We’ve got a 1780 house that, of course, needs work. One of the things is the oil furnace, which is beyond its last legs. We’re about to convert to gas, with a new boiler, etc. and are going to replace the old(er) steam radiators with baseboard things. I’ve read about ‘rung’ numbers and such but don’t quite get what folks are talking about. We’ve got 8 cast iron radiators of various sizes that we will no longer need. Does anyone know about selling them (I’m not sure how old they are; some are newer than others but some could be at least 100 years old maybe) … I know there’s a big interest in salvaged building materials, but I don’t have any idea about the radiator thing. I’d hate to just drag them to the dump — and would love a little help in paying for the new system if that’s possible! Any suggestions or resources out there I should know about? Thanks.
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Replies
Where are you located? Many areas have building material salvage yards that buy and sell old radiators, check your local yellow pages. I imagine it would be impractical to try to sell them any further away than your immediate neighborhood because of the weight - shipping costs would be a bear. You could also try selling them on http://www.craigslist.org/, if they have a web board presence in your town.
Why replace them? They will work fine with a new boiler, & they are much more appropriate & nicer looking for an old house than baseboard thingies...And much easier to decorate around. If they are flaky, they can be sandblasted, & painted to match the walls, or to match the trim, if you'd rather.
Also, they keep the rooms more comfortable, because they keep on radiating even when the boiler isn't running. Save $$$ right there!
Absolutely right, we have a great gas Weil-McLean on our old steam system, very efficient - baseboards will take up tons more floor space, you can never put furniture right up against the wall - why bother?
Also, they keep the rooms more comfortable, because they keep on radiating even when the boiler isn't running. Save $$$ right there!
Wrong. There's no free lunch with energy. Sounds like the new aluminum beer cans that are advertised to cool down faster yet stay cool longer. Mike
From:
Junkman001 <!----><!---->
Sep-21 10:35 pm
To:
kate <!----><!---->unread
Also, they keep the rooms more comfortable, because they keep on radiating even when the boiler isn't running. Save $$$ right there!
Wrong. There's no free lunch with energy. Sounds like the new aluminum beer cans that are advertised to cool down faster yet stay cool longer. Mike
Mike, you're wrong about this one but not for the obvious reason.
A lot of people say that you'll save money with cast-iron radiators, and it's true...but what Kate mentioned doesn't explain it fully. The mass of heated radiator has a lot to do with the smoothness of the temperature variation curve in the heated space. Lightweight radiators which rely on aluminium fins heat and cool very quickly. This means that within a few minutes of plant shutdown, the temperature in the conditioned space near the thermostat has dropped again (convenction dies out as soon as the fins cool off), and the thermostat will cycle calling the heating plant back on line. The fins then re-heat quickly, sending another mini-burst of hot air up to shut down the thermostat...and the cycle repeats.
On the other hand, a massive radiator such as the old cast-iron steam/HW jobs heats up and cools off slowly and evenly. So it causes the heating plant to cycle on and off much less often, by keeping warm-air convenction currents moving in the room long after the furnace has been shut down by the 'stat. That's where the savings are. Start-up always costs more than run-time for any plant.
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Dino-
Thanks for bailing me out there - I was familiar with the effect, but obviously oversimplified the process. I knew one of you tech-oriented ones would be along soon to get me out of the soup ;.)
In addition to the joys of radiator living listed by others, let me ad the joy of sitting on the radiator while eating ice cream. Also putting bread to rise, and melting beeswax to mix with olive oil to make hand saver, without the risk if burning down the house.
Also, with baseboard units, there is no safe place to tie the new puppy while he is learning to be housebroken & not to jump on the bed.
Also for drying your wet boots on a couple of dowels stuck between the tubes.
Best Wishes
Kate
In addition to the joys of radiator living listed by others, let me ad the joy of sitting on the radiator while eating ice cream. Also putting bread to rise, and melting beeswax to mix with olive oil to make hand saver,
...or draping your bath towel over it while you're in the tub, or just standing up against it, warming your back and your bum in the morning, as the coffee perks.
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
...or draping your bath towel over it while you're in the tub, or just standing up against it, warming your back and your bum in the morning, as the coffee perks.
in english, that really sounds like more than we need to know about your bathing rituals, TH. maybe it would sound better in french?
Now, back to serious stuff. When an HO comes here with a question, I think people are pretty good about giving an answer. It isn't always going to be the answer the person wants. That's pretty much the whole point of asking a question. If they want validation, this is the wrong place to come. If they want good advice, clearly stated and without any handholding, they get it here. This is not the touchy feely website for butchering old houses, so don't feel bad for telling it like it is.
SHGFor every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H.L. Mencken
This is not the touchy feely website for butchering old houses, so don't feel bad for telling it like it is.
As you know pretty well, I do most of my touchying and feelying with a chainsaw, 16-lb sledgehammer, or a 4-foot wrecking bar. So I do tend to be one of the gentler souls around here. And I just didn't want outtablue running away screaming before we'd managed to completely brainwash (her?) (him?) over to our point of view. Uh, I mean, 'persuade'....
But I am shocked!--Shocked!--I tell you, to hear you accusing me, of all people, of feeling bad!! How could you? (sniff sniff burble burble honnnk....)
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Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
I apologize, Mr. Sensitivity.
Welcome to BT. This is really one of those times you want to fill in your profile, at least with your location. If you're in central Va., I'll help you out.
I recently paid $100 for almost enough old ones for my next (new) house. They needed sandblasting, but I was happy to find them. Not ornate, which will fit the house better. If you've lived with cast radiators, I find it amazing that you'd prefer baseboard. Mine were advertised in the local shopper paper.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Don't be in a rush to get rid of those old radiators. I've had both and can tell you that the big old iron ones make rooms a lot more comfortable than the new aluminum finned cr*p.
Just because you installing a new boiler does not mean that you must install new radiators. Those old ones, even if the original system was set up for steam, can be reused.
Because of their bulk and the quantity of water they hold, once they get warm they radiate that warmth for a longer time. So there are less noticeable temperature swings in your rooms.
Yes, they are big and take up space - so do the newer style aluminum radiators that wrap around all of your walls. These have their bulk in one location instead of all over. So, while they might be "in the way" in one spot, you can push your furniture up against the walls everywhere else.
And, as has been mentioned, for an older style house they are much more in keeping and consistent with the period than the newer radiators.
Repair them, rehab them and reuse them. But, DO NOT DISPOSE of them. If you really, really hate the look of them, you can buy/make wood covers for them. They sort of become end tables then.
If you're still intent on getting rid of them, most communities recycle metals so you should not generally have to pay to get rid of them at a "Dump". Talk to your local Town Engineer or Town Sanitarian beforehand.
wow... so many responses and so quickly too. one of the issues with the old steam things is that a lot of heating contractors don't want anything to do with them. many refuse to do anything at all with them. Not that I'm one to normally comply with that kind of refusal, it seems that these radiators in this house are kind of haphazard. They're not all uniform; they're of varying sizes, ages and degrees of function. Technically (and while I'm not trying to turn our house into a colonial Cape Cod museum) the steam radiator would have no place in the 1780 Cape. From our research and physical finding (the discovery of the butchered dutch oven) and inspection, it looks as though some kind of 'new' heating system came in around 1867 -- especially if we judge by the folded up, perfectly preserved Temprance newspaper we found in the rubble. (That's why we're recreating a 3-flue chimney with a big masonry fireplace and 2 smaller ones, using all the old bricks we salvaged from the unfortunate dismantle of the semi-original... Say .. does anyone have any insight on West Barnstable Bricks?). While I hate to get rid of potentially interesting and historical aspects of the house, these steam radiators just don't seem to be working for us. But keep those opinions coming ...
I'm going to chime in with the rest of the gang on this one.
If the HVAC contractors you've been dealing with don't want to deal with the CI rads, I'd suggest you replace the contractors instead of the radiators. Those radiators are priceless. The contractors are worthless.
I understand that you've probably been told 'they're garbage; the new ones are much more efficient; these don't even match; just tear 'em out and do it right' or other words to the same effect. But it's all a bunch of sales crapola. The full-bore cast-iron steam/hot-water radiator is the only heating system that can compare in comfort with a cast-iron wood-stove.
The uniformity of radiation--by that I mean, the lack of spikes and dips in the heat supply curve--of cast iron cannot be duplicated by any system without the same physical mass. Just like the difference between cooking in a cast-iron skillet or a stamped steel or aluminum fry pan.
If you replace these with aluminum-finned baseboard rads, your house will never feel the same again. Believe me, I speak from personal experience. The house I grew up in in the 50s had finned rads. My grandmother's house, built in the 20s, had the CI rads. While she kept her house a good 5 degrees cooler than my mother kept ours (Grandma was a thrifty soul, not to say cheap, LOL!), it felt warmer at her place. Always. Even my oh-so-modern mother remarked on it.
Remember: If it ain't broken, don't fix it!
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
If you live near Long Island in NY I'd definatly get rid of a few if I were you.
I can help you dispose of about three : )
Be heh heh
andyThe secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
the steam radiator would have no place in the 1780 Cape.
and your new sheet metal baseboard radiators will ?
carpenter in transition
The steam radiator would have no place in a 1700's cape
Are you planning a museum, or a residence? The place for the steam radiators is right where they are, as they were the first reliable, affordable technology to keep the family comfortable throuout long New England winters.
An old house comes to you with a history, which you are allowed to participate in. One of the cardinal rules of old house work is "don't rip out good old work."
The only thing "better" for heating an old house might be radiant undrtfloor coils, which would be invisible, .but baseboard heaters look way worse than radiators, which I don't think look bad at all. They make the house feel better, too, as one of the other contributers mentioned.
So please thik a little longer about this.
Kate
is this for me ?
carpenter in transition
outofblue, where are u? Put a location in your profile :)
You are asking about West Barnstable Bricks, so am I to assume you are on Cape Cod? There are plenty of excellent steam experts around these parts for your system.
Your radiators are different sizes because the rooms are different sizes - the number of sections is determined by the size of the room, the height of the rads by the windows in the room. In my house, built with steam in the 20's, there were originally 5 different sized radiators installed.
If this house is goinng to be vacant for any period of time (is it a vacation house, or will you be on vacation in the winter?) steam is absolutely the best system because it DRAINS - there is much less concern (almost none) about pipes freezing in the winter. It's a huge advantage, particularly if you are on the Cape where a good winter storm will often knock out power.
Another thing I hate about baseboard heaters in an old home is that they destroy the visual link between the old floorboards and the baseboards - I assume in an 18th century house your floors and trim have beautiful details - why hide them with a 6" high piece of aluminum along the lenght of the entire wall?
Then again, if you really want it to look more like a 50's ranch, carpet is so much warmer than wood floors, right?
Edited 9/22/2005 12:55 pm ET by RickD
Your wrote, in part:
Technically (and while I'm not trying to turn our house into a colonial Cape Cod museum) the steam radiator would have no place in the 1780 Cape.
And, you're correct.
But, technically, no central heating system would have a place in a 1780 Cape. To my knowledge, unless you're real generous with the concept of a fireplace, they didn't exist in 1780. So, 1800's era steam radiators are as irreconcilable to your problem as 2005 Baseboard radiators. It's your choice, esthetically, which one is more suitable to install.
I suspect, too, that some plumbers see $ when they salivate over the idea of totally replacing a heating system instead of just the boiler. [You haven't mentioned this to my knowledge: Is there a reason why you're changing from a steam system? To my knowledge, there is no reason why - the laws of physics have not changed, you can still heat water till it turns to steam and you can still get the parts to make a steam heating system work properly. And it would certainly be FAR LESS EXPENSIVE to modernize rather than replace.] However, old steam radiators can be successfully converted into hydronic hot water systems. You'll need new piping regardless if you're switching from steam to hot water which will, undoubtedly, entail a lot of wall damage to run the new piping, and, if you install baseboard, patch work for the holes in the floor where the steam pipes were. Read "$" here for all of that.
And, yes, in the houses I've lived in with old cast iron steam radiators they were mismatched in size. There always seemed to be one odd one somewhere, like an orphan, for a reason not readily apparent to me. That's why radiator covers seemed like a good idea - they tended to minimize the irregularities and make everything seem more uniform.
But, whichever you decide to do, good luck. Hope it turns out great.Griff
Yes, technically, if we were properly 'restoring' -- or whatever the catch phrase is that is acceptable to certain folks -- our 1780 cape, we would promptly remove all indoor plumbing, electricity and may even buy some extra livestock to keep inside to help warm up the place in winter. Not sure where you got the idea that fireplaces didn't exist in 1780! ... From about the mid-1600s, one of the Cape Cod style home's most dramatic feature was the giant central chimney that housed three fireplaces in 3 different rooms ... our house had most of the bones of that, though it was butchered somewhat around 1867.I feel a little bit like I coated my arm in fatback and stuck it in the lion's cage ... forgive me. I was really just hoping to get some suggestions rather than be lambasted for the alleged corruption of some older radiators' integrity. Phew! I'm not sure what people are talking about with these giant aluminum fin things, but that's not what's going to happen. In order to be able to continue to use these radiators, we'd have to rip apart the walls to accomodate the new system that is sorely needed, thereby destroying old plaster for new sheetrock. Isn't there a little bit of a crime in that? It's definitely a compromise with old houses when it comes to fixing them up. I would be thrilled to sell or give my probably 1940s era radiators to someone who would use them as a perfect match for their 'restoration.' I think people who choose to buy historic homes and repair them and live in them ought to be given more credit than those who tear them down to build some brand new thing. I feel pretty fortunate that I can live in a home that has experienced 225 years of the history of its inhabitants.
I'm not sure what people are talking about with these giant aluminum fin things, but that's not what's going to happen. In order to be able to continue to use these radiators, we'd have to rip apart the walls to accomodate the new system that is sorely needed, thereby destroying old plaster for new sheetrock.
they aren't giant, but they do have aluminum fins which are quite visible, although not in this photo. is this what you are using to replace your radiators ?
http://www.slantfin.com/prod-baseline2000.html
is your heating guy reusing the existing steam piping that is in the walls to pipe the new radiators ? I guess what I don't understand is when you say you would have to rip into the walls only if you were going to reuse the old radiators. I would think you have to do this in either case.
don't take the lion's cage thing personally, tough crowd here. I have a steam system in my house with cast iron radiators, but I wouldn't think of converting it to hot water for a variety of reasons which I can't get into here. Saving and reusing cast iron radiators is not always the best choice on every job.
carpenter in transition
>>Yes, technically, if we were properly 'restoring' -- or whatever the catch phrase is that is acceptable to certain folks -- our 1780 cape, we would promptly remove all indoor plumbing, electricity and may even buy some extra livestock to keep inside to help warm up the place in winter. Not sure where you got the idea that fireplaces didn't exist in 1780! ... From about the mid-1600s, one of the Cape Cod style home's most dramatic feature was the giant central chimney that housed three fireplaces in 3 different rooms ... our house had most of the bones of that, though it was butchered somewhat around 1867.Track down some copies of "Old House Journal"They respect old houses while still recognizing that we have to live in them.There is a lot of good information as to how toi balance the need to live comfortably with respect for our history.BTW, I think those cast iron radiators might make a really cool set of windchimes down on the Gulf coast right about now<G,D&R>
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Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
Sorry I didn't make myself clearer. I was only trying to say that old homes didn't have central heating and it would be a stretch to think of the fireplace (which it undoubtedly had) as a source of central heat. Maybe there's heat from the fireplace, maybe there isn't - depends on how drafty your house is.
Good luck on the rest.Griff
I feel a little bit like I coated my arm in fatback and stuck it in the lion's cage ...
It's not you we're ranting at, it's the so-called HVAC contractors you mentioned who want you to dump something that's valuable and useful just so they can sell you some stuff that won't work as well.
A lot of the people here have learned the hard way over the years the lessons they're trying to share with you now. They are passionate about such things, or they wouldn't spend their time giving advice for free to all comers when they could equally well spend that time charging for the same advice to clients in their area. Don't take that passion as a whack at you; it wasn't meant that way at all.
Believe me, what rates as a flaming here resembles in no way what has gone on in this thread, LOL!
Back on topic, I too do not understand why you would need to re-pipe in order to retain the C.I. rads while you would not need to do so if you replaced them with the stuff your HVAC sub wants to sell you. It does not make any sense. The radiators you have will function equally well whether they are heated with steam or with hot water. And new heating plants are available for either system. It's you, the client who must specify what is wanted. Again, I urge you to find a contractor who will help you and not just sell you his specialty.
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
it's painful to hear things like this, but whatever you do, do NOT dump the old stuff. Those rads will be a dream come true to a lot of people. Same with plumbing fixtures, hardware, etc.
Restoration people would give their left nut to get in and salvage an old house when someone is about to "renovate", a word despised by restorers. And before you decide that going form old rads to slant fin is a great design idea, give it some thought. 1700s houses evolved into 1800s house as a natural progression. Once you take out the old, it's gone. But whatever you do, don't put the old stuff in the dumpster. That would be a crime.
SHGFor every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H.L. Mencken
We took a few out of daughters house and was surprised how much they were worth for scrap, I'm guessing $10-15 each. In '86, We remodeled a historic bldg with apts on 2nd floor. I saved 3 cast iron tubs and sold the radiators and other tubs for scrap-didn't get enough to pay for gas and flat tire repairs. Kept the 3 tubs for a few years, moved them twice and ended up selling them at an auction for $1.00 each!
Moral of the story is, if someone close to you needs them, sell them. If not, sell for scrap.
Bob
You need to find a real contractor. Keep the radiators. There is nothing better than some boxers and a shirt waiting for you on the radiator on a winter morning.
http://www.heatinghelp.com has a listing of qualified pros to help you find one near you.
...that's not a mistake, it's rustic
I agree with the others who say keep them, but if you don't you can put an ad in Old House Journal (I think the online one is free but I'm not positive) and I imagine you will get takers. Just be sure to state the area you are in and whether you will deliver or they have to pick up. Giving number and sizes will help, and if you can post a picture someplace even better.
http://www.oldhousejournal.com/swapsandsales/index.shtml
Thank you, belatedly, for that very practical and helpful information ... I hate to get rid of them, but we don't always get what we want! I appreciate that resource --- I imagine I'll be checking it often. Thanks!
I'm going to guess that you're changing from steam to forced hot water as a function of changing from oil to gas - from what I've been told, more efficient to heat water to boiling with oil than with steam - based on more BTUs per unit oil than same unit of gas (?) - that being said - you should be able to use the old steam radiators for forced hot water if you can run the lines - I believe MA allows the use of PEX for forced hot water systems so you could do a manifold and run lines to/back to the manifold for zoning and control - might be able to run the PEX in the same lines/areas as the steam supply line
Hi, I'm new to this forum , but i did sell two steam radiators this past spring by advertising them in a statewide buy, sell, trade, pamphlet. they sold within a day for $50.00 bucks apiece and the guy drove 47 miles to get them. I definitely got the impression i could have gotten a bit more for them.
I have two uses for old raditiors. I use and love them in my house, and I met them down for my artwork http://www.stevenjones504.com/foundry.html
Let me second the reply metioning the fine folks at heatinghelp.com, esp. Steamhead Frank, and let me second (or third) to suggest that in the hands of a compented and knowledgeable steam heat contractor, your system should be lovely.
And it is with a sad heart that i melt down old raditors, but they are so thin and perfect for flowing into molds for sculpture.