Hi all:
I am planning on replacing 10-12 ailing Anderson Awning style windows with vinyl replacement ones. These windows don’t open/close well, and when they do, they don’t close tightly or open enough to get a decent amount of air circulation, etc. Last, but not least, they are not efficient at all.
My problem is this: usually, one removes all but the outer stops to replace double hung windows with new vinyl replacements. How do you best approach a awning style replaced by double hungs? There are no outside stops, only inside ones. I’m planning on removing the windows, putting in outside stops and then installing the replacements. Any ideas, suggestions or cautions? I am, of course, planning on caulking and sealing as best I can when I do this.
thanks!
René
Replies
Seems to me you'll have a thickness problem if you try to reuse the existing stops. If the awning windows you are replacing have a single sash, the inner (only) stop must be about 1+1/2" or 1+3/4" in from the outside face of the jamb, isn't it? A double hung would have to be about twice that thickness so the sash can bypass each other.
Something else - those must be some mighty tall awning windows if you are gonna put double hungs in there, must have a fixed glass unit, or a stack of awnings...or maybe I'm really confused again...
Anyway, I'd remove the awning sash. Then remove the inner (only) stop. Install a new outer stop, install the replacement unit, and install a new inner stop.
OR, if you have jamb extensions and casing already in place, I'd consider removing the sash, filling the jamb so there is no rabbet, then installing stops and double hung unit in this slightly smaller opening. It could save you a ton of trouble if you didn't have to get into replacing any interior or exterior trim.
Kind of hard to say what the best approach is without seeing the specific job.
The vinal windows I use most often (Insullate brand) offer a narrower jamb for this, and other applications. Other manufacturers probably do too.
Dear Jim:
Thanks for your time and reply.
You said:
"Seems to me you'll have a thickness problem if you try to reuse the existing stops. If the awning windows you are replacing have a single sash, the inner (only) stop must be about 1+1/2" or 1+3/4" in from the outside face of the jamb, isn't it? . . . "
***
Absolutely!! I'll have a problem if I go with the existing stops where they are. As you note, these windows only have a single stop, the inner one. The exterior jambs are deep enough (> 6") so that if I leave the inner stop in place and set the vinyl replacement window from the outside, I'll have about 3/4" left. I think it would look weird, never mind the fact that I'll still need an outside stop!
As you also note, it will be a lot easier if no casing needs to be removed, etc. So, I was thinking that I should remove the windows, the inner stop, make new outer stops that will leave me some decent reveal, clean up the jamb, etc. -- just as you are suggesting. In fact, the procedure you've suggested seems to be more or less what I was thinking I should do.
My main problem is trying to figure out the best way to get the inner stop out without doing a bunch of damage. I've taken apart the interior trim on 2 windows (different parts of the house have slightly different installations) to see exactly what's going on. From what I can tell, the inner stops don't seem to be nailed or glued on, they may be rabbetted or formed from the same stock as the jamb. I don't know for sure, but for installation day I'm wondering how I'll cleanly cut the inner stops out.
These are Anderson single pane, probably 30-35 yrs. old (the age of the house). I don't know anything about awning windows at all!
You also said:
"Something else - those must be some mighty tall awning windows if you are gonna put double hungs in there, must have a fixed glass unit, or a stack of awnings...or maybe I'm really confused again...
***
Very astute observation. Most of the windows are ca. 44" W x 37" H, with an operating awning on the bottom half and a fixed pane on the top. Some smaller units are one operating pane.
Thanks very much for your suggestions and time!
Rene
Are you dead set on not touching the exterior trim?
Once again...w/o seeing it......tought to call......but sometimes it's best to back to square one.......instead of retrofitting something that's not made for that exact application.
Any chance of getting back to the original rough opening and going from there? Not that there isn't a good way to add replacements to a jamb other than double hung.
Sounds like you are on the right track with the exterior stop. Take a good look at it and see if a creative bend of coil stock could cover what you need. Jeff
* Jeff J. Buck/ Buck Construction/ Pittsburgh, PA *
2nd Generation Buck Const, 3rd generation Craftsman
Thanks for your reply and info, Jeff!
I definately agree that it's better to start with a clean slate instead of working with something that is no good. However, here are my limitations, concerns.
1) I was a professional finish carpenter a few years back. I know about wood siding, trimming out windows with wood clapboards, etc. I've got most of the tools & experience one would need to work on clapboard sidings -- This house (our own) has aluminum siding -- I don't anything about working with it, and if it was up to me, and money were no concern, I'd tear it all down and reside the house with wood siding, new windows, trim, etc. However, that's not gonna happen right now, so I need to do what I can.
2) The reason I would like to leave the exterior alone is just that -- I don't know what to do with Alum. siding and I would like to make the job affect the exterior as little as possible.
3) The present windows are being replaced because most of them don't open well (though I've cleaned and lubed the mechanisms), they are single pane, screens are missing, and they open too little to provide enough air circulation. We figured that going with double hungs would give us more air, and they would not cost as much as sliders or replacement awning windows.
Regarding your suggestion of doing something creative with coil stock. Anything specific you can suggest?
thanks,
Rene
Having the aluminum siding may work to your favor this time.
From what I can see from here.........
either the siding is up tight to the window with some sorta J channel between the siding and the window......OR
there is flst stock as the trim......and that is wrapped with coil stock.
If either GUESS is near right......I'd think about replacing the whole window units and replacing with new.
Cut out the alum siding to where a 1x something.....pick one...maybe 1x4......could be used as the final trim. Think standard alum/vinyl siding trim datail.
Actually...cut back less the first time......make final cut when the windows are in!
Remove enough siding to get at the original nail fins.....if there are any. Remove the window. If need be....fir out the sheathing to make for a nice solid nailer
Pop in the new....nail off........remembering to flash the opening........may be better to slip in some J channel......might be able to break bend something suitable.......apply 1x as exterior trim.......wrap that with coil stock. Caulk......drink a beer.
I've done windows set in brick...that were sorta too tight for trim....yet too big a gap for caulk.....and have bent up kinda a 3 sided box with a longer "Tail" to slip behind the window. Another time...we were matching new to old...and the window matched exact....but the aluminum frame was boxed out on the old and flat on the new.
So we just bent up a tiny box frame out of coil stock. Same idea......like an inch long tail......3/4 across the face......back down 3/4.....and 1/2 to catch the window.....we hand crimped a fold on the 1/2 part that caught the drip bead on the window frame......caulked it in and it matched the old prefectly........was my working buddies idea........I was impressed when it worked. On that.....we flashed behind that false front just to be safe.....but the "exterior extnasion jamb" we did was way tight when done.
Check some break web sites.....they might some some examples of what their break can do.....might be able to steal an idea or two.
Me....I'd take a hard look at cutting the aluminum back and somehow retrimming.
You could even lose the wrapped 1x......go with a trim board like Miratex.
That's all if the added outer stop and working from within won't simplify life. Gotta be there to judge......keep us posted. Jeff * Jeff J. Buck/ Buck Construction/ Pittsburgh, PA *
2nd Generation Buck Const, 3rd generation Craftsman
I want to replace old steel casement (they crank out)
and aluminum sliders with, possibly, vinyl windows.
The existing windows are in stucco. How do you get
them out without making a big hole?
Rene, If all you want is better air flow and weather tightness and ease of operation,DON'T go with D/H's use vinyl sliders, don't know where you're at, But Harvey Industries covers New England and up-state N.Y.
They have a great vinyl line and the sliders can come with full screens on two-lite units that both lites operate, makes for great venting.
As previously stated , remove the old from the outside and frame down the R.O. or remove the existing trim, whichever applies.
There is undoubtedly some kind of wood siding under the Aluminum, so save your pennies and strip the siding AND do the window replacement at the same time!
Geoff