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Residential septic systems

Cangowrongwillgowrong | Posted in General Discussion on November 30, 2008 09:38am

  Thanks to you all for all the helpful websites. My problem became apparent on Thanksgiving morning when flange spacers raising a basement toilet blew a silicon bead gasket and flooded part of the floor. I had just had my tank pumped in August but decided to take a peek anyway and discovered it was overfull. After that I looked into a drainfield vent riser and saw that it too had alot of water in it. 

  The wife and a couple daughters has done a bunch of laundry the 2 days before Thanksgiving and I think the field got saturated. (We have a top loader but are having a front loader deliverd this Thursday.) Anyway I’ve called the suck truck and will have him suck out the tank again and see if he can also suck some out of the drain field. Don’t know what else to do. I thought about siponing into a ravine until the truck comes but don’t especially want to do that.

  I’m wondering what the possibilities are that the field will recover from being flooded and if it does how long it will take. I assume the front loader will make a huge differnence. Supposedly a 67% reduction in water use per load.

thanks

 

 

 

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Replies

  1. DanH | Nov 30, 2008 09:46pm | #1

    What's the history? Had the thing previously overflowed? If so, then likely the drain field is clogged with solids from the septic tank (due to failure to pump it soon enough). Sometimes the drain field can be repaired by treating it with industrials stength hydrogen peroxide (a job that takes a specialist), sometimes you have to dig a new drain field.

    The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. --Wilhelm Stekel
    1. Cangowrongwillgowrong | Nov 30, 2008 10:05pm | #2

      Nope - When the tank was pumped last August the level was where it should be and everything else looked fine. Good crust and normal sludge layer that had not reached the effluent pipe level.

  2. sledgehammer | Nov 30, 2008 10:32pm | #3

    How old is the drainfield? Have you checked the d-box? You may have a collapsed or blocked exit pipe.

     

    Edit to add.... whatever you do.....don't call the health dept. They once condemed a property on me, adding more problems to the existing ones.



    Edited 11/30/2008 2:37 pm ET by sledgehammer

  3. JimB | Nov 30, 2008 11:34pm | #4

    Calling someone to pump the tank (and perhaps the field) is the first step, so you're on the right track. 

    If the only symptoms of the problem are backing up into the house, it's possible that the problem is just a blockage somewhere in the building sewer, the tank or the distribution box.  Saturation in the drainfield usually (but not always) shows up as squishy soil over the drainfield lines or a breakout of effluent in the drainfield area.

    If no blockage is found, the next step is to identify the problem.  Don't assume that the drainfield needs to be replaced, just because of it's age--doing so can cause unnecessary expense. 

    Elminate the possible "simple" causes first.  Check the your plumbing fixtures for leaks; leaky toilets can quickly overload a drainfield.  One way to check is to put a few drops of food coloring in the tank and watch to see if any of it leaks into the bowl.

    When the tank is pumped, have the pumper check for broken or clogged tee's or inlet/outlets and for cracks or leaking seams in the tank.  If you've been getting rain recently a leaky tank may cause the system to fail, especially if the tank is located in where it gets runoff from the yard or the roof.

    If the system has a distribution box, that should be uncovered and inspected by the pumper to be sure that it isn't clogged, broken, or full of tree roots.  Sometimes roots can be removed from the system to make the system function again.

    You (or the pumper) may be able to determine if the drainfield is saturated by probing into the lines with a tile probe.  If the lines are saturated, effluent may come to the surface through the hole left by probe.  Typically, when the drainfield is saturated, you also hear a "sucking" sound when the probe is pulled out.  Another way, though a bit messy, is to bore a hole in one or more lines with a soil auger to determine whether the effluent is below the level of the pipe in the trenches (ideally, there should be little effluent in the trenches and definitely it should be below the pipe).

    Typical advice is if a problem other than the drainfield is identified, fix it and try the system to see if it works.  If the drainfield is truly saturated, it's ususally because of a buildup of solids in the trenches.  That can be reversed, as Dan pointed out, by using peroxide, or by allowing the trenches to "rest" for an extended period (over a year).  But the typical fix is new, or at least some additional, drainfield.

    Siphoning the effluent into a ravine is definitely not recommended.  You can create a real health hazard.  You may wind up in the bad graces of the local health department and/or code enforcement staff, and you may end up paying a fine.  You should be able to find a pumper to come on short notice if you tell them that sewage is backing up into the house.

  4. IdahoDon | Dec 01, 2008 03:17am | #5

    are that the field will recover from being flooded and if it does how long it will take

    since you have maxed it out, now might be a good time to simply measure the water level in the tank and see how much of a drop you get every hour or so.  That's pretty much how well your field perks.  If you know the shape and size of your tank the galons/hour is easy to figure.  You could also drop in a known amount of water and see how much it raises your tank level.

    Of course ground conditions vary with seasons, but if it were me I'd be curious how fast things are perking. 

    Best of luck

     

    Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.

  5. john7g | Dec 01, 2008 04:37am | #6

    the soil over your drain field hasn't settled to allow it to collect rain water, has it?

    1. Cangowrongwillgowrong | Dec 01, 2008 07:34am | #7

      It's possible that all summer long rainwater has influenced the field. Now that you mention it I put a new gutter system on the house last summer and of course half the house runs out the ground spout 15 feet up hill of the drain field. Jeez, I can't beleive I didn't see that one coming..........

      Hope my water saver planning works and that it's not too late for the field to recover.  Time will tell.....

      Thanks to you all for the help.

       

      1. DaveRicheson | Dec 01, 2008 02:15pm | #8

        of course half the house runs out the ground spout 15 feet up hill of the drain field. 

         

        Add some 4" plastic  drain tile to those downspouts that dump onto the lateral field. Keep adding enough pipe until you are past the field or diverted away from it. Yopu can get the black corrugated pipe at any of the big box stores.

        Do you have a site drawing of the field ? It makes locating the distribution box(s) and lateral lines a lot easier. If you have to probe or dig anything out, be sure to take pictures with a known referance point  in them and add them to the file with a sketch of what you find.

        1. Cangowrongwillgowrong | Dec 01, 2008 03:47pm | #9

          Do you have a site drawing of the field ? It makes locating the distribution box(s) and lateral lines a lot easier. If you have to probe or dig anything out, be sure to take pictures with a known referance point  in them and add them to the file with a sketch of what you find.

          Will do the gutter diversion the first thing next spring before the rain starts. Thanks.

            I do have the drawing of the system design that the county has on file. The permit application is dated 1992 which makes the system about 16 years old.  There is no distribution box and the tank effluent line runs directly to the field pipe which is rectangular in shape, all connected with 45 degree corners laying in a bed that is 12 foot wide and 60 feet long. I think the verticle composition goes something like this: 12" top soil cover, membrane layer, 12 inches sewer rock with the 4" distribution piping located 2 inches down from the membrane. Laterally there is 6 feet between the 2 long legs with each leg sitting 3 feet in from the trench side wall. There is also a vent/inspection pipe plumbed into the system on the far end. That is where I was able to see the field was flooded. Don't really have another question but thought someone might comment on the bed design and it's relative age.

          Thanks again.

            

           

           

           

           

          1. DaveRicheson | Dec 01, 2008 06:06pm | #10

            That is where I was able to see the field was flooded.

            I have a similar field  shallow field design, but it is less than 10 years old. It doesn't get the usage yours gets, so thus far I have had no problem. I was told that I may need to an additional line if I ever exceed the limited volume the system was designed for.

            Maybe dinosaur will come along and make some suggestions. He seems to know a lot about this poo. (that is unless he got booted along with a bunch of the other regulars)

          2. HootOwl | Dec 01, 2008 08:26pm | #11

            FWIW...that's a mighty small field for the number of occupants/bedrooms....even if the soil is well-draining.  Around here it wouldn't be allowed...and absorbency is very good.  We must have 150' for the first bedroom and 100' for each additional bedroom.  Additionally, the pipes must be kept a minimum 10' apart ...unless physical circumstances don't allow for that and then a variance might be granted by the health department....if they so decide.

            The absorbency and life-expectancy of the drainfield soils can vary dramatically even they pass muster with the health department for a permit to proceed with installation.  If they meet the minimum absorbency standards, they will allow you to proceed with a conventional field such as you describe.  If not, something different must be done and the HD will usually dictate just what that is.

            It won't surprise me if your field is actually exhausted at this point because of the size to people ratio and the age of it...but before you jump to conclusions....how far is this vent/inspection pipe from the tank?  It is possible that there is an obstruction just downstream from your vent pipe.  For instance...if there is a stretch of solid pipe before the actual drainfield and those pipes weren't glued together, it's possible that they've shifted allowing dirt to encroach or similar.  Can you get a snake or a drain-jetter down the vent stack and head it out toward the drainfield?  If so, I'd give it a shot...just in case.  Cross your fingers. 

             

             

            Edited 12/1/2008 12:29 pm ET by HootOwl

          3. sledgehammer | Dec 02, 2008 01:50am | #12

            Am I reading right? Your entire drainfield is 26 cubic yards of stone?

            60' long x 12' wide x 1 foot thick?

             

            Edited 12/1/2008 5:53 pm ET by sledgehammer

            Edited 12/1/2008 5:55 pm ET by sledgehammer

          4. Cangowrongwillgowrong | Dec 02, 2008 04:23am | #13

            Yup - those are the measurements and the thing was supposedly professionally engineered.  At any rate it was permitted by the county,

              I had the drainfield pumped down and I can now look down into the field. I can see where one of the horizontal legs intersects the verticle vent / inspection pipe. It appears that the vent is located on one of the far corners of the field so it's doubtful there is an obstructed line past it. I think the thing was simply super saturated.

             I suppose now I'll let the tank fill back up to operating level and then see if things improve once by keeping most of the gray water out of the system. Looks like my house siding job is on hold..........just because a job starts doesn't mean it will end. Don't know who said that but it sure seems true at times.    

          5. sledgehammer | Dec 02, 2008 04:52am | #14

            Wow....  At this point, given the age and size I'd guess your drainfield is shot.... unless you live on the edge of the ocean in all sand soil.

             

            I hope putting less water into it will solve your problem..... but I doubt it.

          6. HootOwl | Dec 02, 2008 06:20am | #15

            Not that it's much consolation, but... a guy I know bought a house about a year ago ...in the middle of town, no less... that he naturally assumed, was hooked up to the city sewer.  Bought it "as is".  (Not a good plan, Stan.)

            About three weeks after taking possession, his "sewer" backs up into the basement.  I get the call.  A little investigation confirms that the place is actually still hooked up to its own septic system......and the previous owners poured a blacktop parking lot over the entire drainfield.  Not a good thing.

            The previous owner was, of all things...... a local real estate agency which had their business/office located in this house for quite a few years.  They knew exactly what they were selling him....and didn't care.  He has no legal recourse because he bought it......"as is".  He spent $6,000 this summer (not to me) getting hooked up to the city sewer.....and that didn't include replacing the strip of blacktop parking lot or the sidewalk that got torn up getting him to the sewer connection.

            Edited 12/1/2008 10:26 pm ET by HootOwl

          7. JimB | Dec 03, 2008 02:12am | #16

            There's no way to really comment on the size of the drainfield without knowing the absorption capacity of the soil (i.e., "perk rate"). 

            16 years is not old for a drainfield.  The most common cause of failure is hydraulic overloading, and if you can see effluent in the inspection pipe (a detail I missed before I posted my earlier reply) that's a problem.  You've already identified one possible source of excess water that can be removed:  the drainage outlet up-slope of the drainfield.  As I mentioned before, check for plumbing leaks and leaks in the septic tank.  If you have a large surface area that drains toward the drainfield, a french drain upslope of the drainfield, with outlets below the drainfield might help.  Hard to say without seeing it.

            Good luck.

             

          8. Cangowrongwillgowrong | Dec 03, 2008 02:30am | #17

            The proposed absorption area is 720 ft2, the loading rate .63 and the perc rate is 6 inches/minute. Those are the numbers off the permit. What think????

          9. Cangowrongwillgowrong | Dec 03, 2008 02:32am | #18

            6 inches per minute seems out of sight. I re-read the permit and the rate is stated as: Minutes / Inch. So I assume in 6 minutes it drops 1 inch, or did at the time of the test.  Sorry about the confusion.........Now what think???

          10. brownbagg | Dec 05, 2008 02:51pm | #29

            So I assume in 6 minutes it drops 1 inch, or did at the time of the test. rule of thumb was no fater than 1 inch in five minute, or slower than five inches in one hour.

          11. sledgehammer | Dec 03, 2008 03:31am | #19

            That would mean you drainfield will take 2,700 gallons per minute just fine.

             

            I'm thinking there is a problem here.

            Edited 12/2/2008 7:32 pm ET by sledgehammer

          12. Cangowrongwillgowrong | Dec 03, 2008 04:31am | #20

            I revised the first message from inches per minute to minutes per inch so I think it's more like  720 ft.2 x .63 gal/day/ft.2 = 453.6 gal per day

            the bed would hold approx. 450 gallons at 60'x12'x1" deep, I think anyway

          13. sledgehammer | Dec 03, 2008 04:52am | #21

            Yes you are kinda correct. 450 gallons/ minute should be percolating outta that system per minute... not day.

            That's alot of water...

            Somehow I think the solution to your problems are deeper then a water saving washing machine.

            Edited 12/2/2008 8:53 pm ET by sledgehammer

          14. JimB | Dec 04, 2008 03:51pm | #23

            6 minutes per inch is a very fast percolation rate, but not unusual for sand.  And the area of the drainfield would appropriate.  I've sized them smaller for a three-bedroom home in very sandy soils with no problems--but my experience is primarily with trench systems rather than with beds.  I think trench systems are inherently better for most soils, but probably less important as the percolation rate gets faster.

            Since I'm not familiar with Wisconson soils, I can't say whether or not the percolation rate makes sense.  If it is correct, either poor construction, damage to drainfield or clogging of gravel/soil interface.  It's possible that the soil at the depth of the drainfield has a percolation rate of 6 minutes per inch but there is a soil horizon just below that depth with a much higher percolation rate that causes the water moving out the drainfield to slow and has become clogged over time.

          15. Cangowrongwillgowrong | Dec 05, 2008 03:05am | #25

            I just had the tank and drain field pumped. My plan is to divert the gray water and just use the tank for the toilets and get it pumped when necessary to avoid using the drain field for a while.  Then when spring comes I thought I'd dig down in the drainfield and examine the pipe and media. I'm hoping a rest this winter might right a few wrongs made against the field. What do you think of my plan?? Lots of pumping expense but the alternative is more costly and a pain in the rear with frozen ground.

          16. junkhound | Dec 05, 2008 05:45am | #26

            Still say it is a good excuse to buy a small backhoe!

            If my system ever had your problems, it would have been dug up by the 2nd day of getting possible causes listed. Even with a shovel, you should be able to inspect the tank to dbox line. 

          17. JimB | Dec 05, 2008 02:00pm | #27

            Resting the drainfield for a period of time by diverting excess water can help, in some cases, depending on the problem.  This is mostly effective when the interface between the gravel and soil is clogged by solids in the effluent that get out of the septic tank into the drainfield.  In that case, resting the system allows dry/aerobic conditions in the drainfield to help the soil organisms breakdown the solids.  The build up of solids can be checked by boring a hole in the df.

            But personally, I'd want to find the cause of the problem before undertaking that course of action.  Whatever you spend to divert the graywater ( in most areas putting it on the ground surface is a violation) and pump the tank once in a while is may be a waste of money and effort. 

            Ruination posted some good suggestions, too.

            At this point, you probably would be well served by having a soil evaluator, designer or installer take a look at the site.  Sometimes there's a potential problem that is so obvious it slaps you in the face when you see the site, but can't be explained or analyzed long distance.  Here's a list of onsite sewage professionals for Wisconsin: http://www.wowra.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi?type=designer.  Your local health department or plumbing inspector may be able to provide other names.

            I'd be interested in hearing how this goes for you.

          18. Cangowrongwillgowrong | Dec 05, 2008 02:43pm | #28

            thanks, I'll keep you posted

          19. Cangowrongwillgowrong | Dec 05, 2008 03:29pm | #30

            .....there's more: To the best of my knowledge I do not have an access hatch on the effluent side of the round tank, just a 4 inch hole with an inspection pipe to above ground.  Through that pipe I can see the baffle and it appears to be in place but it is not what ruination described.  These tank baffles are u shaped metal that I assume are bolted onto the sides of the tank.  They cover the influent / effluent holes and extend down about, I'd guess, 2 or more, feet into what I assume would be the clear zone of the tank. Later today I can open the main hatch and drop a mirror down there to verify the effluent baffle is the same as the influent side. That one I can see quite well from the access hole. My assumption is that they are identical. I can take a picture if that helps. The baffles are not pipe as ruination describes and as I have seen in some more recent tank designs.

              My house is real old and the original sewer pipe exits out the basement slab which puts the tank pretty deep. I'd guess my hatch riser is nearly 30 inches tall and level with grade. To me, the only way to really know what's going on at the outlet is to take a good look which I cannot do through the 4" hole and won't do with a ladder. I used to operate a treatment plant and although I am not afraid of sewage I am well aware of the health issues both biological and from a confined space operational perspective.  Especially as it pertains to entering tanks.

              Maybe my only alternative is to get a hoe and rip up the frost on that end of the tank and then cut an access hole in the top so I can inspect the baffle close up and change it out is necessary. We'll see how good of a look I can get at it with the mirror later today. 

              You got me thinking when you mention that I may be missing something simple. That's about how it goes with me.

            * It appears the company that made these tanks has closed down so those details are lost.

             

          20. JimB | Dec 06, 2008 02:13pm | #31

            I can take a picture if that helps.

            I'd like to see a picture.  I've never seen a tank with metal baffles, although I've heard of them.  The areas where I've worked, some of the older tanks have concrete baffles.  They work well. 

            Since you've worked as a wastewater operator, you know what sewage/sewage gas can do to metal.  I'd be concerned about a corroded metal baffle allowing suspended solids (or even larger particles) to escape the tank and get into drainfield.

  6. User avater
    popawheelie | Dec 03, 2008 05:27am | #22

    I had the same problem. It turned out that the exit pipe had collapsed. Where the original pipe came out they had formed a concrete/mortar diverter where four pipes came out to the leach field and one pipe went in. Good idea except the waste water ate up the concrete/mortar. It was just a lump of sludge.

    You need to make sure every part of the system is draining. If that means digging up pipes that is what has to be done.

    Are you sure the field is flooded? I find it unlikely unless it was built wrong. Flooding a whole field would take A LOT of water.

  7. ruination | Dec 05, 2008 03:02am | #24

    Cango

     

    I understand your symptom was overflowing sewage in the house and that the tank was overfull and that the drainfield pipe was full.

     

    The question that comes to mind is, is the drainfield soil not absorbing the effluent because it is saturated or because the pipe is blocked?

     

    JimB suggested you check to see if the drainfield was saturated and gave some methods to do this.  If the drainfield is saturated then there is no problem with the tank or pipe and the area is simply taking in more water than it can handle from other sources such as rainwater runoff or seasonal high water table and others have suggested solutions such as a French drain or running gutter runoff away from the drainfield.

     

    If it is not saturated then there is a plug.  The plug could be in a single location in the case of a collapsed pipe or could be the weep holes throughout the system are plugged by getting too much solid material escaping the tank.

     

    The former you can have checked by a plumber with a camera on a snake.  However since you indicated that the inspection pipe is at the far end of the drainfield then a plug in a single location seems unlikely.

     

    After verifying that the ground isn’t saturated and the pipes aren’t clogged then it seems likely your weep holes are plugged or more specifically, the soil immediately around each hole is clogged with sewage solids.

     

    Since the system was working normally (you indicated it had a good scum and didn’t indicate any problems) before it was pumped last time then something has changed.  One thing that will allow solids into the drainfield is if the exit baffle is broken off or mislocated.  I’ve had exit baffles break off as I pumped out the tank as the liquid fell below the baffle from increase in weight due to the loss of buoyancy.  As mentioned earlier in this thread, sewage gas is tough on concrete and a concrete exit baffle will die at some point. 

     

    The exit baffle is simply a pipe that comes into the side of the tank on the opposite side as the inlet that then makes a 90 degree turn downward.  Ideally, the opening to the exit baffle should be in the “clear” liquid in the middle of the tank, the things that float having by then floated up forming the scum on the top and the things that sink having sunk down forming the sludge on the bottom.  If either the floating material or the sinking material is going out the exit baffle because its opening is no longer in the middle then you’ve got a problem.

     

    The time to see if the baffle is still there would have been when the tank was pumped.  If your pumper knew you were having a problem he may have taken a look to see if it was still there.  Some tanks have a hatch over both inlet and outlet baffles.  If you have this you may be able to check it with the tank full.  Since you’ve just had yours pumped you may still be able to see it from the main hatch.  You are looking at the exit end wall to see if there is a 3 or 4 inch pipe coming straight in then with a 90 degree bend down and not an open hole in the wall.

     

    One way or the other, if the ground in the drainfield is not saturated but you’re getting flooding into the house, you need to know if it is still there or not.

     

    If it is there, systemic weep hole clogging may be caused by other things.  There are two organic materials that can plug a drainfield over time, lignin and oil.  These contaminants are difficult for microorganisms to consume and will then persist in the soil for years, perhaps 8 to 10 years or more.

     

    In the case of oil, this would be light oil such as vegetable oil, especially olive oil.  A light oil like this tends to become partially emulsified and may remain suspended in the middle clear liquid and therefore eventually exit the tank and find its way to the drainfield. 

     

    Good practice for a septic tank owner is never pour vegetable oil down the drain.  Animal fats are no problem because they quickly rise to the surface.  The oil may come from cooking or from the shower in the case where it is used as a moisturizer.  Some women use olive oil when tanning and shower afterward.  How much vegetable oil or olive oil do you buy from the grocery store?  That might give you some idea how much goes into your septic tank.

     

    Another is lignin.  As you know, it comes from wood, the natural composite of cellulose and lignin.  In a septic tank, it comes from toilet paper.  The organic community in the tank fairly easily digests the cellulose in the paper leaving the lignin behind.  If your TP stays together when it gets wet then it should float to the top forming the scum and it will be removed when the tank is pumped.  If it disintegrates, the particles may become suspended and exit the tank, eventually clogging the pores of the drainfield soil.  The cellulose in the particles will decompose leaving the lignin behind to clog the pores of the soil.

     

    Another problem is if the community in your tank is killed off.  This can happen if someone in the house is on antibiotics.  The antibiotic is excreted by the kidney and ends up performing its function in your septic tank by eliminating the bacteria that decomposes the sewage.

     

    Still another is a lot of bleach.  Normal usage in a load of clothes, maybe a couple cups a day will not adversely affect the action of a healthy tank.  It takes a fair amount in regular usage but too much can shut it down.

     

    Just some more things to think about.

     

     - r

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