Hi,
I’m replacing a Cedar Shake roof with two asphalt shingle roofs on top of the Cedar shake. I need new Sheathing and roofing. The house is a 1923 Dutch colonial and I’m looking for a step by step roofing guide. How to install etc, I’m also interested in best roofing material metal, cedar or asphalt. Any suggestions would be most helpful.
Thank you in advance,
Jim
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Replies
Wow!
Have you considered getting professional help?
I mean a professional roofer, of course.
You may have this thing openned up for awhile and it is no picnic to tear off that much material. You could potentially destabilize old framing with too much sheathing off while you work.
Big subject so let us know how much you know to start with.
Hi,
Been doing construction for my homes for 15 years. I've built decks, Redone Kitchens and have extended a garage which needed a hip roof 30' x 24'. I know what u r saying about hiering a pro but cost is a real issue. I got a quote for a 40 year roof with asphault shingles for $20K. I know i can do it I have plenty of help when the time comes for getting the materials up on roof. I need to know what is best sheathing to use 3/4 or 1/2" and where to get my materials from?
It's the trip I enjoy more than the destination.
thank u in advance.
jim
mbeg....generally speaking.. for roof sheathing we use 1/2 CDX ply WITH clips, if the roof is framed 16" OC
& 5/8 CDX ply WITH clips if the roof is framed 24" OC..
we do not use 3/4" Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
5/8" whats the benifit or advantage over 1/2". Is there any?
Jim
jim.. 5/8 is stiffer than 1/2...
just a personal preference , since code only requires 3/8 with 24" OC..
but we always use the clips and we always do 5/8 if it's framed 24" Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike
Thanks, What are clips?
Jim
H clips are small (about 1") aluminum chenks in an H shape that slip over the edge of a piece of plywood about halfway btween rafters. The next piece slides into it to minimally bind the two together so that they become modestly stronger by supporting one another. The main benefit of them tho' is that they prevent on from moving independentlyand telegraphing the deams in the ply. Another benefit is that it helps maintain the required 1/8" space between sheets of ply. Without that space, the ply can swell from moisture and also telegraph.
While I am sure you are willing and ambitious, Some of your questions show just enough 'greenhorn' to hint that you might possibly be getting in over your head. I'm with Andy on looking for help from a rip off artist or a second story man. (My bag of puns is overflowing tonight, if you don't mind.)
5/8" is stronger than 1/2" and not too heavy if you are in shape. 3/4" will kill you to handle up there.
Another thing I like about Andy's suggestions is leaving the skip sheathing in place. If you decided to use asphaltic shingles instead of shakes, You can skim over the old with 3/8" plywood or 7/16" OSB to provide a smooth surface.
Hope you don't mind the critique, Work safe
Post pictures.
Maybe I should write a book about roofing...Excellence is its own reward!
Piff
Maybe you should come help me with mine.....I'll even pay ya good and suppy a bedroom in one of the most historic homes on LI and brew and tunes.......lol....what the fug,,why dont all ya all come help me.....I'll get a friggin keg....certainly should be a worthwhile photo op for some of these rags and TV dudes....Thing is..they aint gettin the photo op till after we finish the keg..In sepiatone (sp?) TOUGH!
BE well
Namaste
AndyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Maybe Taunton should get the keg - for after hours of course!
Starting to sound tantalizing - I could sit in the shade and offer advice without even having to type...Excellence is its own reward!
Damn you...I was hoping we could both sit poolside by THE POOL IN BACK and direct the young bucks......not to mention...bring in the ladies to....uhhhhhh......what is that website in Taunton?? Cook on a stage with a pole to dance around as one makes thongs in the Threads site?
OOPPSSSS....Sorry dude.....Blew it I reckon...BAck to the old keg and sweatin our azzes off building stuff.......
Be well
Namaste'
andyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I think that's called a rotisserie in CTExcellence is its own reward!
I've done this type re-roof many times (once got into one with six layers of asphalt shingles over the cedar - someone had added a tall shingle mold at the rakes to hide the bulk). IMHO, get a pro. If you decide to do it yourself, plan for lots of disposal, have plenty of tarps, plenty of help, and keep one eye glued to the Weather Channel when you're not on the roof and an eye on the sky when you are. It's tough to pull a tarp onto a roof with skip sheathing with thousands of nails still sticking up. Try to break the roof into managable sections, remembering that both sides of a valley should be taken as one section. Leave the skip sheathing down and install 1/2" CDX or 7/16" OSB over it. Have clips for when the sheets don't break on the skip sheathing. A framing nailer will speed things and reduce fatigue. Proper scaffolding/ladders/roof jacks are imperitive. If you're not sure if you know how to flash something or not, or you're not sure of the proper tools required, then you don't. Hire a pro. Watch them work, ask questions, and next time try it yourself. Whew, typing this makes me remember why I quit taking these kinds of jobs.
Good Luck.
gl
Why do they put Braille on the drive-through bank machines?
grantlogan is absolutely on target. There's a reason why it costs $20K. This kind of job is complicated; use your experience where it counts, in management not labor. You can save money by ordering & buying materials, taking deliveries, getting the Dumpsters. Then you can save your back by hiring a roofing sub to supply the labor.
Start by tarping the attic! The mess if you don't is unbelievable.
Tell me how many squares, valleys & other intersections, pitch: I'll help you with the estimate.
For example, if your house is 24 squares with 2 layers asphalt over wood, that's 80 squares with caps & starters & accessories; you're going to need a 30 yard Dumpster to start, then another 15 or 20 or 30 to finish. The wood doesn't compact well, though the crew I use has a "guy on the ground" whose job is to pack the Dumpster and clean up the debris (You want to learn how to do this?)
As far as plywood goes: 3 sheets per square, almost no waste. That's 75 sheets, so shop around. 3/8" CDX is right for two reasons. When it comes to flashing sidewalls & chimneys, if the original siding is still there then the thickness of the old cedar roof can be approximated by 3/8" plywood plus Timberline Ultras (or equal). Also, the boys slinging it up there and cutting it will really appreciate its lightweight. The skip-sheathed structure is plenty strong; you're providing a flat clean substrate to stick WeatherWatch to.
Order materials from a roofing supplier. Our supplier will send a rep out to measure, and they come pick up the overage when it's all done (keep a few bundles with intact wrappers for repairs). Ask about enhanced warrantees: GAF offers a lifetime option if you buy 2 accessories like Shinglemate paper and ridge vent. After the labor, plywood, etc the extra cost for the Ultra shingles will look pretty small ($240?). Ice & water barrier is not a substitute for careful detailing, but the added insurance is worth it!
Make sure the roofer understands the two most important rules:
1) Only strip what you can cover by the end of the day, or the first raindrops
2) Keep a "lookin' tarp" in the truck just in case. You know, that big tarp that's still in the package with the big price tag on it, that you've been lookin' at for a year since you bought it!
Hey Bowtie,
I have a question for you being like it sounds as though youre a roofing contractor. I'm in NY LI...Just bought a 322 year old house.....I've been doing renovations for over 27 years so I've done quite a few roofs.....Thing is...I'm wondering how much a good roofing co. gets to rip one layer of cedar off and replace it per square. Theres nothing real complicated bout this job. Its an up and over. No hips or valleys...Its just got a gable on each end, No shrubs on the ground yet to worry about...Easy access to a dumpster....a floor in the attic where one could start if they wanted to ( hammering the shingles up with the end of a sledge between the skip sheeting) I havent over all my years come accross a cedar roof job so....A reasonable Sq Ft price?
PS....If I do it myself witha cpl of helpers I figure first thing will be to hire Rip Off Artists....to do one side at a time.....Have my order "boomed" to the ridge spread out accross it naturally....one side at time...One other question..what kind of nail gun would you use? I assume roofing nails will split the shingles...Stainless finish 6's is expensive and I dont think necessary as they didnt use them 322 years ago..
Thanks
Be well
Namaste'
Andy
It's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Edited 9/7/2002 10:58:25 AM ET by Andy Clifford(Andybuildz)
Andy- Thanks for the compliment, but I'm no expert on new cedar roofing (see my posting "Face-nailing an old cedar roof?). We see very few new ones around here. In fact I've learned the hard way that there's a lot more to it that just air-nailing shingles when it comes to wood.
First, go to the web site for the Cedar Shake and Shingle Bureau. Then get some estimates from contractors that specialize in wood roofs because you are throwing your money away hiring a roofer who says no problem we can do it.
Third, look at alternatives. Sure Timberlines are boring but there are a lot of other options that offer superior performance. And lower your homeowners insurance!
The stainless nails? Again the Cedar Shake people know best. But remember that galvanized and tannic acid in cedar don't mix. As far as the house not needing ss nails: How many roofs has this 322 yr old house had? I'll wager that for at least 250 yrs that house lacked insulation, so that the dew point was not at the underside of the roofing as it might be now, and that the breezy interior aided in the drying of the shingles after rainstorms. Today, cedar roofs rot because they trap moisture, and the nails (or staples) rust because they are exposed to prolonged periods of dampness.
Bostitch makes nailers, and nails, designed for this application, and the guns are adjustable so the nails are applied correctly. Roofing nails are definitely out! Consult your cedar supplier. Again, if you don't nail properly you might as well plan on 20 years of headaches.
The sledgehammer in the attic trick? Will give you forearms like Popeye, and a lot of broken skip sheathing boards! Better to work from topside with a shingle-ripper and a claw hammer (to pull out the nails). Tedious in the extreme.
Bowtie
I'm guessing and I think its accurate to say that this roof is over 150 years old as thats when they raised the roof.Early 1800's. I'm floored (I mean roofed....lol) that its lasted so long but as you stated ,,,,as far as insul goes...theres insul in the floor and not the roof so there is a well vented attic space. Probably needed a new roof 20 years ago but the owners I bought it from didnt do very much at all.
As like you as I previously stated....I've done a whole lotta roofs in my 27 years in the reno biz and never a cedar roof. I have looked at the Cewdar Bereau site a few weeks ago because I noticed a drop dead gorgous job going on up the street and couldnt believe with the incredable craftsmanship this contractor was performing that he was laying cedar roofing right ontop of new roof plywood...I always thought it had to be on skip sheeting...Turns out from the C.B website that you can in fact go over the plywood. I think you have to order special shingles though (I really didnt read it that closely)....They have fire reistant shingles as well to help from burning the house down and lower the home owners insurance
I have more equiptment then I have room to store so when I get to the roof I'll set up my newish aluminum pump jack poles and start from up top....youre right about that...I was thinking too lazy which I better stop doing...lol.lotta work in fron of me. Have a feeling <G> its gonna to me doing the shingling....I'll let you know the quotes I get...Should be interesting.....Theres only one layer of old shingles up there now and I'm guessig about 25 sq or so.
No way would I use anything other then cedar...Have you seen any pictures I posted? Would look too out of character with anything else and like I said..I gotta stop thinking lazy!....Thanks !!!!
BE well
Namaste'
AndyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
The problem I've faced with replacing cedar with cedar, is it's a slow process and it's tough to keep the roof dried in for the necessary time it takes to do the job right (I'm a rainmaker - I can stop a drought by starting a job like this - it'll rain for weeks). Although, the cedar bureau says it's OK to install over plywood, I've witnessed shorter longevity of the cedar when installed this way (in lower humidity climates, this may not be a problem). I prefer to install plywood, ice barrier and #30 felt and fur over with 1x2. This also creates a cold roof and helps with preventing ice damming. I've been using an Impulse nailer with galvanized nails with good success. The depth can be set where the heads stand just proud of the shake or shingle. As far as the longevity of the nails, every cedar roof I've ever torn off had most if not all of the nails intact. The cedar rotted away from the nails. Stainless may be overkill, since they are blind nailed. I would use them, though, if I could get them for my guns.
gl
Do pediatricians play miniature golf on Wednesdays?
Andy--
seems like your heading for a lot of perhaps unnecessary work...Why not reclaim that lost art from the mid-late 1970's and spray 5-6" of white polyurethane foam over the existing roofs? Sure would look good against the current red, and kinda giving a perpetual Christmas motif to the whole place....
Regards,
Rework
p.s.: next summer will be here sooner than we think, when are you announcing dates for "This Very Old House Fest" summer 1993?
Edited 9/8/2002 1:30:34 PM ET by Rework
Soon as I get the pool cleaned out It's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I like Piffins advice about leaving the skip sheeting on if you are going to asphalt. I have done a lot of reroofs and if they were old houses that had skip sheeting on I always left it there, you can use 7/16 osb which isn't to pricey and you usually don't need the clips. Then ice damn and 30# felt paper, don't let them sell you that thin 15# crap, it only adds a little to the cost and its worth every penny.
Good luck and if you were close I would be glad to help, by close I mean right across the street from me.
Doug
1/2 inch is a joke on a roof IMHO...weigh out the cost tween half and 5/8th.....walk on the two..I have...5/8th is way better.......although in the aplication for cedar......if the skip sheathing....furring strips is there then I say use em.....In the link I left in the previous post the cedar association says you can use plywood with certain cedar shingles in certain climates....Thats news to me but hey..learn somethin' new every day.....still'd use the furring strips
Be well
Namaste'
andyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
The best roofing material? that's no simple question. Aesthetics, material and labor costs, longevity and more are all questions that help define best. You get your material from whoever carries the roof you decide to use, and will offer the best price, delivery method (on the roof), and customer support (which it sounds like you may need).
Good luck with your project, Steve
MB....If you have the patience and time......what I'd do and am going to on my new ' old house (have to admit I've been in the reno bz over 27 years) is to rip the cedar shakes and redo em'. For one...the furring is already there...If like me......you can start the rip off from the attic by using a sledge between the furring (skip sheathing). Roofing on an up and over if thats whatcha got isnt all that difficult...MAybe hire a roofer helper to work alongside you.....I know I'm gonna get a lotta flack from these guys here but none the less thats how I started and bettin thats how most of these other guys started...On a Dutch Colonial IMHO nothing can match the beauty and authenticity then cedar shingles....Well worth the effort . Look into hiring a rip off artist.....lol.....have them do 1/2 the roof at a time...youre gonna pay to have the roof ripped no mater who shingles it...Rip one side and you start bangin shingles..Get a tarp to roll down the roof at the end of the day.....Turn up the tunes...snap yer lines and get to shingling......HAve a company boom the shingles up for you if possible at the peak down the line....
Otherwise just rip andasphalt...YUK-O! Never mattered how little money I ever had...I always figured out a way....Sure have learned a lot with that attitude! HAve fun man...BE careful!!!!!!!!...prep is most important as well....BUT....if you have little to no experiance then you better think twice, thrice about this idea of mine (not that, that ever stopped me)..You'll feel totally incredable when youre done! PS..Take pictures!
BE well
Namaste
Andy
It's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Edited 9/6/2002 7:32:46 PM ET by Andy Clifford(Andybuildz)
Andy,
Thank you, I like your idea about half a roof at a time. Do you know any articles like Fine homebuilding on Sheathing a roof that gave me some good advice. I'm looking for after the sheathing the next step and flashing around the fireplace bricks?
Any direction would help
Thanks again,
Jim
Cedar Shake and Shingle Bureau
Every thing you could want is here
BE well
Namaste
AndyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM