I’m trying get a fix on a floor problem in a raised ranch home built on cinder block piers with an outer chain wall. I’ve replaced the floor (both sub and finish using ext grade plywood with felt paper below)once already thru most of the home where I have had vinyl floor or cermaic installed. The areas where there is carpet hasn’t had the same problem. My guess is that the moisture is accumulating on the back of the tile but passing thru the carpet. The moisture is either migrating up from the ground or just condensation from the tempature change from inside and out. I have already opened up significant passages in the outer chain walls to increase the air flow, doesn’t seem to have solved the problem. I am now considering adding in FG insulation and using TYVEk in the floor joist to help stop the moisture. I am absolutely open to suggestions, I think I only have one more floor replacement left in me. I’ve also put plastic sheeting down throughout the crawlspace to help control any moisture that would migrate up, still no fix. help! & thanks. olejoe
Replies
You are going to need to provide a location/climate and a better description of the "moisture" that you are experiencing.
Sorry I'm just getting back but have been out of town. Actually we live down close to the mouth of the mississippi river, in Buras La. The climate is very damp. The moisture, my best guess is nothing I can actually feel or see, just that the flooring is deteriorating below my vinyl floor. I'm figuring its getting moist from a temp change or just that the moisture from the crawlspace cannot get thru the tile then the wood dry rots.
And what is a "chain wall"?
Are you saying that above the floor joists, you have subfloor, then tarpaper, then underlayment, then finish flooring whether vinyl or carpet?
Where is your insulation? Do you have any vapor barrier? What part of the country are you in? What material is the underlayment?
Have you checked for leaks in the plumbing? What kind of heat do you have?
Tyvek won't do a thing for you in horizontal moisture control.
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Edited 2/27/2004 1:32:43 PM ET by piffin
<Tyvek won't do a thing for you in horizontal moisture control.> Whoa! Whoa! Hey! Cough Cough Help! Help!
Wait a minute Teach, can I get an addendum to that with a bit of detail?
My mind flutters back to a job of an old cabin sitting on the side of a hill years back. You scare me Pif.
<Tyvek won't do a thing for you in horizontal moisture control.>
Here fishy fishy....
Explanations please.
Inquiring minds just got to know.
Window screening is more water repelent....
Here fishy fishy....
Tyvek is an air barrier, not a water barrier. Sure, it can slow down transmission a bit but won't stop it.
Now if you would just get that cabin off the side of that hill so it isn't laying down anymore, the horizontal comment won't scare you. Tell that cabin to get up off it's sills and get to work. If there's one thing i can't stand, it's a cabin that lays down on the job. How do you get the chimney to draw, for cryin' out loud?
Wanna hear a true confession?
I once used tyvek for underlayment on a roof. I had the bituthene along the eave and snow coming in and the distance to the ridge was just the size of that nine foot roll over there. It was a 9/12 and that snow came off nice and easy in the morning. Two taps with the hammer and it all went a sliding. The roof was steep enough that I never worried about it leaking since so many guys din't even use tarpaper underlayment. since then, I have learned that wasn't the smartest thing to do, but the roof has long since passed the fifteen yeaar mark and no problems with it.
Oh Man, Now every one knows the deep dark truth about Piffin. Just liek the Wizard of Odds, he is only human.
;-)
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Well, what he did was put fiberglass batts in the floor joists and covered it with tyvek with the thought that any moisture that got in there would be able to find its way out.
That's probably 5 or so years back.
Bulk of the crawl is 3 to 5 ft from the dirt reaching in to the top of the knoll/front of building which is probably 18".
Might there be a cause of alarm here?
I wouldn't be worrying about it. Probably doing just as he planned.
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And I bet you used dw screws to fasten the Tyvek! <g>
Jon Blakemore
How is the rain water runoff directed at the outside of the foundation?
Are the gutter outlets exiting 10 feet from the house..or more?
Are you flooding the crawlspace with each new rainstorm?
Is there a groundwater spring under the house?
What is a "chain wall"?
If you peel back the crawlspace poly covering and reach into the soil with your hand and grab a fistfull of mother earth....is it a ball of mud?
What critters do you find in the crawlspace?
Is the domestic water service under the house leakiing below ground level?
Same question for the septic lines.
I your house air conditioned? Where is the condensate drain exit?
Would it be feasible to A/C the crawlspace? After all an A/C is a giant dehumidifier. In order to do that the crawl space must be sealed from air and water leaks.
More Questions than Answers.............Iron Helix
Plastic on the ground and more ventillation in the crawlspace is the first step. But if you live anywhere north of the Mason-Dixon line:
Add fiberglass insulation to the bottom of the floor, and staple Tyvek across as an infiltration barrier. Note that Tyvek DOES allow moisture to pass through, but will prevent air from drafting through the FG, and that's what you want to prevent.
Just an ignorant homeowner's curiousity: wouldn't tar paper stapled up block the air drafting, the moisture, and also be less expensive?
It would be a lot harder to handle, more fragile, wouldn't block the air as well (too many seams) and would trap moisture vs letting it escape.
Again sorry I haven't gotten back but have been out of town. So I'm figuring I have enough ventilation in my chain wall(cinder blocks 8x16"x 24" high), my only other option would be to damn near tear it out completely and just rebuild the pillars. But back to the floor, again, the last time I replaced it I layed 15# felt on top the floor joist, the used 3/4" plywood subfloor with 1/2 fir plywood finish floor. No there were no leaks from plumbing. I would have figure that the felt would have eliminated the moisture from below, but it didn't. This time the plan was to lay FG in between the joist and possibly either cover the bottom of the joist with TYVEK or cut strips and staple it into place to help hold the insulation in place. I have covered the entire crawl space with plastic sheeting. This is a damp and humid climate in South Louisiana, but there has to be a permanent solution. thanks.
One of the most basic principles tofollow in this business is to never place wood trapped between two vapour stops. Your wood flooring material is so contained between tarpaper below and the vinyl above. Any moisture that gets to it from whatever source is trapped there
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OLEJOE,
I think you need more ventilation. Test this by using a moisture meter on your joist and subfloor, should be below 18%. I would cut the felt from the subfloor and spray with Timbor to control the rot also. It also protects against insects. Formosan there yet?
I'm about 4 hours upriver from you in St. Francisville.
http://www.pestproducts.com/timbor.htm
KK
Edited 3/2/2004 10:01:19 PM ET by kkearney
I'm still not clear on what this perimeter wall is. Sounds like just drylaid block with no ventilation???????????
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Appreciate the kickback, I'll have to check the moisture level and get back with you and thanks for the info on the treatment for the floor. I may not have enough ventilation, but here should be a formula to figure for that. I've seen homes with less that don't seem to have this problem, but you've got to take into consideration drainage. But I'd really like to know how to figure for the ideal amount of natural ventilation required.
OLEJOE,
The books say 1 sq foot per 1500 sq foot for poly covered crawl space. 1 sq foot per 150 sq foot for uncovered. I think this is way too low because of the damage I've seen with supposedly vented foundations. I think these recomendations are for the frozen north, ie. above I-20. They don't realize the humidity level in the gulf south.
Either open this area up more or close it down and run some conditioned air and/or a dehumidifier down there.
Redfish runnin'?
KK