Probably a dumb question from a HO who knows just enough to be dangerous…
I want to run a 1/2″ copper water line through about three studs in the middle of a wall, then turn down 90 degrees through the floor and into the basement. The part that I’m stuck on is how to thread the pipe through the studs. I can drill the holes, but how do you get the pipe through them?
Like I said, probably a dumb question, but someone here always seems to have a good answer, or a good smart @ss comment, or both. Either is welcome.
Thanks, Bart
Replies
use a wire fish tape (electricians use these for the same purpose), attach the pipe to the end of the tape and pull it back thru.
or a drill bit with a hole on the end of it (attach a string after drilling), pull it back and then use the string to pull the pipe thru those holes
or remove the drywall
hope this helps,
Norm
You could drill 3/4" holes for some clearance, then use soft copper carefully bent to get through the studs, sweat coupling back to rigid through the floor.
Sounds like you have clear access to the suds...drywall on or off?
Edited 2/20/2004 12:13:26 PM ET by johnnyd
The drywall will be off when I do this, I am stripping the wall down to bare studs. I'm not familiar with this soft copper you're talking about, is that something I could get at a big box or do I have to go to a plumbing supply shop?
Thanks
Yes, my big box (Menards) carries it in 10, 25, and 50 foot rolls, 3/8" 1/2", and 3/4". Used for propane lines and water lines. HD and Lowes too, I suppose.
You will have to buy a roll of soft copper and you only need to go four feet. In the worst possible case you cut three short pieces and use a coupling between each of the studs. It's very likely you can just flex a piece of regular 1/2" and get it in there. The key is the larger holes which then fill with bushings.
I have done this, instead of drilling holes just notch the studs instead.
Does it have to be copper? PEX is a lot easier to snake through walls, even for short runs.
That thought occured to me after I posted, but I would be concerned that buying all of the required tools would break the budget. What would be the minimum toolkit I would need to make connections? How hard is it to tie PEX into existing copper? How hard is it to connect a toilet shut off to PEX?
The wheels are turning...
I can't cough up a brand name, but I'm pretty sure I've seen PEX connecter that you can tighten with a screwdriver. If there aren't PEX to sweat adapters (I'd be deeply surprised if there aren't), there are certainly PEX to thread adapters that you can screw into thread to sweat adapters.
you guys are all over PEX but there are places it can not be used. Code will not allow. I can just only now use PVC for Drain Waste vent, and that just happenend a few years ago. PEX is not even on the map for supply. As an example, on electric Romex is not allowed. Everything must be in pipe or Greenfield. I know you like the PEX but please realize that it can't be used everywhere and nor is the answer for everything. Copper is still easy to use and connect with available tools and frankly it works pretty well. Easy to find connectors, easy to connect, and no special tools. If you can use PEX every day that is a different story, but for a short run in a rehab PEX is out of the question when copper can be done with minimal effort.
People recommend products here every day that aren't (yet) code compliant in one place or another. PEX is code compliant in lots of places, and has a number of advantages over copper. (Some disadvantages, too, I'm not trying to pretend it's perfect.) I don't think it's bad advice to recommend or suggest a useful and widely used product just because you can't use it where you work. If PEX is not an option where Bart lives, either because of code or availability, then he can easily shift back to the advice other posters offered about copper.
I'll also have to disagree with you on the question of ease of use. I have done some copper plumbing, and some flexible plastic pipe plumbing. (Not PEX, this was a long time ago.) My experience with copper doesn't match yours. I can make watertight joints, but I would not describe copper as "easy to use" or something "that can be done with minimal effort." I found flexible tubing a lot easier, just cut it square, get it all the way on the connector, and get the clamp or crimp tight. I suspect that I'm not the only homeowner who knows just enough to be dangerous (Bart's description, not mine) who doesn't do a lot of soldering and who finds plastic easier than copper to work with.
I have to agree with you. Soft copper or PEX is as good an option as any. PEX tools can be rented for a few hours, days, or weeks, so no purchase is needed. Soft copper is easy to thread through the proper size holes with a little care, and any joints can be soldiered together outside of the wall. Sweating fitting inside of a wall is a little risky, unless the HO also has small fire blankets to shield the flammable material from the torch.
Remember when buying soft copper, that you are buying tubing. Tubing is sized by O.D., piping is sold by I.D. Make sure the outside diameter of the tubing matches the outside diameter of the pipe or purchase reducing fitting to make the transitions.
Notching and nail plates are another good option for 1/2" copper. He is only taking a 5/8" notch out of a 3 1/2" stud, no big structural threat. A large 1 3/8" hole in the center of a 2x4 stud in a load bearing wall would be out of bounds. Better to put in jacks and header off the pipe run area, than weaken the wall, even for just 3 stud bays.
Dave
"Notching and nail plates are another good option for 1/2" copper. He is only taking a 5/8" notch out of a 3 1/2" stud, no big structural threat. A large 1 3/8" hole in the center of a 2x4 stud in a load bearing wall would be out of bounds. Better to put in jacks and header off the pipe run area, than weaken the wall, even for just 3 stud bays."
Dave,
There's a reason for everything. Code max for boring in load-bearing studs is 1-3/8", at least here where I build. Look at it another way, 1-3/8" is 39.2% of 3-1/2", and 40% is the max bore in a bearing stud (60% if non bearing). That's why manufacturers make those pipe bushings for 1-3/8" holes.
Notching a pipe into the edge of a stud.... yeah, you can do that and it will be noisy when the water's running, unless you somehow isolate the pipe from the wood (with what, a bunch of caulk?), and those nail plates will cause a bulge in the wall unless you mortise them in.
Yikes - 1 3/8" maximum in a 2x4 stud wall. I am planning to drill for 1 1/2 ABS vent pipes later this week. This is not code? *(&^
40% bore in a bearing stud and 60% bore in a non-bearing stud. Which is yours?
Bearing :(
I will have to check the codes to find the smallest vent pipe possible for a bath lav. Hopefully I have some latitude here.
According to code it looks like I can use with 1 1/4" for my vents - which will put me within the 40% limit!
Thank you David and BT.
Yeah, you could sneak a piece of 1-1/4" copper into a 1-3/8" hole, I think. Maybe PVC too.
Dean, you can go up to 60% (just over 2" in a nominal 2x4) if you double the stud and don't drill in successive studs. Or you can use an approved stud shoe. Simpson makes one. This is from IRC 2000 R602.6 Notching and Boring.
As always, your local codes may vary.
Thank you for the code reference and Simpson idea. Learning Learning Learning...
A lot of good information here, thanks. I thought about cutting and splicing between each stud, but like someone else said I would like to minimize how much in-wall soldering I have to do. I'd hate to burn down my house, it's where I keep all my stuff. On the other few joints I've had to solder up to this point, I've been using several pieces of aluminum flashing stacked up to protect whatever is behind. I know this isn't the best way to do it, what is the recommended product for doing that and where can I get it? I don't have the equipment to pressure test, so what's the best way to verify that my connections are good? Everything else I've done so far has been in the basement, so I've just turned the water back on and watched very carefully for any drips. If any turn up in the coming weeks or months, it's still just dripping onto the concrete floor. Obviously I need a better way now that I'm working in a wall.
As for the wall itself, I won't notch it because I can't say for sure, but I really doubt it is load bearing. The house is your garden variety long and narrow ranch with a central beam supported by columns in the basement running down the middle in the long direction. The wall in question is perpendicular to that beam, parallel to the floor joists. But like I say, I can't swear 100% that it isn't load bearing, so I'll avoid notching.
Our new baby has kept me from tackling this little job again this weekend, so I have another week to keep thinking about it.
Your flashing will work to keep the flame off of the back of the dw on the other side of the wall. As an added precaution you might slide a piece of wet card board in behind the flashing. Make your joint close to center, between the studs, and you won't have to worry about setting them on fire. Keep a fire extinguisher near by or a bucket of water, spray bottle, etc. It is not that risky if you are carefull.
For a small run like you are doing, I woudn't bother isolating and pressure and testing with air and soap. Hook that puppy up, have DW watch it and turn on the water. If she yells about the free shower she is gettin, turn it off, drain and fix leaks. If not, calmly walk back and check each joint with a dry paper towel. No run, drips or error, wait 30 minutes and close the wall up. Tell DW it was a piece of cake and you saved a bundle not using a plumber.
Accept accolades with humility :-)
Dave
BTW congrats on the new baby.
I buy fire blanket at my HVAC supply house. I also have some old stuff that is of unknown origin and substance (insert the A word) that I use a lot. Cost of the new stuff is about $5.50/sf, so I don't cut it up to fit in small places.
Edited 2/22/2004 12:17:53 PM ET by DAVERICHESON
Thanks for the tip on ther wet cardboard, I'll definitely do that. As for the leak testing, SWMBO is already a pro at the "yell if you see water" game. Needless to say, she's had to yell a few times.
I have learned one thing doing this little project, soldering in shut off valves is no fun. I guess it's because of the mass of the casting, but I had to try many times to get solder to flow. Are there any disadvantages (besides the price) to using 1/4 turn ball valves with compression fittings rather than solder joints? Sure would save me a lot of cussing in the future.
Thanks again!
What are you using for a torch? If not MAPP gas, try that.
No, I haven't tried MAPP. I was worried enough about burning the house down with the regular stuff. If I understand, the advantage to MAPP is that it burns hotter, right? If I get a little better with my torch control (you know, quit accidentally pointing it at my plastic waste stack while concentrating on what I'm doing with the other hand, that kind of thing) maybe I'll give MAPP a try.
Thanks
Just like a dull tool is more dangerous than a sharp tool, a hotter flame, within reason, is safer than a cooler flame. The joint heats up much faster, the contortions you have to put your body into to get torch and solder on the joint at the same time are much easier to take...so you don't tire and end up with the flame pointed in the wrong direction...AND, with a hotter flame, the joint will heat up to the right temp BEFORE the adjoining flammables reach flame point. At least you'll have a better chance at that.
Try MAPP with some spare fittings and pipe.
thanks for the chuckle on the torch pointed at the plastic waste pipe - reminds me of times checking garbage disposal forgetting to connect p trap etc. still laughing
compression fittings good way to go for shut offs
your aluminum shield sounds good - I'd glue it to some sheetrock / spray misters for plants good thing to have around
oh and the checking for leaks - depending on your water pressure, how many stories etc., can take a long time for pressure to build back up - better to close up wall day after
and you guys what is with some of that fire blanket material? the fumes off that stuff may just do more harm than if you left that torch pointed at your leg
You might think about upgrading to a QuickFire torch head. It has a trigger and auto igniter. Release the trigger, flame goes out. Squeez the trigger, flame on. You don't need to rotate the open flame away from the work and into something you don't want to catch on fire.
Full flow ball valves are good for shut offs IMO. They are not appropriate as stop valves in exposed locations where design and decor are an issue. Ball valves should not be used as throttling valves. They get real noisey when used that way.
Dave
Design and decor? You can tell you've never seen my house! But I see your point, I'm just using these in the basement so that I can isolate the bathroom I am getting ready to demo. I'm sure it isn't common practice in new construction because of the extra expense, but it sure would be nice if each plumbed room could be shut off completely without affecting other fixtures. That's my eventual goal in my house. Of course, since the plumbing runs weren't made with that in mind, I'm going to end up with a zillion shutoff valves to make it happen.
Good tip on the QuickFire, I will definitely pick one up. Luckily my drain stack was only singed, but the next time I may not be so lucky.
Glad I could give you a laugh. I had that real sinking feeling when I started smelling hot plastic, thank goodness no real harm done.
So it's looking like MAPP gas, trigger fired torch head, spray bottle, fire extinguisher, aluminum flashing, wet cardboard, possibly some drywall, and a little luck. It may not be pretty, but with help from you guys it should at least be functional.
Keep your fingers crossed, maybe my little critter will have a good weekend and I can get this project started.
Bart,
If you want to look like a real plumber, go ahead and scorch the hell out of the framing. Seriously, with a small pencil-tip flame and careful aim you can heat a joint that's very close to framing and not blacken the wood. Lots of guys pick up scraps of fiber cement siding as shields. MAPP gas and trigger torch is a good idea as others have suggested, maybe about $40 at the hardware store.
Can you explain what you mean by a "small pencil tip flame"? I played with adjusting the gas flow when I was doing what I did before, but the flame was always pretty sizeable. Are there other torch heads that produce smaller flames?
And I thought if I wanted to look like a real plumber I would have to cut away the top half of my 2x10 floor joists at midspan to run a drain line. Just kidding guys, I have a lot of respect for all of the trades. It's like anything else, try plowing for a day or two and see how much higher your regard for farmers becomes. This plumbing stuff is hard!
If you want to look like a real plumber......
Wear a real short dirty tee shirt, slide the levis down low on the hips, bend over or squat as needed to get maximum exposure of ....THE BUTT CRACK!
Now you look like a real plumber :-)
Dave
pencil tip flame... well, it's the fairly small and very hot blue flame that comes out of my Bernzomatic TS 4000 (?) torch. It hits the joint and doesn't spread much at all. Maybe 10 seconds to sweat a 1/2" elbow, maybe a total of 30 seconds to sweat a 3/4" CxC ball valve. Propane takes twice as long and the waiting makes you sloppier with where the flame goes.
You have a small fire extinguisher with you, right? Required for any sweat kit.
[QUOTE]
No, I haven't tried MAPP. I was worried enough about burning the house down with the regular stuff. If I understand, the advantage to MAPP is that it burns hotter, right? If I get a little better with my torch control (you know, quit accidentally pointing it at my plastic waste stack while concentrating on what I'm doing with the other hand, that kind of thing) maybe I'll give MAPP a try.
Get yourself a MAPP torch with a trigger valve, so the flame goes to "pilot" when not in use, or, better, one with electronic ignition so that the flame goes out entirely when you aren't using it. You still need to beware of the hot end of the thing, but it's much less likely to set the curtains afire while you're occupied elsewhere.
I agree that for many installs that it would be easier to use. But for this particular application it would seem easier just to do it in copper since it seems to be a short run. The cost of tools etc would be significant for this install.
My comments were really only directed for this type of application.
Are we talking about a closed wall? I assume not if you can drill the holes. Use a 1-3/8" self-feed drill bit and then flex the copper enough to get it into place. Then install plastic bushings into the holes to stabilize the pipe. If you already drilled smaller holes and have been trying to fight the pipe into place, just drill larger. All of the bushings I have seen for 1/2 and 3/4 require a 1-3/8" hole.
The wall will be stripped to the studs. I guess in my mind I was picturing drilling a normal sized holes and trying to figure out how to maneuver the pipe between the adjacent studs. So you're saying that if I drill the holes oversize, I can angle the pipe through, right? That's just crazy enough to work (which is to say, I should have thought of that in the first place).
Bart,
You could just notch the studs and put a nailer plate over the notch. If you want to be picky you could drill 3 short 2x4's, run the pipe thru the holes and insert the assembly with the 2x4's next to your notched studs. As my plumber says "There's plenty wood in the rest of the house."
KK
Do not notch the studs they might be holding up the heavy section! I would use three or 4 pieces and sweat the joints together, pressure test before closing up the wall and add nail plates.
in the time it takes to do a post,you can cut it in 3 pcs,feed it in the wall and use couplers to and your done!
I agree with David. Just make the holes large enough to squeeze your regular tubing in there. This is a fairly short run and slightly over-sized holes with a little bending of the pipe should do the trick. No need to mess around with other materials.
Al Mollitor, Sharon MA
I don't think the Quickfire is rated for MAPP gas. You need a higher grade of trigger start torch: Bernz-o-matic TS4000 or TS7000. TS4 & TS7 look identical, except TS7 has a flame adjust. I've never used a TS7, but the TS4 is worth every penny.
I will use a spray bottle to wet down vulnerable wood beforehand. I might also use metal ductwork pieces or even heavy Bar-b-q tinfoil, but mostly I use a plumber's cloth rated for torches, available at big box stores. I soak it in water to prolong it's lifespan. I've seen cheap (as in nearly disposable) fire-rated cloth that must not be soaked otherwise it'll lose it's fire retardant chemical.
I'm not a plumber, but my experience with copper is that joint failure is due to insufficient cleaning. I prefer a wire brush mounted in a cordless drill.
Make sure you wipe your joints with a wet cloth after soldering. Keep a cloth handy in a bucket of water. You have to wipe off any leftover flux or else it'll corrode the copper.
Regards,
Tim Ruttan
Going from the $19 brass propane kit to a MAPP trubo trigger start tourch is like going from a dull, rusted handsaw to a new skill saw with a good carbie blade.
Just been down that route and it is a hugh difference.
Both in the convience of the trigger start (just set it down and down't worry about the flane and pick it up and squeze the trigger when you want flame) and the extra performace.
I did a 3/4" ball valve and two 1/2 ones without frying them. If I had used my old tourch I would have been there an hour on each one and just had a melted valve when I was done.
I got the TS4000 and returned it for the TS7000. They are identical except that the 7000 has the adjustment valve.
There is not a huge range of adjustment, but there is some. I opened it up full for the valves and cranked it down for the 1/2" fittings.
That is not a really a "pencil flame". Bernz does list a pencil flame tip as an option, but I have not found one it.
I don't know for sure, not having seen this one, but my guess is that the pencil flame is about 1/3 the size of the regular and way too small for plumbing work.
I want to braze some thin brass material, about 1/4 - 1/2 wide angles to make some frames for some light fixtures and the pencil tip would be good for that.
Quickfire is a brand name, like Bernz-O-Matic, they make a number of different versions. Some of them are for MAP
Edited 2/24/2004 11:36:24 AM ET by Bill Hartmann
Older Quickfires had an extra orfice for MAPP gas with the head. Newer models are rated for propane and MAPP gas.
Dave
For what its worth, I use a small,portable oxy/acetlene torch with a real small tip, it puts lots of heat in a very small area, keeps me from trashing the shut off valves.
Bud
Thought I would say thanks and let you know how it turned out. When I got the wall opened up, I found that it was double thickness (7", two 2x4's side by side) to make room for the main vent stack. Because of that, and the fact that I was pretty sure it wasn't load bearing anyway, I was comfortable notching out for my pipe. That meant no connections between bays, but even better it meant that I could dry fit everything, then carry it downstairs and solder it on the cement basement floor. Slip it all back in place, make the main connection in the basement, and done.
I did buy a trigger action torch, and I love it. I have no idea how you pros can hold the torch in one hand, the solder in the other, and still manage to grab a wet rag fast enough to wipe the joints and make them look neat. But so far, no leaks. I'll attach a couple of pictures just for giggles.
Anyway, just wanted to say thanks! Now I can get on with gutting everything else!