*revised* Wow, some really great info, thanks guys. keep it coming.
Thanks, Dave.
Hey guys. I have a job coming up where I am removing and rebuilding some porch handrail that are rotted. Being located in historic Niagara-on-the-Lake, I have to reproduce what was there. Not a problem so far. One post is a little ornate but I should be able to handle it.
There are three other posts with some rot at the base. The customer wants it just filled instead of replaced. Having never done that I thought I would consult the wealth of knowlege I have come to enjoy (Breaktime). I have been told that alot of guys around here use “Bondo” for this type of thing.
Suggestions?
Thanks,
Dave
Edited 8/8/2007 12:21 am ET by Doctor Dave
Replies
I'm smack dab in the middle of fixing/rebuilding some severly rotted window sash and jambs that are ancient.
I'll share some gleanings. Minwax wood hardener is not to be found around here, But Elmers markets one ( you need a hardner prior to filler on rot) Elmers looks , smells, dries, just like its white glue, because that is all it is, just 2x the price.
Abatron, West systems and Minwax and bondo are all good, IF you can (A) find it (B) justify the cost (esp. West) and (C) can wait for shipping and or experimental time.
I have found good old PLPremium makes and excellent glue,caulk, small void filler...as to wood hardner, I wet the wood with lac thinner , then thin lacquer is swabbed on till i t soaks in, dries hard. Then have at attaching the filler to the reinforced rot. I also drill a few holes and glue/drive in tooth picks or bamboo skewers to pin into the still sound wood, and end nip the excess away.
Otheres have thier favorite method, this is not my favorite, but what is working on this project so far. G'luck.
Dave, West Marine stocks West System Epoxy. They have a store located on Niagara Street in Buffalo (a mile or so north of the Peace Bridge).
They've got a range of fillers, also. But sometimes I use fine sawdust as a filler (from an orbital sander), or somewhat coarser sawdust from a bandsaw.
Allen
Edited 8/1/2007 7:52 am ET by WNYguy
Besides what the others have suggested, there is http://www.smithandcompany.org
I think they may be the the oldest in the field. Good stuff.
Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
Smith's water-thin epoxy is state of the art - but it had terrible fumes! I almost killed my chemical-sensitive stepson- he had to stay a a motel until the fumes abated.
If you can use it, it's the best, But be warned!
Edited 8/2/2007 9:45 am ET by kate
Yes, the penetrating resin is nasty stuff no doubt. It does seem to go inert once sealed up though.
I have added that warning to posts in the past. Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
The repair turned out super well - the old chestnut beam is like stone now. Getting there was nasty, so I'll be using another product in future. I'm really sorry about the fumes - the penetration ability of Smith's is so great!
I needed to repair a double mailbox post that had rotted off at ground level. Was two 4x4 redwood posts. I cut each off at about a 20 degree angle (wedge shape) and then fastened on new pieces similarly trimmed. Glued and screwed with urethane, then drilled holes through the joints at several spots and glued in pieces of dowel. Not real pretty, but solid.
Another option is to use a router or some such to clean up surface rot, then glue in place "dutchmen".
I saw your post earlier today, but did not have a chance to answer it.
I have done a lot of this type of thing over the years, and I have a few thoughts I can offer you based on this experience.
First, I have used an automotive epoxy (like Bondo), but I don't recommend it. Epoxy fillers formulated for wood expand and contract with the wood substrate, whereas the Bondo type products (formulated for metal) do not. Thus, in time your patch will generally crack where it meets the wood substate.
I have had great success with two wood epoxies; the first is the Abatron product mentioned earlier:
http://www.abatron.com/home002.htm
It is a lightweight product (easy to sand/shape), but only has a shelf life of a year (after that it will not dry).
The other is PC Woody (Epoxy paste):
http://www.pcepoxy.com/woodrestoreprods.htm
This product is a more heavy putty, but still shapes/sands easily, and the unused portions will last 3-4 years.
Both companies have a liquid epoxy consolidant (abatron = "Liquid Wood" and PC = "petrifier") -- and I highly recommend you treat the surrounding (raw wood) areas prior to using the putty. the Minwax Wood Hardener also works, and is generally cheaper)
Both of these filler products are expensive, but well-worth the cost if you are looking for a long-term fix. Any of the auto body epoxies are dramatically cheaper, and would be the way to go if you only need the fix to look good until the check clears.
EDIT: I'm not saying these are absolutely the best products, only that I have had long-term success with both. My local paint store carries the PC Woody, and I buy Abatron directly.
********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Edited 8/2/2007 2:35 am by nikkiwood
Thanks for the info. I am going to contact them immediately.
Dave
Couple of other tips:With both the products I mentioned, it is not necessary to have exactly the same amount of each for your mixture, but you should get as close as possible. I have a couple of old dinner spoons I use -- one for each part. The Abatron is a fairly dry product, and to mix it, I don a pair of nitril gloves, and knead it, like you would bread. The PC Woody is much stickier, so I mix it with a 1" putty knife, which I then clean with acetone. I mix it on a clean piece of luan plywood, which I then also clean with the acetone, so I can start with a smooth surface for the next batch.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
How much working time do you get with this stuff?
Dave
Neither one is like epoxy glues -- where you really have to hustle right along. I have never actually timed it, but I would guess for both the products I mentioned, you have at least 30-40 minutes from the time it is mixed, until it starts to harden.Right now, we are using the PC Woody to repair the deteriorated bottoms
of round, fluted porch columns (we are replacing the 3 piece base). I do them one column at a time, mixing up what I judge to be enough for that one column, using the excess on the next column. I then wait until the next day to sand and shape the epoxy.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
"How much working time do you get with this stuff?"I found that if you spread the epoxy onto the repair in a fairly thin layer, it takes a while to set up. However, if you mix a big pot of the stuff, the stuff in the pot can set up fairly quickly - the head from setting can build up which continues to speed up the hardening.
On a hot day it doesn't hurt to have some ice sitting around to cool the epoxy pot on.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
to make repairs i use a zip it to remove the damaged wood, then use a wood hardener, i sometimes use a spray bottle to apply the hardener, i use forms made from scrap wood lined with duct tape to shape the repairs, the products used will not stick to duct tape, a sureform tool is good for shaping
i use compressed air to clean the area to be repaired prior to applying wood hardener, if it is a small repair and i dont want to bring an air compressor along i use a can of compressed air
Edited 8/2/2007 4:08 am ET by factotam
I have done wood rot for most of my career of 30 years and have found that the Bondo type fillers really aren't any good in the long run for exterior use. This would include the Minwax epoxy wood filler. They do not adhere well and over time the patch will separate from the wood. I don't think I have ever done one repair with the stuff that that hasn't happened.
I use almost exclusively the Abatron Wood Epox. Use the full product of the consolidators, hardeners etc and you will have a better result.
I have also used the West System which is just as good, but I can't find it around here so you have to get it on line.
In my view, the best way around rot is to replace with a more rot resistant wood. If it's just a very small area, then the epox is good. I have used the epoxy for an entire post bottom like they advertise and it really does work. The stuff is actually structural. It's more cost effective in those cases to replace with wood in my opinion.
I have used a variety of epoxy fillers, and have had pretty good luck with them all, including Bondo. I have a couple of regular clients with some bondo-jobs going on 4-5 yrs old and so far they are doing fine. The key is removing all the punky wood, using a good wood consolidator to firm up the adjacent wood, and undercutting the cavity to be filled for a good mechanical "bond". If the hole is large, I try to fill it with wood blocks to minimize the amount of epoxy going into the patch. Work with small batches of epoxy, filling the voids with multiple layers if necessary. Learning how to blend the putty and hardener, and eventually tool the fillings takes practice. If you've never worked with 2 part epoxy fillers, I'd recommend practicing with a few small batches to get the feel of it. It can be tricky if you are working with vertical surfaces.
A few more tips.
Don't bother with disposable plastic scrapers. Use a decent 3 or 4 inch taping knife. Any residual epoxy can be sanded off the knife blades after it hardens. Keep one clean, sharp taping knife handy to tool the epoxy after it "kicks" but before it fully hardens. You will learn that once the epoxy "kicks" you will have a couple of minutes during which the epoxy can be "shaved" like a block of hard cheese. After that, you are sanding and filing.
I use cedar shingles for mixing my batches.
Wear nitrile gloves always, and if working inside, wear your respirator.
Lastly (or maybe firstly) fix the reason the original wood rotted to begin with. Otherwise, your efforts will only last as long as the remaining wood.
I have done a couple of jobs with "punky" wood that had come to resemble balsa wood. I ordered some penetrating epoxy from the Rot Doctor and it worked well at filling the porous wood. I was surprised at just how much (and how many $$$ worth) of the penetrating epoxy the wood soaked up. I finished off with a Bondo type product but my technique left a lot to be desired, fortunately, most of the area was covered by siding. On a later job, I found some penetrating epoxy at my local lumber yard (Truitt and White in Berkeley, CA). Unfortunately, that stuff did not work well at all. It may have been old or a bad batch but it never completely hardened, so I had to cut it all out and start over.
http://www.rotdoctor.com/
I haven't looked at their site in several years, but back then they had a fair amount of useful info on their site that was not necessarily specific to their products.
A patch is a patch... "caulking is not trim" *
The best solution is to replace the rotted trim with new exterior grade lumber. Cypress, Ipe, or Redwood,however if the budget does not allow this type of restoration, I have had excellent result with West Systems, Abatron and Bondo for small exterior patches. For larger patches you do not need a "consolidant" which is a product that Abatron sell for rotted wood. An exterior patch WILL require an epoxy, therefore West Systems is most economical to use. To "concoct" a consolidant, to neutralize rotted wood, cut a West systems epoxy mix with Acetone to make it "brushable to the rotted wood". Try to match the species of wood for the repair for lager repairs to bond with existing patch and "uncut epoxy". Sand/Prime Finish.