We have a couple that wants to put us on a retainer to assure us everyone involved that we are doing their job/house about mid summer. this retainer is their idea.
We don’t have final blueprints or specs yet, only ball park numbers. But drawings are good enough now to be real close on price. Specs are things like, what kind of tiles, carpets, colors, so <!—-><!—-> <!—->Ball <!—-> <!—->Park <!—-><!—-> was put together using upper end numbers.( from experience) and we spelled it all out in the ball park numbers.<!—-> <!—->
Final blueprints wont be ready for 2-3 weeks, Probabally about a half days worh of work left, just the detail stuff like brace panels, cross sections, junk for permits.<!—->
Owners, they are about to leave town for a month.( he just retired, she did last year)<!—->
However, it is not ready to go to contract yet, but they also know, if we don’t sign soon, I will with someone else and tie up the summer <!—->
SOOOOOO <!—->
Does anyone have a contractor retainer idea or a clause or idea that I can type up????<!—->
To be honest I don’t want to pay an attorney 500 bucks, and if for some reason it fell apart anyway later, I am blessed to have plenty of work. This is more for their assurance then mine<!—->
Thank you <!—->
Replies
Jeez, I would be happy to tell you how to prepare a letter, but that would mean taking $500 out of some lawyers pocket. He's got a family to feed too.
Hit the used crap place ...
all they had was used crap.
shame ... before moving to this bigger/better place ... they always had a nice mix of bottom end "surplus" ... and some nicer old restoration materials ...
since the move ... they seem to focus more on "recycling and green" than true restoration. Lotsa crap from the 60's and 70's that should have seen the inside of a dumpster. Almost no good, old stuff.
So .... no old toilet parts and pieces.
And no matching trim for me. Again ... used to have stacks and stacks of old trims ...
now ... U can get a good deal on a truck load of Fypon?
still have a great selection of doors ... maybe I just used up my all my luck when I found 2 doors hinged correctly and pretty much the right size that matched the existing perfectly for this ladies old house. Have to enclose a closet and make a set of french's ... I found one of each ... left hand and rt.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
That's a shame that the place went down the tubes. It's getting almost impossible to find the little parts that are needed to keep the old stuff running. I've resorted to ebay for most of it, as all the places around me have gone upscale. And I tell everybody that when they pull stuff out of an old house, give it to me and save the dumping fees. I really do appreciate your looking.
As for the issue of the scheduling fee, it's absolutely legal and proper. You're agreeing to be available at a given time to perform work, scope and fee to be agreed upon at a later date. But you are giving something up, your availability and thus your ability to take another job for the time period, in return for a fee.
Scott
Aye mon,
How long do you expect to take to find a replacement job for their slot?
Subtract 2/3 of that time from the start date and put a time restraint in the retainer contract.
Refund most (90%) if they cancel 4/3 of the time before and prorate (30-60%) for cancelations between 4/3 and 2/3 dates. Might need to be more "Equitable under law" (see lawyer) by basing refund on actual work found for their slot.
I ain't a lawyer. I ain't a lawyer. I ain't a lawyer. I ain't a lawyer. I ain't a lawyer.
Isagamble, but everybody can win and everybody can lose, so it's fair, IMSO.
SamT
>>>"I ain't a lawyer. I ain't a lawyer. I ain't a lawyer. I ain't a lawyer. I ain't a lawyer."Yes, but do you have a family to feed?
Jon Blakemore
so since you ain't a lawyer, who's he gonna sue when he listens to you and gets slaughtered for the bad advice?
the problem with everybody here (it's not just you, Sam, but people pretending to have a clue about this for years) giving out advice as to what they think should be the law, or how people should deal with legal situations, is that 99% is just plain wrong. This isn't a guessing game, nor does it have to make sense to anyone here. So, if somebody wants legal advice, they should find a decent lawyer and pay them. And if somebody wants kitchen cabs, they should find a decent cabinet maker and pay them.
don't make me repeat myself.
SHG
actually ... the bigger problem around here is people pretending they have any knowledge about construction ... but I see your very similar point.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
lol...
but this is bt...
no lt...
on the lawyer websites....
we have threads....
about which end of a hammer to hold...
which is funny....
since nobody uses a hammer...
anymore...
anyway.....
But I won't give tell them...
I tell them to hire a carp....
btw ... I'm home for a late lunch ...
off to across town ...
gonna hit the Construction Junction before I circle around and pick up the boy.
I'll keep U in mind while I'm looking at old plumbing ...
that wasn't exactly a compliment, was it!
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
I'll keep U in mind while I'm looking at old plumbing ...
yeah. that didn't sound right. but I know what you meant. and don't think you're the first to tell me that. pretty sad, actually.
Thanks.
Sorry about the side track... couldn't find yur old thread....
just came back from Rampart....
Those boys are pround.. they sell a complete total rebuild kit in brass and porcelin for old toilets that is 62$ each...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
ouch. Don't sweat it. I've got it covered. Thanks for checking.
Scott
I agree that solid legal counsel is very important. I strive to be legal in everything I do and operate in such a way that I could effectively use the court system to pursue those that need it.On the other hand, I think that legal resolution should be your last ditch effort. Typically the cost of bringing a law suit is expensive even if you win. I don't have any legal basis for my opinion, but my experience is when you go to court you've already lost considerably.Isa would be well off to have a clear and concise summary of the relationship between customer and contractor. If the channels of communication are clear and recorded on paper, the chances of legal action being necessary are slim.I believe Sam provided sound advice (on a non-legal plane) that will help Isa. Even still Sam pointed out in two different places that he is not offering legal advice.
Jon Blakemore
actually, that's not at all what Isa needs in this circumstances. taking retainers for future work is a special situation. but sam wouldn't know that. why should he.
so you can either guess at it, and do what you think is a good idea.
or you can do it right and save yourself from losing the money, or having a major problem, when the time comes, losing a customer, getting your name slandered all over town, and ending up in a lawsuit.
the idea isn't to win a lawsuit. the idea is to avoid them. it's amazing how little needs to be done sometimes to be the good guy in your customers' eyes, as opposed to a crook.
of course, it doesn't really matter, because legal problems never happen to good people. right?
>>>"the idea isn't to win a lawsuit. the idea is to avoid them."My point exactly.>>>"of course, it doesn't really matter, because legal problems never happen to good people. right?"I never stated and didn't intend to infer that.So what should Isa do that will keep him from losing money and come out smelling like a rose?
Jon Blakemore
So what should Isa do that will keep him from losing money and come out smelling like a rose?
find himself a good lawyer who needs new kitchen cabs
"the idea isn't to win a lawsuit. the idea is to avoid them."That's my thought, but it seems like isa's concern is to define things. Maybe you could shed some light on the legal meranings - generally - of retainage.it sounds to me like what Isa is talking about is a deposit for commitment or escrow to a future contract. I may not entirely understand the concept of retainage fees, but I take deposits all the time.I did bill one customer for retainer by mutual agreement. He was the sort who wanted topnotch service NOW. He didn't generally abuse the priveledge, but we both knew that he could disrupt my scedule and that it cost me to serve him sometimes.
So I billed him three thousand bucks a year just to keep him at the top of my list. Similar to some premier medical service plans at many health care organizations now that charge for 'priviledges' We called it a retainer fee.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Lawyers use a few different types of retainers. One is a general retainer, where the fee is for availability over a period of time. One is a retainer for representation on a specific matter. The same concepts are applicable to everyone, thought lawyers in some states operate under a different set of rules that requires written retainers.
When agreeing to do something out of the ordinary, it is always advisable to get it in writing so that there's no disagreement later as to what was agreed. You can not only contract to perform specific work, but to be available generally or at a particular time. A contract requires consideration on both sides. That means that both sides have to give something. If nothing is given in exchange for money, then there is a failure of consideration and no contract. If the parties didn't understand one another, then the contract is void for mutual mistake. The real problem, as you've come to learn, is that contracting to do something in the future is often a problem because you don't know what you will be doing when called upon to perform.
SHG
So you are saying it is not a good idea to do some homework BEFORE going to see an attorney? After (especially if the advice given makes as much sense as 16x20 glue-lam joists, 16" on center, on a 10' span)?
I write my own agreements... then have my lawyer review them. Sometimes I am right on... sometimes I am in left field. On the whole... I am more right than wrong. Just a few tweaks. When I am off base... my attorney strives to educate me about the flawed premises. Keyword being "educate".
Taking advice blindly from a lawyer is like blindly buying a used car. There are good ones.. there are lemons. I have had experience with more lemons than I care to remember (or perhaps I should say that I have had more unfortunate experiences with advice taken from attorneys at face value... without questioning the source of their advice).
There are a lot of resources out there... one of them is networking with industry professionals. Getting advice from an industry professional is MUCH preferable to going into a lawyer's office blind.
I agree that the purpose of a good corprosate attorney is to avoid a lawsuit. But even the best of the best is fallible. "Buyer beware" is just as applicable in the legal trade as it is in the construction trade.... and personal education on any given topic is king when attempting to avoid issues.
I could bore you with 80K in awful advice given by the "best" attorney in his field. But I will keep my blood pressure low tonight.
Edited 3/31/2005 7:57 pm ET by Rich from Columbus
Rich, I was thinking the same thing.
If a guy asks about a retainer, I don't know anything about "retainers" if retainers is used as a legal term. If I'm interpreting the word retainer to me a deposit, then maybe I'd have a suggestion about how to structure the offer. I think we all have to understand that the word retainer has more than one meaning.
If you run to the lawyer to figure out every little offer you want to make, I doubt that you'll ever have time to acutually find something to offer about. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Blue, the question was about getting legal advice. If you have to ask, then ask someone who can give it to you. It makes as much sense as my asking a lawyer board how to cut rafters. Or to put it another way, I have a pretty good idea where kidneys are located, but I still wouldn't try to remove one. Well, maybe on some people, but definitely not on someone I liked. I might be able to beat the Doc out of $5000, but I still wouldn't do it.
Making a simple contract doesn't normally require asking for legal advice, so there's no reason to run to a lawyer every time you do something. But when you do something out of the ordinary, and want it to be legal, then that's where you go for an answer. Nothing more or less.
SHG
I'm not saying that it is not a good idea to consult with an attorney. I AM saying that it is a good idea to get as much education about a given topic as you can BEFORE seeing that attorney.
Keeps the conversation on track... the lawyer only needs to complete the education... as opposed to starting from scratch.
I have learned the hard way (real hard way) to question the advice given to me by anyone... including an attorney.... or a doctor... or an accountant. A good attorney (or other professional) should welcome questions. And should strive to assure that the client understands the basis for that advice. Now, I am not talking the intimate details of why "therefore", and not "whereto"... but the broader guiding principal or law/decision that guides the advice.
Conversely, the nightmare of my experience was predicated by my questions being answered by the venerable "because". NEVER EVER EVER EVER again! This guy was the best of the best (by many accounts) ... and he churned fees so much that he coulda made butter. He WAS good... good at maximizing his fee income.
To be fair, I have dealt with another attorney that was more than fair. He went above and beyond... and I always rewarded him accordingly. The only bad advice he gave me was to go to the aforementioned schmuck.
My current attorney (the good one I dealt with before is not as familiar with construction law as I would like... and he concurs)... has an understanding with me. If I don't understand something... I ask. If I ask... it's because I want to know. If I write up something that is garbage.. he needs to tell me why. If I write up something that is good... he tells me why it was good. And last but not least... he doesn't get all uptight when I ask for a consult with another attorney to verify something that doesn't make sense to me. It's business... not personal.
Rich, it's obvious that you've been around the block with attorneys. I have too. I understand exactly what you are saying. There's a couple out there still wearing the shirt that they got off my back.
Before I walk into the attorneys office, I'm going to have a fairly good idea of what I want to accomplish. If I have to ask the guys in here as a starting point, that's what I'd do. I WOULD NOT call the attorney up as the starting point. When I call that particular professional, I'm first interviewing them as to their specialty and knowledge of my particular request.
One other thing about attorneys. I love it when you call them up for your "free consultation" and they spend the entire time qualifying you about your wallet.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Now Blue ...
weren't U just selling some prepaid legal services?
what's with the avoidance of lawyers all of a sudden?
I thought that's what that prepaid stuff was all about ...
pay up front ... then run to them every time ya need to?
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Actually Jeff, I'm still involved with the prepaid attorney product and am very well satisfied with their services and will never let my program lapse, unless they drastically change their program. I'm not going to go into the specifics, but it has been one of the best moves that I've ever made. There's a variety of reasons why it's been especially helpful for me. If you want to discuss specifics, I'll be glad to talk privately about it.
586 292 7974 or email me.
I don't want to be accused of spamming.
blue
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Rich,
This has been argued about 100 times over the years here. It's just not worth rehashing. Believe whatever makes you happy. It's really not worth my time to try to convince you otherwise.
SHG
Too bad, Sam. Pride doesn't suit you well. Best to keep it to yourself unless you want everybody to know for certain.
sam... uh..
<<<Lawyers and doctors. Neither have been around more than a few generations in human history, yet both now claim to be privy to such esoteric and vital secret information that anyone who is not in their clubs, yet tries to help a friend out is guilty of a criminal act>>>>
lawyers have been around since at least Hammurabi.. probably since adam & eve..
don't you think they consulted someone after they got evicted ? probably the same guy who gave eve the apple advice in the first place
now isa....
what you need is a contract to enter into a contract
or a letter of intent....
so you can get either one by the usual means.. let us write one for you.... or let your lawyer write one for you..
BTW:
i got a dentist
a doctor... bookeeper.... cpa...two insurance agents.. and a lawyer..
lemme give you a little hint..
go to the best lawyer in town.. have him do some legal work for you, every now and then..
if someone trys to sue you, it may mean that they have to hire someone else..
also.. i get some great referrals from my lawyer.. they like recommending people they trust
Edited 3/31/2005 5:07 pm ET by Mike Smith
Mike ... glad ya piped in ...
I was gonna ask SHG a question based on U ...
probably better to ask U ... then have him address ... that way .. I ain't confusing none of them facts ... anyways ...
I know ... 'cause U told me to ... you would ask for a schedule-hold deposit.
Kinda the same deal in the original post here ... so ...
How ould U deal with that? How would U word it?
I think I just wrote on that bid ... a nonrefundable scheduling deposit of 10% is required due upon signing of contract.
Don't know if that's legal ... don't actually care! They want me to commit to a job 6 months down the road ... I want some "salt" money. Dad always said ... Salt the job!
So how would ya lay it out? Let's see if we're even close to legal.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Edited 3/31/2005 7:46 pm ET by Jeff J. Buck