Replacement Windows – Advice
Hello – I have an 1880’s Victorian house with a number of large sash double hung windows – all dimension 3 x 5 feet. They are all single pane and I have refurbished all of them to open the bottom sash only. I have weather stripped as best as I can. They all have aluminum storms.
Question: Will I see much if any benefit from replacing with a double glazed replacement window? We hate that they remain to have drafts despite my work on them and that we cannot really clean the damn things. Forever a source of frustration. (The storms are the cleaning problem).
So is there enoug hpotential energy saving to warrant replacing them? What should I expect to pay and what would you recommned in terms of replacement? I would prefer to not take off all of the original trim inside the house and the frames are in good shape. Are the replacements that go into the existing frames acceptable? Are there products that will maintain the look of the current double hung window and yet allow modern conveniences?
Thanks
Mark
Replies
your's is a major dilemma in the renovation of my own 1900 home and the majority of my projects - good windows demand big bucks
there are a lot of steps / considerations / experiences w/ from Kolbe to Pella to Pozzi - their replacement sashes to what is now the finest product I've seen ( and your big windows / scale make this work ) and that is the new Marvin complete inserts
hoping your windows have easy access from outside - whole window rolls in from outside to the inside stops on your present window and then stopped in from outside
for mine about 10 sq ft instead of your 15 / window and w/ 12 lites ( simulated divided lites ) primed int & ext low e w/ argon etc brass hdwe etc... $ 750 per unit
Mr. Harkins seems to have some good notes.
Definately Low-e glass. In your case the benefit seems to go far beyond simply the change in u-value from single w/ storm to low-e. You should get a huge benefit from reduced air leakage. ... but only if you treat the original hollow frames during the retrofit (e.g. filling them w/ foam). Without that, you may end up w/ nearly as much air leakage as what you started with ... well there is a fair amount of potential leakage in just the sashes, but the old double hung weight hollows are often a huge source of air leakage.
Are your walls insulated? I did an older house ... just used vinyl almond color to match paint trim ... ordered w/out fins ... removed the inner sash stops, popped them in and installed a new small stop/trim piece leaving all interior/exterior trim in place .... much lower tech/cost/nice than what it sounds like Mr. Harkins was talking about. Pay your money, take your choice. If restoration is a MAJOR issue, it pays to go the extra mile. If not an issue, your options are greater.
You also now have the choice of glass type (e.g. obscure glass for bathrooms, reflective glass for problem summer sun, etc.).
MarkMcCleod
If they have drafts chances are those drafts are coming form either poor fitment or the weight pockets.. where the sash cords are tied to weights. if you simply replace the windows without sealing up those pockets you won't gain a lot.. if you replace those windows and seal up the pockets major improvements could be expected. Cost depends on if you want to sit back and write a check when finished or do the actual work yourself..
It's not all that hard but maybe you don't want to do it, are afraid of it, or can afford to have someone else do things like this for you..
Mark,
You should be able to weather strip those original windows to be air-tight. What kind of weather stripping did you use? I use the more modern silicone leaf seals installed on new parting beads. The only real problem area is the meeting rail seal. I prefer to place the seal on the upper sash lock rail because it does not interfere with the sash lock or muntin bars. You can't do this if you only treat the lower sash.
Thanks everyone for your thoughts. The weight boxes are hollow currently empty except for the weights so filling them would be part of the refit work. I will not do the work myself - for me it is simply a matter of time - something I don't have enought of. 10 years ago I might have but not now. There is good access to the windows from outside.When I refurbished the windows I put a locking prass weatherstip on the upper rail of the lower rail/lower rail of the upper sash. There is a second strip in a dado in the underside of the lower sash lower rail. The storms seem to be in good shape however the draft still is there - mostly along the stiles.
There are pre formed weight box covers at http://www.efi.org . I was just their looking for something else and saw them. I think they are under weatherization.
Mark,
You kind of lost me there, but I think you are saying that you weather stripped the meeting rails, and now the draft is from the sides. I deal with the stiles by applying leaf seals to the exterior side of the upper parting bead, and the interior side of the lower parting bead. The only areas to be closed up after this are the gaps left at the sides of the meeting rails where they meet the parting bead (closed with "bumpers" or metal wrapped felt blocks), and the pulleys of the lower sash.This may seem like a lot of work, but it really does not take too long. There are several "tuning" steps to make to make sure the windows run smoothly, but you should have eliminated about 90% of the heat loss with the draft stopped.The beauty of your 1880 windows is in the antique glass and period muntin profiles. You won't get anything like this in replacements. I know it seems to make economic sense to replace the windows in terms of cost and long term energy benefits, but the look is truly horrible in a Victorian home, and as of my last PELLA quote for all wood Architect Series replacements (replacing 1970's metal replacements for a 1910 mansion), the materials & installation labor cost are now comparable to restoration costs. Once the LEED standards are changed to include restoration of historic fabric, there may be financial benefits in preserving your windows and upgrading with weather stripping.
Mark,
The original windows in your house are valuable like the original parts of an antique car. Imagine replacing the engine in a '67 Mustang with an engine from a new car.
You can save your existing windows if you put decent storms on the house, like from Harvey or Allied.
Look at John Leek's site, Historic Homeworks, for some solutions that will enhance the value of your house and save energy over the long term.
Harold
http://historichomeworks.com/forum
Good comments Harold.
As for Will I see much if any benefit from replacing with a double glazed replacement window from the OP.
IMO you would never see any financial benefit (esp if not doing it DIY) and then in 20-30 years you would have to put up with degraded fogged/etched windows. Good storm windows, esp if you have easy access to the outside, are the way to go, and a 2" spacing with air has about the same overall R value as 1/2" argon filled.
I know the comment on that to come, "the NEW 2008 windows are better sealed and wont EVER fog" -- BS >:(
yes good storms can do a good job ... but they won't stop air leakage through the weight box. IMO unless the exterior storms are 'original' equipment, it is like putting a new mirror on the old mustang. The aluminum storms IMO are a bit funky and detracting.
Resoration of old stuff is a tough choice and a tough job. If you wanted to get serious, you might do double glazing in newly made sash frames ... but then you still have air leakage to deal with (particularly the weight box).
I somewhat disagree w/ the financial benefit of replacement windows. If the install is straight forward, the labor is low so it comes down to e.g. vinyl or higher grade wood based window frames. Once you deal with the air leakage issues, the financial benefit could be MANY times more than simply the change in U-value from say 0.8 to 0.34. Air leakage savings could amount to a lot. Comfort goes up as well, so maybe the stat setpoint goes down a little. If leakage is as high as it sounds comparison of the simple u-value change is the small part of the evaluation.
Agree, I was refering only to the insulated galss aspect, infiltration much more important.
Did not see any posts in this tread referencing the Nov 2007 FHB article on this topic, forget the title, but that would be a good read for the OP.
The Marvin Ultimate inserts - http://www.marvin.com/default.aspx?page=Ultimate_Insert_Double_Hung are great - and easy to clean.
Jeff
Looks nice!! Always good to have options.
mark.... with an unlimited budget.. and a desire to restore to original condition
then obviously .... you have to recondition and use techniques that will do that
but..... if i had an old victorian.... i'd save the interior trim ... and replace the windows with new primary windows
my choice would be an Andersen Woodwright or 400 series with SDL lights and spacer bars ( or forget the spacer bars )
my second choice would be a Marvin
i do not want to revisit these windows year after year
and i don't want to screw around with aluminum storms and weather stripping and dealing with window weight pockets and parting strips and painting sash
nope...... i'd put in new windows in the old RO's.... there are enough sizes that this can usually be accomodated
replacement windows are a compromise... the new products are very nice..... but they are still a compromiseMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Honestly, Mike I don't know how it makes any sense to use a vinyl exterior window in a historic structure. That's why Marvin - wood interior, wood exterior.
Jeff
Jeff...... people are well intentioned but don't do well in execution
they spend inordinate amounts of money restoring things , then can't be bothered maintaining them
so that is why things like Fypon, Azek, Fiber Cement siding and vinyl clad windows are good for the average person
if this was Teddy Roosevelt's victorian in Cold Harbor.... maybe ( of course,the park service is notorious for defering maintenance too )
but ... the average person does not want to deal with contractors, painters, glazers... etc .... for the rest of their lives
people with unlimited budgets can have wood windows.... and they can all be painted during the off-season when they are in Boca or Palm Springs
the rest of us don't need the hassle
and i defy you to tell me your wood windows look better from the street than my vinyl clad ones
Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 9/3/2008 11:04 am ET by MikeSmith
As one who spent 18 months or so completely and perfectly restoring my 100+ year old primary sashes, I would also strongly recommend Mike's advice about the replacement window inserts. It comes down to time or money. Me, I have 40+ hours in each of 24 windows. If I had paid myself $20 an hour, that would have completely paid for the highest end Marvin replacements.Of course, wifey and I had way more time than money.I would strongly second the poster who suggested going with the wood interior / wood exterior Marvins, too. Don't risk failure with clad windows when you spend so much money. Just finish the exterior wood correctly and you're good.
Your house is 60 years older than mine, but I just replaced 10 double hung single pane windows with low E thermopanes and I'm glad I did.
I chose wood interior and aluminum exterior to avoid exterior maintenance issues.
Will I see much if any benefit from replacing with a double glazed replacement window?
In general, no. Even the best replacement windows are equivalent to an R factor in the range of 7 or so - basically, a window is a hole in the wall. If the replacement windows are not installed properly, as most are not, the R factor is more likely to be in the range of 1 or 2.
Replacement windows in most cases cost more than the energy they will save over their lifetime, so they never "pay back". Appearance issues are a subjective thing, but to get windows comparable to what you have now, you are talking big bucks.
If you are willing to spend the time and money, you can inexpensively refurbish the windows to perform as well or better than any "modern" window. If you are interested in that route, I can provide some web sites and sources of information.
However, it is not for the faint of heart. Plan on 8 to 10 hours of effort per window, particularly when you are learning the process. The last one will go much quicker :-)
Depending on the process is the key. My windows were 13 over 1 victorian windows with lots of 3x3 squares of old glass. Took forever to get them out of the ancient glazing, scrape 100 years of thick paint, clean all the crud off, set, bed and reglaze. Installing spring bronze is a real treat. Restoring broken muntins with custom milled wood and/or epoxy is a pain. Re-roping the weights, yay! Weatherstripping the wood storm sashes, great.Take whatever time estimate you think it'll take you fix a window and put a zero behind it and that's how long it will truly take to do it right.Me, well, I am now an expert in window restoration and I can honestly say that I will NEVER do another one again.Marvin has a great selection of products that will replace you historic windows and do it well. Worth the money to save the hassle.
You've got that right ;o) (in terms of how much work it is).
By the way, 13 over 1??? Must have been a larger central lite surrounded by 12??Jeff
Edited 9/3/2008 9:52 pm ET by Jeff_Clarke
I disagree w/ your downplay of the efficiency of the replacement window. Given you get rid of the weight pocket source of air leakage and the air leakage of the old wood sash, frame and trim. Not saying the new one will be devoid of these defficiencies, but they will be immensely improved. A tested U-value of say 0.33 is going to be much superior to the U-val of the old at say 1.1 ... and then the savings in air leakage (and the associated increased comfort) will be many times the improvement over the old (energy wise). If youre existing windows are a big energy problem, you may easily pay for the new ones in energy savings over say maybe 10 years (depending on location and energy rates).
You can't just look at payback in energy anyway. Why not just get rid of the windows and install an insulated wall? The value of windows goes without saying ... they are important. They are expensive. It pays to do it right. He will only do it once, now, he should go the extra mile and make the best choice for his situation. And feel good about it. I respect your opinion and comments ... just adding food for thought and another point of view. There is no such thing as bad choices ... some are just better than others and this kind of thing can create some tough choices. It's worth spending some time and thought into it.
I can say one thing about my epic window restoration project: They don't leak any air. I have fully weatherstripped primary sashes (spring bronze), fully weatherstripped wood storm sashes, and all interior and exterior trim caulked and sealed. The sash pockets are not a source of air leakage when you have everything properly sealed up.I would suggest that well-built double or triple track aluminum storm windows, properly installed and sealed, will improve your energy use as well as anything else, and cost you 1/5-1/8 of new replacement windows. I installed these on my rental house, prefinished with color to match my trim, and they look good and the tenants are pleased as punch.Another way to look at windows are as a "wear-item". Some say all replacement windows are junk and no way they will last 100+ years that your originals do. OK, so then what if I install $150.00 vinyl replacements now and then just replace 'em again in 10-20 years when they fall apart? It only takes an hour apiece to replace... This is the approach I take on my rental properties.
I disagree w/ your downplay of the efficiency of the replacement window.
I may not have been clear that I meant a properly refurbished original window, and assuming the original window was good quality ( i.e. a good double hung wood window from the 1930's, for example). Furthermore, to achieve the energy performance of a new, properly installed, high efficiency window, you have to use a storm window.
HUD did some studies a while back to evaluate the energy performance - that's the basis for my conclusions. I'll see if I can find them online.
I would suggest that anyone considering window replacement first need ask – why?
Is it aesthetic? Is it energy performance? Is it maintenance? Is it saving money?
All good reasons and both newer windows and restoration will affect the answers to the questions.
First, and as we all know, energy costs are rising – rapidly. People are being pinched by the cost of heating and cooling their homes. Many folks take a look at their drafty old windows and then consider replacement as a way to save energy. They contact a salesman (or go to the neighborhood big box) and the salesman offers them these remarkable savings – often based on phantom numbers – and all they have to do is install these potentially really expensive replacement windows.
Second, aesthetic...original windows in an older home will usually look better than will replacements – unless the homeowner is considering very high-end replacements – which can be amazingly expensive.
Aesthetic considerations are especially true in a home that is much older – meaning that while I might throw out that consideration for a mid-century ranch; for a turn-of-the-century Victorian there is no question that restoring the original windows may be well worth the effort.
While it is possible to buy windows that are virtually identical to the originals – and that are likely to be much more energy efficient – you can also pay a pot-load of money for those replicas. I would suggest that for most people that this isn't a realistic option.
From an aesthetic standpoint - and assuming that the windows in the home are original and are part of the charm and historical value of the home I would personally opt to restore the originals. I really like older windows and I also think it is a shame to potentially destroy the look of a home with poorly matching replacement parts – be it windows or other.
However, from a strictly performance or energy standpoint the best restoration job available on original single pane windows – even when adding storms – will not get the same energy performance numbers that you can get with a high-performance window made today. While I know that many restoration fans will not agree with that statement, it is a simple fact.
Good replacement windows will outperform the originals if energy perfromance (and possibly comfort) is the only consideration. R-value is only one aspect of window performance and R-value only takes into account the unit's resistance to conductive thermal transfer. As much as 60% (or more) of a window's energy performance is due to thermal radiation and not to conduction loss or gain and clear glass does a very poor job blocking thermal radiation. Clear glass allows heat into the home in summer and allows it out in winter.
But a good restoration job combined with good storm windows will often result in energy savings – and possibly a good bit of comfort improvement – when compared with the condition of older windows prior to the restoration. There can certainly be energy value as well as aesthetic value when restoring the original windows. But, while restoration should see energy savings when comparing the before and after condition of the original windows, comparing energy performance to replacement windows can be a different consideration - depending on the quality of the replacement units.
When considering window replacement and what people don't always know – and salesmen don’t know or don’t care about – is that a home is a complete operating system and windows are only part of that system. Installing new windows in an older home may save money and it may make a home more comfortable, but it also may be a matter of throwing money down a well so far as return on investment goes – depending on the overall energy consideration and performance of the remainder of the house “systemâ€.
Replacing windows without addressing other factors in the home may not be either energy-smart or dollar-smart. As a homeowner you need to determine where your energy dollars are being wasted - and if that is your primary concern.
Before I spent a penny on window replacement – strictly for potential energy and money savings – I would invest in a whole house energy audit to find out exactly where I am losing energy – and money. Then I would plan accordingly. In a tight, well-insulated house, poor windows can account for 50% or more of energy loss. In a loose, not well insulated house, windows may account for only 20% or even less of the total energy loss.
One suggestion might be to restore the original windows and then install good quality storms. Obviously, if a homeowner wants the convenience of little or no maintenance then installing storms becomes a much less attractive option (and btw, there is no such thing as zero maintenance when discussing parts of a home - there may be little maintenance, but never zero). Installing storm windows – especially on second or third story windows - @#&#$%@%# - in my opinion of course.
One could also consider installing permanent aluminum storm/screen combinations, but in that case why bother restoring the original windows since those aluminum things aren’t particularly efficient and they may look even worse than cheap replacement windows.
Another option might be interior storms – at least for some windows – but again mounting storm windows is certainly not a fun job – and then you have to have a place to store them when they aren’t being used and the consideration of the potential need for an egress.
And of course one can install “good†wood combination storms - which may be the best option, but certainly not the cheapest – if you go with really quality product.
But restoration with storms will mean involvement in the operation of the home - something not all people want to do.