The question has been asked and is important for homeowners to understand why deposits are important to pay to contractors before the beginning of work. The nature of the discussion includes which contractors are worth paying or even entering into a contract with. If such a topic is not wrthy of this forum, it has lost all value.
The OP wrote the following well stated position…
“Background
Here goes my red flag – I am a licensed architect. Before you stop reading, I am also a licensed contractor. I have over twenty years experience in design and construction. For several years I owned and operated my own construction company. I did not work for the public. I worked for myself doing real estate development and self-performed most of the work except for MEP, masonry, flooring and tile. However, I have done all these jobs to some extent myself in the past and I can appreciate the difficulties of each trade. You just can’t do it all alone and make money so I got some help. I got out when the RE market tanked. Just understand that I know what construction is about and what it’s like to work in the cold, heat, rain, snow, with complaining neighbors, with cracked hands, no-show help, insurance costs, equipment costs, job site theft, etc., etc., etc. I also know the joys of framing on a sunny spring day, the pleasure of trimming out a house, etc. It’s not all bad.
Now you may want to know why I am not familiar with a contractor’s desire to be paid at signing, right? Well I am very familiar with that and have had subs work both ways. Some will demand money up front and I pay. I have found these subs through good contacts so I am not too concerned but you never can tell. Some show up, do the work and leave without ever asking for a dime. I have even had to track some subs down to pay them! Incidentally, I can say that the best workmanship has been received from the subs that do not ask for deposits.
The concern for homeowners is that contractors will not show up. Most people I know who are not involved in construction in some way have a difficult time getting any work done on their house. The typical scenario is to call ten people; five call back, three show up to give an estimate and one gives you a price. Now the customer thinks – will this guy show up? Maybe other geographic areas have tradesmen that are actually in the trade by choice, respond and do quality work. I am in the northeast of the country and here there are a lot of mostly disreputable, small (1-5 men) businesses that are difficult to work with. For my projects I had a difficult time finding tradesmen that would even take on large projects like mine. Example – plumber shows up to give estimate to RI plumbing and install fixtures. “Yea, Yea, great job, love to help, do this all the time!†Never hear from them again. They do have ads though in newspapers for new water heater, new toilet, city violations corrected, etc. You all know these guys, they want a quick buck. Who wants to RI in house for two weeks? They are not even sure if they can make money that way. (Not trying to disrespect any one trade, plumbers, just an easy example) There are also other companies that have better reputations but their prices are through the roof. It seems you pay a premium just to have someone answer the phone and show up. Sometimes the costs are not justifiable for the work from the more reputable contractors. Especially if you are familiar with what you are getting.
Down Payment
Without totally thinking this through, the escrow account is probably the best option. However for the guy who wants money up front to provide confidence in the customer, he still does not have it. The escrow should be collateral enough. Your concern is getting paid and the customer has the money to pay for the job. The escrow account will verify this. You need to trust that the owner will not withdraw the money for something else. The fact that they set up the account should be enough to know their intent to have work done is sincere. A homeowner does not want to give someone 5 – 10K before they even show up no matter how many references you have. Nor should you need the money. No permits yet so you can’t start work. What do you need to pay for? That means you will probably spend or distribute this customer’s money before starting their job. Not ethical or smart business. If special or regular material needs to be ordered prior to the start of work (or even a permit if you are sure you will get it – think zoning) submit receipts to the owner and have them pay you, there’s no problem with that. You should be working on credit with suppliers so you have at least thirty days. If you do not have credit, stop reading.
Payment Draws
As for payment draws I will assume that the owner has the money and it is in a verifiable account, no bank loans to coordinate with. Let’s assume a large job, 50K – 100K. I would suggest a down payment of $1000. Not too many people I know have 1K burning a hole in their pocket and would not want to walk away from that. Then another $1000 when permits are received. This is more good faith on the customer’s part because although you have done your job by applying for the permit, you are still not on site. Now you have 2K of someone’s money and have done nothing except estimate, talk to the owner about the job and file for permits. That should cover your expenses to date. Wait 4 – 6 weeks for a permit. Next, get a larger negotiated draw when work starts, i.e. you show up on site “hammer in handâ€. Subsequent draws should be made upon inspections, not at the beginning of a portion of work. Example, when framing is approved, not when framing starts; when plumbing RI is approved, not when plumbing starts. This provides the owner with assurances that the work has been properly completed or at least to code. This is helpful for the general public who does not know anything about what you are doing and does not have an architect working with them. Even if there is an architect involved, most do dot really know anything about construction anyway so pay-after-inspection is a really good way to go. This means you need to have enough cash available to keep your subs going if they need cash for material, labor etc. Your subs should work the same way you do and if not, we start this argument over again. Keep this draw schedule going until a pre-negotiated retainer for punch list work is reached. By now, if all is well, you should not be concerned about getting your final payment. Your work should also be of a high enough quality to minimize the required punch list.
Contracts
Throw out yours. Stop paying a lawyer to review them too. You hired a lawyer in case of litigation, right? Well if you do get into a law suit rest assured opposing counsel will dispute every sentence of your contract in their client’s favor. Use AIA forms. There are abbreviated forms (5 pages) for small projects as well as more extensive forms for larger projects. Read them before making your judgment. These forms have been tried in the legal system for years. If you are caught in litigation the attorneys on both sides will be familiar with them. They do not favor architects. I repeat, read them. They protect contractors as well. More than likely, there isn’t an architect involved on your project anyway. If you do want to hire a lawyer, have them modify the AIA contract to remove architect references and replace with owner. Just some advice. You can keep using your form and hope that it will protect you someday if you ever need it to.
Enough Said
This debate could go on forever and I am aware of holes in this argument as well. Spare the critique. Realize most homeowners have heard more stories about poor contractors than good ones and they are apprehensive. So are you, understood. Contractors never talk about the good owners, only the ones who stiff them or are difficult to work with. Both sides choose their “partner†cautiously and hope for the best. “
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Replies
To which I reply the following...
"Now, you don't need to read this if you don't want to, but I'm willing to bet there are 2-3 or more HOs out there with similar questions in mind, so I'm willing to expose them to a little chance to understand facts and circumstances behind some of this. They can use the search function to look for other past discussions on the subject as well.
as to holding a deposit on residential vs commercial work. ( I see you have done most of your own stuff and aren't too familiar with either in practice) the commercial contracting has some very specific specs all written up before anyone bids on it, so costs are pretty definite and know ahead of time, including the time frame/schedule/ for all work. So I would know what my cost of money is and include that in my bid. Let's say it is one percent per month. as a GC, I can easily be turning over a hundred grand a month on a commercial job. so the cost of money is enough to make a couple of truck payments. Why should I give that away?
Fact is, my recent large work has been residential. I turned fifty to 80K a month. I had about forty of my own money to work with and another forty in a line of credit. Whether I am using my own, or using that LOC from the bank, money has a cost to rent it. So if you want to make clear to me that you will not pay until X point, that is fine, but I will price the work to include the cost of money of mine that you are using to do your job. You will not get it for free. Not from me, and not from the bank either.
So you think you don't trust me to front me the money?
Why did you call me then? Any and all relationships are based on trust. If you do not want to trust me, why should I trust you? we are getting off to a bad first step here, aren't we?
But again, the fact is, if you called me, it is because somebody in town has already told you how good my work is, how lucky you would be if you could get on my list, and what a great value I am. Surely when dialing my number, you didn't think all that came with being the cheapest most untrustworthy guy in town, did you?
I'm also not the stupidest hammer swinger out here either, so tell me again, why would you think I want to spend all my money to do your work? I can sit home and play the market for the same risk/reward ratio. and not wear out my tools, equipment, and body in the process.
You stated, " A homeowner does not want to give someone 5 – 10K before they even show up no matter how many references you have. Nor should you need the money."
Maybe you know different HOs than I work for. I have regularly had deposits of ten, twenty, and forty grand before signing a contract. Some jobs done even all the way on a smile and a handshake.
should I need the money? That is inconsequential. I get it. They pay it, often volunteering it without my asking. They motivate me and save themselves the cost of renting my money that way.
" What do you need to pay for? That means you will probably spend or distribute this customer’s money before starting their job. Not ethical or smart business. "
so you are accusing all contractors of being unethical and assuming that you know what they do with the money, eh? Let's read on in your proclamation and see how wrong you are here on this.
"Let’s assume a large job, 50K – 100K."
Bad assumption - that is not a particularly large job, only the amt of a monthly draw.
"I would suggest a down payment of $1000"
A job small enough to warrant that small of a deposit is not worth receiviong it and doing the book-keeping for. on a job the size you assume, I need 5-20K to schedule you, depending...
" Not too many people I know have 1K burning a hole in their pocket and would not want to walk away from that. "
Happens all the time. Sounds like you are not only choosing a lower life-form for a contractor, but thinking of low scale customers as well. Anyone getting into a 50-100K home remo has to get their ducks in a row. If they can't part with that much, they can't afford the job anyways, so they are wasting the contractor's time.
" Now you have 2K of someone’s money and have done nothing except estimate, talk to the owner about the job and file for permits. "
That is not nothing and is worth well over two grand. Just an accurate estimate can run close to two grand, and the same for time to shepherd a permit through. Some places, the permit fees alone can be ten grand. You want a contractor to spend that on an uncertain outcome?
Scheduled progress draws are fine with me. I can set the times, progress detail, and amounts. All you need to do is pay that day. you seem to think ten or fifteen grand per will be about right, so be ready for lots of intermediate draw payments. One concrete pour can run that much.
"Contracts
Throw out yours. Stop paying a lawyer to review them too."
are you trying to get your self in trouble with the bar now too?
;)
each state has requirements for residential contractors and the paperwork they handle, most protecting the HO more than the contractor, but the AIA contract yopu recommend will not meet the individual state requirements and get most of us dummies in trouble with the judge. is that your goal here? To woo us, win us over to following you and your thinking, then to sabotage us and send us all to bankruptcy couirt so you can make millions representing us there?
I see thru you greedy beady little scheme! You can't fool me, you, ,,,architect, you!!!
"Enough Said
This debate could go on forever and I am aware of holes in this argument as well. Spare the critique. Realize most homeowners have heard more stories about poor contractors than good ones and they are apprehensive"
True. Which is why they should check things out and find a good guy by rep and pay his price on his terms to seal the deal instead of looking for the cheapest ones around and hoping for the best. They can build a good relationship that is worthwhile with a worthy builder if they are willing to put two cents into it. Those builders are out there. And that kind of relationship builds more than houses. It builds homes and communities.
"
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Some good points. Better than the average pout. "No pay, no work"
Fair enough for the need for a deposit. I know many people never question this and many contractors get it. So 1K is not enough and...
<<A job small enough to warrant that small of a deposit is not worth receiviong it and doing the book-keeping for. on a job the size you assume, I need 5-20K to schedule you, depending...>>
A 50K - 100K job gets 10-20% down if I understand you. Let's put it out there that there are no free estimates if you sign a contract. They are in the cost of the job. It's the ones you don't get that you eat and they outnumber the successful bids. That's just another issue. Anyway, if you have to file a permit and wait 4-6 weeks what are you doing with the money?
If you are paid within 5 davs of invoice your suppliers, men etc. are all paid before you need to dip into your capital providing you have submitted an invoice to allow for the time difference with your suppliers invoices. No need to be a bank.
"A 50K - 100K job gets 10-20% down if I understand you. Let's put it out there that there are no free estimates if you sign a contract. They are in the cost of the job. It's the ones you don't get that you eat and they outnumber the successful bids. That's just another issue. Anyway, if you have to file a permit and wait 4-6 weeks what are you doing with the money? "Fair questions. A lot of that under my unfinished phrase, "depending"
I may take a small deposit to show commitment until day of startup and then cash the check for twenty grand.But I also do the design work, so I am likely to have already been in payment schedule for time designing and permitting to 6-8 grand before start of physical work. It has beween mentioned in the other thread that there are other up front costs before starting on site, scheduling subs and ordering the special materials, custom fittings etc. I have had twenty grand into a job I'd done no design on before getting there.
The job that openned my eyes on this was when a customer had agreed with me that I would star the day after Labour day weekend. This was six weeeks previous. I was building my house myself that summer and had nothing else going on and kept open for him. A lot of work here is on summer cottages and folks want it done during winter and schedule tight to get it finished to move in by Memorial day again.as agreed, the day after Labor day. I drove in and started unloading staging at 7AM.
About 8:30 AM, he showed up in the driveway, groggy looking, unshaved, and in his robe asking me "What is going on here? My wife can't sleep with all this noise."Of course, they were supposed to be gone, and the job was a master bedroom suite remo. I reminded him of start date agreed and tight schedule. he apologized and said they'd decided to stay another three weeks, could I reschedule?I did, but with no other work planed, cash was VERY tight for a bit. He took care of that. but the experience was a warning to me. If the customer wants to make me wait it out after agreeing, I do it on their money since they caused the cost impact."If you are paid within 5 davs of invoice your suppliers, men etc. are all paid before you need to dip into your capital providing you have submitted an invoice to allow for the time difference with your suppliers invoices"True enough, but that requires immaculate scheduling of money flow. Upset the cart and the cost is there. I prefer to invoice once a month to save office time ( overhead that eventually passes on to the customer) so it is common enough to have forty grand of my money out on top of the twenty to forty grand deposit you gave me by the time I get my check. Then since it is an out of state check, the bank holds it for a few days before I can access it.Since the lumberyard bills me at the first and expects payment by the tenth, I have to turn that around in only a few days to keep that cash flow as immaculate as you imagine.
Works fine when the customer, me, the bank, and the supplier are all in the same town, or when the customer is willing to pay by wiring funds into my account.
That is about a third of the time. Who pays for the rest?
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Throw out yours. Stop paying a lawyer to review them too. You hired a lawyer in case of litigation, right? Well if you do get into a law suit rest assured opposing counsel will dispute every sentence of your contract in their client’s favor. Use AIA forms.
I encourage my clients to use AIA forms and many do, especially for big commercial jobs. The problem is that someone often wants to add or delete or change something. I encourage clients to have me review the proposed changes to make sure that the intent is both understood and carried out and that the changes don't create any internal inconsistencies. For a few minutes of work, I don't charge my clients anything, but even if I need to spend an hour or two, on anything over four figures, I'm cheap insurance. Besides, if contractors don't pay their lawyers, we'll need to ask Congress for a bailout.
No contractor in his right mind hires a lawyer just for litigation. Once litigation starts, the contractor's already screwed. They should hire us to keep them out of litigation.
The concern for homeowners is that contractors will not show up.
Man was he ever right on that point. Whoever said 90% of success in life is just showing up understated it. I love my contractor because he does a good job at a fair price, but the fact that he shows up when he says is the clincher. We used to use a painter who did a great job at a fair price, but he was just too unreliable about coming to work. We could have sent him enough work to last him for years, but couldn't refer him to friends without telling them he'd be at their house, off and on, forever.
Edited 11/18/2008 5:01 pm ET by smslaw
I am so glad to feel the slow buzz of the professional tone, and responses to that buzz, in this thread.
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"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
"Whoever said 90% of success in life is just showing up understated it."that is so much a part of me, that I just can't understand anyone who doesn't. It is as foreign as female hormones to me, and the....never mind or I'll be in trouble with some ladies here;)There are a couple famous actresses here. I had done quite a bit of work for one of them, and we ran into each other at a party of some sort. I was introducing her to my daughter, and she started in on complimenting me to the heavens.
Her voice was getting louder as she sang my praises, so I was getting embarassed, and I tried to tone her down out of humility, but that just made her go off even louder, "well, at least you getterdun"I could feel my neck and face blushing by then, and dear daugher was slyly snickering..
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FWIW.
I will never finance a customers project, if they can't pay I'll stay home and work on my own house for free.
I will never jeoprodize my excellent credit with a promise to pay. If I have to pay the bill while using the courts for restutution... I'm back to financing someone elses dream.... which I don't do.
If you can't handle it, hire your own employees to do the project.... try not paying them. Let us all know how it works out.
I can't believe how patient you're being with this guy.
I know, I know, you're actually directing your response to all the other clients who have similar concerns but aren't as belligerent as this schmuck. Still...
The reasons for deposits and payments have been detailed. (Reservation of time in the schedule, financing costs on expenses (expenses often occur before "construction" has begun), etc., etc.).
Why would someone still be questioning this payment structure after the reasons for it have been explained? Trust. They're afraid they'll get ripped off. I can understand that fear. It's not like it hasn't happened.
But the way to address that fear isn't to deconstruct and re-invent the standard payment system that is codified by states and their licensing boards; a system which exists for real, specific reasons.
The way to address that fear is to hire contractors that you know will not rip you off(as much as one can know anything). Not rip you off by taking your deposit and flying to Zurich, not rip you off by doing substandard work, not rip you off period.
Get references. Ask your neighbors. Don't pick the cheapest guy (unless he happens to be well recommended and reputable). Oftentimes it will be a guy or firm that has been around for a while.
And when you find the guy or gal or firm you trust, who does good work and whom you get along with:
Maintain that relationship. Pay well and promptly. Track costs, but don't nickle and dime. If you find mistakes, by all means point them out, but simply in order to correct them, not to celebrate your sleuthing. If you appreciate the quality of the work, say so. Remember that your builder is a human being, dealing with all the strains any other person is.
And for god's sake, don't imply or talk about how contractors are dumb, or insolvent or crooks. That only reflects on the relationships you invite, foster and maintain. In short, it only reflects on you.
k
Good response.
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If you find mistakes, by all means point them out, but simply in order to correct them, not to celebrate your sleuthing.
That is really good advice. I have had a handfull of customers over the years who handled any issue this way, very solution oriented, now I count those people as more than customers. They are truly my clients.
It is the customers who are some combination of detective and federal prosecutor that make life miserable........always looking to nail somebody to the wall.Naive but refreshing !
I don't do the kind of number$ Piffin does as I have a non-construction job in the winter and only do seven months a year swinging a hammer. But I charge for estimates; require a deposit of 50% of estimated cost to schedule a job for anyone I do not know; and do all jobs on T&M. On jobs that take over a month, I require a progress draw every two weeks, too.
This is how I make sure I'm not gonna get stiffed by some crooked HO...and believe me, pal, there are many more of them out there than there are nogüdnik contractors (statistically, there's gotta be because there's a helluva lot more HO's than contractors).
OTOH, for clients I know well I will sometimes start a job based on just an e-mail or a phone call, and will bill them when it's all done, as long as I can get it done inside the time I can 'float' the materials bills with my suppliers.
Right now, I am doing a moderate-sized face-lift on a run-down rental condo for a guy I've never met. He was referred to me by the local big box, and phoned me from New Orleans to commission the work: New floors, refinishing damaged tables and counters; installing a home theatre system; replacing half the furniture. He sends in his deposit and draws by wire transfer, and I send him invoices and photos by e-mail of the completed work. I didn't know him from Adam; he didn't know me from Eve...and he had a recommendation from a saleswoman he'd only met once. But we've built a relationship of trust in a short time. Next time he needs a small job done, he'll get it 'Net 30'.
This business is about trust, as Piffin said. If you don't trust me, hire somebody you do. If I don't trust you, you will pay in advance, in full...but probably not at all because I usually won't work for people like that on any terms. Which is just as well.
Life is too short to spend it worrying about how I might get screwed.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
foolish men call Justice....
Edit: Meant to address this to ALL.
Like every contractor I've known, I prefer referrals to any other kind of business. But even then I trust my intuition more than the word of a good client, to help me decide if I'll write a deal with their friend or neighbor.
Intuition is both natural to humans and learned. The learning comes from experience and listening with a quiet mind.
When I get a feeling off of someone which reminds me of other clients, both favorable and unfavorable, that's experience talking.
When I'm listening quietly and attentively, and something just doesn't feel right, I'm better prepared to focus on that, in the moment, then ask the potential client if something is troubling them.
The response to such a question will either confirm that something is amiss or it will help the other person to open up about their concerns. So, either trust will be built or distrust will be made more clear to me.
From there it's a simple decision, whether or not to proceed, made without rancor or recriminations.
Some would say that I've had remarkably good fortune, doing business with home owners and general contractors. I can count the number of times I've been stiffed for small amounts on one hand. Never lost any substantial sums. Never been to court.
Why is that? I can feel it coming so I'm able to avoid it or deflect it.
One example of deflecting: I was once doing a trim job on a new home for an Italian GC from NYC, something I'd picked up on my own without references, just out looking for work.
About half way through the job I started getting "that feeling", so I decided to tell him a little story about a minor Italian crime family member who had a small get-away place, not far from my home. I'd met the gentleman through another client/neighbor so I felt comfortable, concocting a little story about working for him.
Worked perfectly. No more funny feelings, got paid in full within minutes of completing the job.
It's not that he was afraid of me or the bad guy, just that he didn't want his name to come up in the wrong circles. It was a good decision on my part and on his, one that reminded him not to judge a book by it's cover.
Edited 11/19/2008 5:09 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Piffen,
I believe KFC mostly nailed it,
however
the O.P. makes some serious mis-judgements and mis-characterizations.
consider:
a homeowner calls 10 contractors
only one of them( likely you or I) shows up at the appointed time prepares a detailed written proposal and is obviously qualified to do the job
the O.P.--for some reason wants to attempt to punish the one guy prepared to do the job---based on the performance of the other9 no shows!
well-that is certainley his perogative---but life is going to be pretty miserable for him---because you and I simply say" it's been nice talking to you"--and move on to the next paying customer.
the way I see it---- my customers-or prospective customers have a problem they need solved.
I can solve them--here are my terms---which include a deposit!
most of my projects will run anywhere from $400 up to $26,000. the majority will be in the $6,000 to $12,000 range. I get a 50% deposit--and the balance is due upon completion---typically before i leave the driveway. my projects are short term--completed within a few days at most.
If I don't have a project--- I will stay home with a song in my heart-because frankly--solving other peoples problems is inconvienient to me-- i have a lot of interests and other things that i would prefer to do.
that deposit???? It's not a matter of "need"--and who is ANY prospective customer to tell me what MY need is anyway?????, LOL
now--20 years ago???--well frankly it WAS a matter of Need--and if I didn't get that deposit I was taking SERIOUS risks-- But now?????Well typically NOW I am better off than my customers-I don't "need" the deposit----but I darn well am going to GET that deposit because GETTING THE DEPOSIT is how I got into the position that I don't "need" it.
I apologise if this comes across as a little harsher or arrogant than I intend.- In person I am pretty quiet, mild and un-assuming-- BUT I GET THE DEPOSIT.
If A prospective customer doesn't want to pay the deposit--that's fine-- I will remind them that THEY called ME, not the other way around------and then I will happily move on to my next project.
Best wishes, All,
stephen
All good points, especially the assumptions made by the OP. I saw that but tried to focus more on the generalities that benefit everyone.When I was roofing, I required a 30% deposit. When I was young and dumb I let that slide on ONE job. The lady first balked at any deposit and I held firm. Then she had her banker call me and explain that it was not legal to pay more than a 10% deposit. I later found out that was a bald-faced lie, but at the time I felt like I had egg on my face and sure didn't want some banker turning me in for whatever, so I let him bargain down to 10% deposit with his promise that my check would be waiting at his office ( she was financing the job through him) the day I finished.That job turned into a nightmare of great proportions, and a lesson in human behaviour. She ended up wanting this and that thrown in for free, none of which she got, but each request made me stop work to be tactfull and explain why not.And she wanted me to wait until 9:30 AM to start, so she could get her beauty sleep. Believe me, the fat slob needed it if it was going to help her beauty.I finished on a saturday, to put the ridge on and pick up. It was about an 18 sq roof that I'd ordered 19 squares for and when loading up, she was demanding that it was her shingles I was loading. Contract was explicit about that, so I suggested that she review the paper. I was getting ready to explode, and she had gone to the banker friday and was holding my check in her grubby hand.After she re-read the contract, and I had my truck loaded, I told her, now listen, I'll be glad to leave you the half open bundle incase you have a tree limb poke a hole....but I always deliver extra to save a trip back to the yard, and those are NOT your shingles. She could see I was hot, and forked over the check.Worst customer I have ever had, and it started with that first signal up front, that she wanted me to cave in on the deposit. She also had an atitude similar to the OP, that she was assuming she would get screwed.But that was because her thinking revolved around how she could screw me and get more out of me than she was due.
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