Replacing rafter tails that are sistered to a truss roof
triacon
| Posted in Construction Techniques on
I am working on a garage in my backyard that was built in the late 1960’s. Need to do some repairs before putting on a metal roof. The truss system is made out of 2 x 6 rafters and has rafter tails that are about 5 feet long. Half of the length is inside the garage, bolted to the rafter and a bird mouth is cut into them. They are on either side of almost all the rafters, bolted through with 2 bolts and nuts…
Some of them are rotten or bugged out and I am wondering how to replace them. Do I have to remove roof decking as I don’t see how I can slide the new ones into place. Someone suggested that I might be able to “roll them into place” But not sure about that.
Will send photo’s if that would help…
These are exposed rafter tails
Replies
A photo would sure help
Evidently the truss system is not an engineered factory built truss?
And the real rafters continue out and to the fascia (or edge of roof sheeting), or not?
No, not an engineered truss (to my knowledge).
The rafters are 2 x 6, the ceiling joists, or horizontal members are 2 x 4's as are any diagonal parts. The rafters have an angle cut on their bottom edge, allowing them to sit on top of the top plate. Probably toenailed into the top plate. 2 rafter tails sandwich the rafter part of the truss assembly, which allowed the builder to have the roof overhang about 2.5' beyond the front and back walls. I will take better images of the details tomorrow. Ran out of daylight and energy today. I am hoping to replace some, if not all, of these tails, and any soft wood on the roof decking because I purchased metal roofing that I want to get on there before winter...
Thanks.
How do the joists tie to the rafters? Do the extended tails and joists tie together somehow?
You can roll quite easily if you rip opposing bevels to the top and bottom of the extensions. If you mirror the rips on the pairs you'll never see a gap on the top of the rafter-the birdsmouth you might have fudge a bit. Dans idea of the sheeting springing up might work, but you don't have much room to bash 'em up there.
Yeah, I would think that you'd be able to "roll" new pieces into place, if you can get the old ones out. You might need to cut the birds mouth a little deeper and the stick in wedges after the piece is in place. But you might be able to simply "persuade" the sheating to rise up a little (pry between rafter and sheathing) to give you the little extra space you need.
photo's of the rafter tails
So, I was wrong about the rafter having an angle cut on its bottom edge, The ceiling joists appear to be sitting on top of the top plate, then the rafter is sitting on top of it, with the sandwiched tails face nailed and bolted to form the cantelever overhang...
See photo's attached.
Can I do this with the rafter tails
Is this acceptable? I thought I might be able to skinny up the inner section of the rafter tails in order to slide them into place from outside the building.
Later, glue and nail the pc I cut away in order to complete the bird mouth...
see photos
more photo's
having trouble attaching more than one photo
here are a couple more
Triacon
Was that rafter you show cut like that and not fastened onto the top of the joist? Your lookouts that you are replacing are alot more than just ornamental. They are attempting to scab together the connection of the real rafter and the ceiling joist. If it's not secure the weight of the roof will want to push that rafter down and out. At the least, your extensions need to go up to where they were b/4-from the picture I can't tell if you have the same length and just didn't push it up yet. And the connections need to tie the rafter and joist together good.
Calvin, you asked the following
"Was that rafter you show cut like that and not fastened onto the top of the joist? "
What picture are you referring to? If you are talking about the original rafter, sitting on top of the joist, I did not cut them. they are short of resting on top of the top plate...
Your lookouts that you are replacing are alot more than just ornamental. They are attempting to scab together the connection of the real rafter and the ceiling joist. If it's not secure the weight of the roof will want to push that rafter down and out. At the least, your extensions need to go up to where they were b/4-from the picture I can't tell if you have the same length and just didn't push it up yet.
No, I did not push that pictured tail up all the way because that particular areas top plate is also rotten wood and I will have to replace it as well. Must have had some water and bug trouble years ago. I can see that someone replaced some of the 1 x 5 roofers (yellow pine) but they never did anything about the 4 or 5 sets of rafter tails above that far right garage door...
I pushed up hard on the extreme right set of rafter tails since they are sagging down towards the ground... They were so weak that they cracked at the thin area of the birds mouth. Unfortunately, the outermost one is clad with ship lap siding and then someone also stapled T-1-11 siding over it...... so I am going to have a real hard time replacing that set. Wondering if I should leave the outermost one in there and just replace the other one?
So, after these bits of info, is it wise for me to use the modified rafter tails or should I remove the first 5' of roofers and rebuild as it was originally made?
Can I add written info to the photo's I have already sent?
Can I add written info to the photo's I have already sent?
You can EDIT the post, but you'll have to refer to the picture in question-there's no way to insert lines of type between those thumbnails.
The edit button for the original post is on top of your message box-kind of like a tab.
The edit button for replies, is on the bottom of the message box.
If you do it b/4hand, you can add type to the photo in a photoprogram, then download it from your file.
What picture are you referring to?
Yes, the one you mention. That is one unusual framing job. You'll need to tie that together to the joist-whether the double rafter with nails, maybe glue and bolts will do it I do not know-It did it b/4 I guess. If it had at least been cut to fit the top of that joist, a pair of mending plates or even toenails/lag from above would have been a better fastening method.
So, after these bits of info, is it wise for me to use the modified rafter tails or should I remove the first 5' of roofers and rebuild as it was originally made?
At this time I'm grilling outside, in the sleet, starting a fire in the heater and trying to watch conservatives carry on..............so at best all I can tell you is it would take some thought on how to make it better. The original is odd, but I guess it worked. Say you slid the lower pc of your new rafter tails down till that birds mouth sat right down on the plate, glue and screw (with structural screws, not drywall screws) a number 10 exteror screw for instance that pc tight up to it's mate. Then screw that portion to the rafter (bolt and screw the upper pc). I mention screws because they will pull that shebang together. You of course could nail (a ringshank would be good), but with an impact driver I think if you have room, driving screws would be way easier.
And then of course you could take back the sheathing boards and do it the other way. I don't know if it's worth the extra work. If you're stripping the shingles, and the bottom of the sheathing is rotted anyway..........................
Gotta go, don't want to burn dinner.
Best of luck
Hey Calvin, I may seem like I am in a rush, but I am not
Took the day off to see where I am at with this project. It's getting more complicated but that's OK.
Hope you didn't ruin your meal! Can I email you directly with some more detailed info pertaining to the images I have posted? I am not used to this forum just yet and would like to explain what I have here....
My email address is [email protected].
Have a Happy Thanksgiving if I don't hear from you before then!
If that's supposed to be a canoe I don't think it's going to work.
it's a mold for a geodesic dome called the Fly's Eye Dome...
I figured it was some sort of a boat for you, your wife, and your mother-in-law.
Sure thing, I just sent you an email.
And if ever you wish to contact a member here-click on their name in that bar at the top of a post-that'll take you to their profile. There you might find "send email to" or "private message"................something of that sort. Use that, and you won't have to display your email address.
As I was looking at your earlier pictures I was thinking this would be the way to go. I doubt that it would even be necessary to attach the cut-off piece -- it wouldn't add any real strength, given the birds mouth is the weak link. It looks like you'd be left with about 3.5" of wood, and many a rafter tail is made from 2x4.
roof framing
Only from what i see in the photo's, that bolt does more than fasten the rafter tails. It could be a very important connection of the top chord to the bottom chord of the truss. Although I doubt it, there may be a concealed split ring connecter. Don't remove it until you are sure of it's purpose.
As I write this, I am questioning my memory of the original post. I think you were saying that the rafter tails were bolted to the rafters. I will go back and re=read it. Memory is old and worn out.
the bolts go through the 2 rafter tails that sandwich the joist
there were 10d nails above the bolts, perhaps 4 or 6 and the bolts, as mentioned in subject line... There were holes drilled through the ceiling joists but the rafters actually just rest on top of the joist, about 4 inches inbound of where the joist rests on top of the top plate... I think the bolts were used just to keep the 3 rafter parts together and the best place to bolt through was where I mentioned...