALLER. That doesn't mean ,however-that there isn't good money in that business."
true ... but I was trying to keep my post besed in reality.
There's big money in being elected President ...
but the guy asked about working on Mansions ...
not "how to get rich quick" ...
and not how HD or Lowes makes money.
U wanna make money installing ... install something expensive.
that's a good start.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
nonsense jeff--- if he wants to make GOOD money--doesn't matter WHAT he installs--his earning is limmited to his 2 hands
or-he can use the organization skills he likely has as a carpenter( remember that suggestion?)
and use those organizational skills to profit from the installations of MANY hands.
as an employer, or coordinating sub contractors-or some way else
from the OP's posts--- the money seems to be currently the thing for him-not the "glamour" of being a high end cabinet installer
but what do i know Jeff?----- i was too dumb to know that it can't be done--so i just went ahead and did it
while you were smart enough to know that you couldn't crack that market--and so you didn't do it
installing cabinets, installing mufflers, installing roofs, installing used tires, installing circular staircases, installing hot water heaters-----installing you name it---who is making the money?--not the installer.
The O.P. clearly has talents he isn't tapping yet---- if he starts tapping them he can multiply his earnings many times over.
Best wishes ,
stephen
what's the title of this thread?
Renovating Mansions ...
or Volume, Volume, Volume ?
when someone starts a thread about making the most money ...
your thots would be right at the top of the list.
this time ... the dude asked about working on million dollar mansions.
and a said he was thinking along the lines of cab install first.
Sorry I confused you and stayed on topic.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
YOU are gonna admonish me about staying on topic?
hey, you are a good sport and all Jeff--but don't make me laugh,:>)
( note the smiley face icon which indicates i am in the spirit of the thing)
BTW----- the OP's real intent-seems to be to make money------- his whole "working on mansions" plan would appear to just be a means to an end---the end being-- he wants to make more money
so yes-- i think i did stay pretty much on topic
sorry if i disappointed you.,LOL
stephen