I’m planning a very simple structure, and want to use a load bearing ridge beam (to avoid collar ties, etc…). The size of beam my lumber yard recommended seems rather large to me. I’d like to get a second opinion. Are there any on line tools a non-professional could use to do this calculation?
It is a simple gable end structure. 14′ long, 8′ wide, with an 8:12 roof, and I’m in Minnesota, so snow load is a definite consideration.
Thanks.
Replies
Let me get this right.....
You said you're a "non-pro", right? Your words not mine.
You went to the lumberyard to have a "pro" size your beam.
Now you want to second guess him cuz "dat don't sound right"?
I don't get it. What did the lumberyard come up with? You thinking they're trying to get rich by jacking you on a 14' long beam?
I'm not worried about cost, I'm worried about size, and how it will look. As well as how difficult it might be to install the beam (I'll be building this on my own). I'd also like to learn how to do this kind of thing myself, because it interests me.
I'm "second guessing" the pro because he didn't do it himself, he went in the back room to get Joe to do it, before Joe ran off to lunch. Hurried third party exchanges like that are prone to mistakes, or at least mis-communications.
The "pro" came up with the following options:
- one 11.5" LVL
- two 9.5" LVL's
-three 7.5" LVL's
- one 6 x 12 timber
Would anyone care to answer my original question?
Thanks
U ain't gonna do ant better'n'that. I'd have rough guessed a 14'deep LVL.They did you good offering several options there. They do this all day long so a hurried shush-slush of information was fine. There was nothing hard about it.There are online calculators for joist or rafter spans, but beam loading is far more complicated than you might imagine, with lots of potential liabiilities, so you don't get that for free
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A single 1-3/4 x 11-1/2 LVL? That sounds a little light.
My guess would be that a 4x12 DF#1 would work, and if I was building that shed in my backyard with no one watching, that's what I'd use, since I can go pick one up right now. A 6x12 seems like overkill, but when I look outside right now there's no snow.
Aw - you've got lite snow up there anyways...:)
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I wonder if there is any significance to the "pig"?
There is tremendous significance to the pig. He is one of the finer framers around, a man with great integrity who not only knows what he is talking about, but who regularly shares good advice based on his experience.
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Great, glad he is a good framer. I suppose it comes with an additude, naturally. Like some artists.
Well, I had the same attitude rise up in me when I read the post. Brian got to write it up first. Maybe he had a worse day than I had...I might be wrong in this case, I don't know but there is a reason for it.Want to know where it comes from?
No, you probably don't, but I'll say anyhow.In a 35 year long career in the trades, dealing with all sorts of folks, I have had my instincts refined by experience. And most of the times when a potential client starts early on to questioniong my judgement, it is a sign of problems on the horizon. It means it is time to say see ya later. Then the contractor who does get that customer usually finds out later that they are the most nit-picking, slow paying, fussbudgetletmehelpgetinthewaysecondguessingshortcutters you can find.Like I said, this might not apply to the OP here. He might be just wise enough to folow up on his instincts, but he is looking for a smaller beam when the general consensus is that he is more likely to be neediong a larger one, so my instinct still says that he is looking for what he wants instead of learning to design with what he needs.
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Great post Piffin. And sure I am interested; however, you must admit that the original question was very basic and so obviously innocent, unless you are a very very high-strung individual looking to cut someone a new one. BIngo!
I completely understand your comments about potential clients. I met people in dozens of different situations and am pretty good at sizing them up in thirty seconds. Ususally correctly, not always. Some people are great people with zero people skills. But, in either case you don't rip their head off for one question. Not very professional.
As for the original post. You say you believe he was looking for a SMALLER beam. I did not read that into the post at all. To me it seemed that he wanted to know the right answer, larger or smaller?
BAB-
It seems to me like these guys have all gotten off on a tangent and noone is bringing up how much deflection you'll get fully loaded. I would ask what the deflection is. I'll specify that I want minimum deflection- not what the code says is okay because I don't want to find the ceiling cracking down the road. Those LVL ridge poles can be wrapped with trim and add alot of detail to the room, so I'm not worried about stepping up the hieght of them. It's not like headroom is an issue with a ridge pole.
Yes, my innocent question seems to have stirred up some people's private issues. Maybe decaf is the solution there? Back to the original issue...
You raise a valid point about the deflection. But the structure is just a screened porch, with a plywood beadboard ceiling, so I have no worries about cracking sheetrock joints etc...
However there isn't going to be any too much head room in the structure. Hemmed in on the high end by the need to mate its roof to an existing roof, and hemmed in on the low end by needing to build up deck pallets to form a floor (on top of another existing roof). That is why I wanted a second opinion on the beam size. I'm 6'4" and don't want to be thinking "my that's a massive beam just above my head" every time I walk into the thing. I had been worrying that the beam would be even lower, because I was picturing the rafters resting on top of it (as was done on a similar feature elsewhere on the house, where head room isn't an issue), but then I realized I can probably hang the rafters off the side of the ridge beam. That is OK on a load bearing ridge, right?
While I can see that in some cases a beam calculation has the potential to get much more complicated than some other structural members, I don't think it is possible to have a simpler case than mine. Each wall carries 1/4 of the load. The ridge carries the rest. It is a simple span supported on either end. There are no intersecting or oddly shaped roof sections that mate with it, etc... The TrusJoist link was helpful. Thanks. That was just the kind of thing I was looking for.
Since you can see how simple it is relative to other beam designs, why in the world would you assume they were wrong about it at the yard, or that you are capable of doing better with minimal knowledge of how to figure it.I had never considered the beam underslung. a ridge beam is normally flushed up in unless there is adesign reason for wanting it to project into the living space, say for appearance it something like a timberframe or log home.
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I assumed a mistake could have been made because...
- I have an almost identical structure on the front of the house (but with only a 5' length). It uses a 4x4 for the ridge. The increase in beam size for going from 5' to 14' length seemed excessive to me, and worth double checking.
- I told the guy "fourteen feet", he could easilly have thought I said "forty" feet. He could easilly have mistyped the value when entering it in his computer. He's human. Humans can make mistakes. Buying and installing a wrong sized ridge beam would be a big mistake for me to have to correct.
- Also, as I've already said, the process of determining beam sizes intrigues me. I wanted to find out if I could learn how to do it. This seemed like a good excuse to ask for advice in learning how to do that. I find internet forums like this one are usually an excellent place to get such advice. I've had very good luck in the past learning from experienced people on other forums, and have tried to help others in return when my knowledge would help them.
Maybe I've somehow stumbled into a touchy area with this beam question, I hope so, because if this is how you guys respond to the typical question on this forum then I have to say you need to lighten up. The attitude on other forums is much friendlier. I've learned much from the (almost universally gracious) people on gun forums, for example. Who'd have thought the shooting community would be less confrontational than carpenters?
Why in the world is this such a big deal to some of you? Why do some of you get so bent out of shape when I ask a simple civil question? If you think it is a frivolous question then feel free to ignore it. If you have some "personal issues" about civilians second guessing your God like judgement then... please start your own thread rather than using mine to vent.
To those of you who've responded to my original question, thank you, your responses have been helpful.
The beam will be attached to the existing gable end of he house. It will rest above a door, so I assume a properly sized header, supported by posts that trace their support to the foundation, is what will be happening there.
I'm inclined to go with the two 9.5" beams rather than the one or three beam options, as that will be the best balance of hieght (to maximize headroom) and width (to avoid being wider than the 4x4 post). The structure will remain exposed, so I don't want it to look clunky.
Don't take any of this personally. Some thread just take off like this. There are personality conflicts, disagreements, ignorance about issues, and stuff like that. There's also some inherent suspicion sometimes when someone unknown questions something. Sometimes it looks like they're trying to get away with something cheap or something along those lines. That tends to get everyone's blood going a bit. You basically got the info you wanted. So let everyone slug it out, and the thread will die off eventually.
Better over the hill than under the hill
Good advice Boss.
Quick thoughts,
Joe in back is probably costing the lumberyard twice as much as Bob the salesman up front. So the yard doesn't want Joe talking with customers all day.
For your beam weight, I usually round up to 6lbs per sqr ft for 1 3/4" LVL. So your 11 7/8 is about 6lbs per foot. 14 feet is 84lbs. Piece o' cake.
If you go the double 9.5", place them seperately, and spike them together when they are in place.
Bowz
Let me start by apologizing. Looks like I read too much into that first post request. You do think things thru well enough to do fine, especially as small as this adition is.But5 to answer your query why we can get so wound up over something so simple ...One is that we way too often see a situation where the guy asking the question leaks information out a dro ata time until we find out that this is really a whole diffeerent project than what he first described so things are rarely at face =valueTwo - this forum really is quite congenial, more so than all the opther buiolding forums I know of put together, but it is made up of some top guns. If you know how high strung top performers can be - don't let your daughter date one of them...Three - if you visit most of those building forums, you will find that it is a stock answer for structural advice to seek a professional, mainly because all the facts cannot be assessed from an owners descripotion because most of the time, they don't begin to know what to look for and don't know the difference between a joist and a stud. The liability of giving wrong advice or having it wrongly interpreted and applied rests heavy
So- you had already gotten the advice of a pro on the issue, suggesting in the lack of trust in that opinion that there could as likely be a problem with you as with the pro. People who lack trust are often not trustworthy in my experience ( No offense nmeant to Gene) so the radar was buzzing.You mention gun forums. This subject here could be compared perhaps to someone coming on such aforum with the following;> "I have overheard some guys at Walmart talking about bumping up the velocity of their bullets. My barrel is 30" long. Can I add some powder to each cartridge and make sure my bullets kill the deer? They are thirty calibre. Aslo if I can make my gun shoot faster like on TV that would be good too."<See how many questions come up in your mind when you read that? How many things are implied to the seasoned shooter by the choice of words from the novice? Doesn't his last line sound scary?I have used some hyperbole` in that made up request to get tthe point across. Yours was far less inexperienced than that, but there were still hints that you are a novice, possibly one alreaduy in over your head on this. i think you can surely handle it now that I know you better, but that's where the first impression comes from that you asked about. Sorry to have been too brutal.
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"but then I realized I can probably hang the rafters off the side of the ridge beam. That is OK on a load bearing ridge, right?"Definetely. I have no way to quantify my guess, but I would be inclined to think that rafters connected to the side of the ridge would give you a better connection than the beam supporting the underside of the rafters.How are you supporting this beam where it meets the house?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Guys, I've watched this thread develop, and I haven't heard anyone give this beam "requirement" the gut test.
Fact - NO 80-150 year old houses in my county in Georgia (and I've worked on a lot of them, and been in more) have ANY RIDGE BEAM AT ALL, even with 18' rafters, merely the 1x3 strapping purlins at 10-12" OC that the wood shingles sit / sat on. The rafter ends simply abut.
Granted, we don't get snow, but a 6x12 ridge beam equivalent for this tiny shed?
A decent skin of 1/2" ply on an 8/12 pitch would be measurably stiffer in plane than any ridge beam would be capable of resisting in sideways deflection, that is, resisting the asymmetric loading from high wind on one side of the structure. Further, evenly distributed snow load places NO LOAD on the ridge beam at all, if the rafter ends line up. the ridge beam is merely a place holder.
Collar ties, or "wind braces" are also foolish and only useful for whacking your head.
Forrest McCanless - BSME 10 years; builder / general contractor for 10 years
Those houses you're referring to.... the ones with no ridge board or beam. I'll bet my last dollar that they have ceiling joists/attic floor joists keeping the walls from spreading.
In the OP situation he is trying to build a structure that won't have any ceiling joists or walls ties to prevent the walls from spreading. Hence the need for a ridge beam. One way or another you've got to have something to stop the walls from bowing out. That's not technology.... it's just physics.
I think maybe you might be getting ridge board and ridge beam confused. Correct me if I'm wrong. Wouldn't be the first time. ;)View Image
Okay - so there is no "attic" and flat ceiling below? This structure has a 5-sided open cross section (floor, two vertical walls, and two sloped ceiling halves?
Then I stand corrected - the ridge beam is supporting half the vertical roof load in this case. Maybe he wants to make sure any gable end door or window is not centered, or darned well headered!
Forrest .
Yes... that's the way I've understood the project anyway.
I agree with some of your original post though, just not in this particular instance. In many cases a ridge board isn't necessary and just serves as a nailer for the rafters. Roof framing seems to have become more complicated on the whole compared to the houses you were talking about. Tough to frame a true hanging valley without a ridge to nail the major off to. Same goes for hip roofs. In all, I think a ridgeboard often makes the roof logistically easier to frame.
But I also don't really agree with your take on collar ties either. The way I've always understood them, their purpose is to prevent a roof from opening up (like a clam) at the ridge under severe winds like a tornado or hurricane. Why is it that you think they're nothing more than headknockers? I'm not trying to pick a fight, I'm just curious what your line of thinking might be behind that.View Image
I got up in my attic last night and checked - my 1886 house has four "hanging" valleys with no ridge boards; rough cut 2x4s for all rafters. The plan view of the roof is a squared "U" with the base facing the street, hipped all around. There is a gable facing the street.
I'll see if I can dig out the FH article from some years ago that discussed the needlessness of collar ties / wind braces, from some structural engineer.
Forrest
Now there's a line of pure BS."A decent skin of 1/2" ply on an 8/12 pitch would be measurably stiffer in plane than any ridge beam would be capable of resisting in sideways deflection, that is, resisting the asymmetric loading from high wind on one side of the structure. Further, evenly distributed snow load places NO LOAD on the ridge beam at all, if the rafter ends line up. the ridge beam is merely a place holder."If you designed up here, it would keep a crew busy rebuilding your stuffyou are totally ignoring that the cieling joists you use act as rafter ties to prevent wall spread and ridge sag by creating a compleete triangle. This thread example has no cieling ties resisting those forces. A roof design must have one or the other to resist the loads.
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"A decent skin of 1/2" ply on an 8/12 pitch would be measurably stiffer in plane than any ridge beam would be capable of resisting in sideways.."
A plywood skin can definitely collect a lot of shear forces. But that force has to be tied off to something that will RESIST that force.
That requires some more design work, and a specific naiing schedule. You might end up blocking the edges of the plywood or something like that.
Dieselpig is right about the function of collar ties.
I decided to get in shape, and the shape I chose was a sphere.
It is normal to attach rafters to the side of the the structural ridge pole- in an insulated roof I usually let the rafters sit about 3/4'' above the beam to complete the airway to the ridge vent.
However, as for your situation being "simple"- I guess I'm not getting the whole picture. You talk about built- up deck pallet floor and attachment to adjacent roof,etc.- this is why it's important that the beam designer understands the exact circumstances of the beam's layout. Also, you say you assume each wall takes 1/4 and the ridge takes the rest but that's where an eingineer comes in. If you talk to an eingineer you may find out that in a wind loaded situation the ridge may be required to take on the entire load. Engineers, often times, are accussed of not having common sense, I've learned from using them that there can be important reasons for it. This is why I prefer to pay a certified stuctural engineer to size a beam I feel is getting past the "simple" layout.
BAB,
Hopefully you got an answer after all. Sometimes you've got to wade through the crap that floats around here, end of the day this is a public forum, nobody owns it except the Taunton Press, and you can ask any question you like, novice, professional or percieved professional alike. Good luck with your project.
I wouldn't trust anybody at any of the local yards to size me a roof beam. Period.
Maybe you have pros there you'll trust, but where I am, nobody knows nuthin'.
Give the guy a break. Maybe the "pro" he asked at his local yard didn't seem too bright, and he came here to talk to some more "pros."
Maybe I'm jaded, but maybe I'm not.
Just sounded like he's second guessing what he was told would work using nothing more than "Kentucky windage". See too much of that. If it were easy, everyone would be doing it. And lately everyone is.
And yes, around here the larger lumber yards have architects and engineers on staff along with a huge selection of manufacturer's engineering software to work from. You bet I trust them.
View Image
Architects and engineers working for the lumberyard? Using structural software?
Have you moved from CT, and now operate out of Dubai?
Things almost sound worse. I know I cannot expect the yahoos here to do my structural work, but if I went down to the yard and found they hired an engineer, I'm not sure I would trust one that needed a job that bad he took one there.
National Lumber, Gene. Newton, Mansfield, and Salem MA. Architects and engineers on staff. You can walk in with an idea and they'll produce a set of drawings for you if you want.
And FWIW, anyone selling LVL or other engineered products should, in the very least, have the software that the manufacturers provide and have someone on staff who knows how to use it. At a minimum.
Now who's being skeptical?View Image
And FWIW, anyone selling LVL or other engineered products should, in the very least, have the software that the manufacturers provide and have someone on staff who knows how to use it. At a minimum.
Exactly! and if they don't it's hardly a big deal to fax a reduced copy of the print off to the manufacturer. One of the yards I used to deal with would do just that and have an answer within 4 hours.
Yeah but old Stinger is making it sound like fax machines haven't reached his parts yet. Apparently he thinks I'm trying to tell him my lumberyard is run by NASA or something. Is it really that far fetched to think that a business as big as lumbersales might actually have some competant people working in it?
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Some places maybe.
The Yard I always used was top notch. They didn't have guys on staff but they knew exactly who to send it to in order to get the answer.
I'm always amazed at builders and contractors who will just wing it. I used to frame for a builder who used TJI's ut he did the take off himself everytime. I convinced him to drop a plan off at the yard I used. Two days later he got back his plan as well as a TJI layout that included every little detail. In the end, using the layout from the manufacturer ended up saving him like $5K on a 4000sqft house compared to his takeoff.
Any big yard that wants to compete around here had better offer that kind of service.
Not to hi-jack the thread.....but I was planning to do the take off on my next house myself. as I found that on the house I'm doing now the take offs I got were all different from each other, and the one that I went with turned out to have many errors in it.(I went with one of the biggest yards in my area - not the neighbourhood yard)
what has your experience been? how accurate have you found your take offs to be?
I'm enjoying the repartee of my comrades here
you mentioned you do not want collar ties - are we to assume you are going for a cathedral ceiling or can you utilize ceiling joists
if so you go from the prospects of a difficult to manage ( by your one man band ) heavy piece of structural wood to possibility of no ridge beam and "triangular" trusses easy to mount on your top plates
One guy, correctly prepared, can use a $20 bill and a few minutes from the lumberyard delivery driver to get a 14' piece of 4x12 up. The same approach can get concrete screeded by the guy driving the mix truck. You learn stuff like that when you've worked solo a lot.
Alrightythen,
I've done about a zillion take-offs and I've only learned one thing from them. The Lumber take off itself is only good if A) the guy who does the take off gives you some kind of idea as to what is used for where Or B) You and the guy who does the take off think alike and use your lumber the same way. I used to work for a father and son team as a foreman. When the lumber was dropped you had to know who did the take off or none of it made sense. The kid would get 20' 2X4's for garage studs and the father would get 12' 2x4's fpr garage studs. Stuff like that.
Pure Lumber take-offs can be spotty.
Engineered lumber/Truss take-offs/layouts are much less of a guess. I know that if you plan to use TJI's you can get a computerized layout and Take-off that shows crush blocks, hangers, rim joist and just about anything else you will need and it's spot on.
Dimensional Lumber and Engineered products are two different animals but so many guys just make a list as if they were using 2X10's without even considering the benefits and savings, sometimes in labor alone of using some kind of I joist. Maybe a larger I joist could be used 16" on center where 2X10's or 12's might need to be on 12" centers. Things like that.
As for pure lumber take offs? I've let a yard do them and they haven't been too bad. They work better if the yard and salesman have an idea how you want to build it or ask questions about how you use stuff.
Us old men get cranky like that sometimes when they forget to change our diapers
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You old men may get cranky, but us young pups get testy when reprimanded.
I guess maybe I'm spoiled here with the service we get from the bigger yards.View Image
I've done business with National, and they are great! Saw the Salen Firefighter rescue the dog on CNN!! Great show!! I,m in Rangeley, ME., but work everywhere!!If, at first, you fricascee, fry, fry a hen!
Walked thru the pool area of a Naples, FL condo last week when on vacation. Sign says, "Individuals in diapers not permitted in swimming pool." (emphasis mine).
But Brian, have you checked that cool map site that shows where all the registered Breaktimers live? We aren't all camped up and down the I-95 megalopolis corridor.
There are a whole lot of us living in flyover land, dealing with little old country lumberyards. The fax machine in use at the yard here in town is an oldy, still using that thermal paper.
I just got back from a week's vacation in Naples, FL. I am always impressed when I see things happening in a large housing market like that. It's nothing like Phoenix or Las Vegas, but it is huge when compared to Lake Placid, and really sophisticated. Contractor trucks all bear their county and state license numbers. The megahouse sites are hardhat zones, with sometimes three office trailers, not just one. Siltfence perimeters. Rebar ends all capped with pasties. County inspection placques up on standards looking like highway signs.
The local rental yards all stocking twenty or so telescopic forklifts, Lulls, Cats, I-Rs, huge boomlengths and capacities, all stuck out full length so you can't miss them.
I know you have pros there, Brian. I was just ribbing you, and making my backcountry scene here sound like Dogpatch.
Personnal, I get more bad information from "professional" than good (mostly in teh financial field not construction). I do my homework, I know what I know and I know what I don't know. Then I ask. And, yes, damnn straight I second guess. So I confirm it again with another pro.
Can this really be all that unusal? Really? If so, why is it you go to four different professionals and get four different solutions to one problem? Are all the solutions of equal validity? Doubtful.
This is in no way taking anything away from the really good professionals, of which I am sure each and everyone of the professionals posting in this forum fall. But how is Joe supposed to know the difference? It starts with a lot of homework, and then a bit of second guessing. OR you just trust someone you never met before. HMM?
You done now?
Feel better?
Proud of yourself?
Glad I could help.View Image
Don't know how I could possibly add anything to such an informative and professional thread, but...I don't see any reason that beam this simple should be designed by an engineer. Single, span, not too long, and not a complicated loading situation. Anyone with some training could handle it easily. I guess the thing that I question is - How much training has the guy at the lumberyard designing beams actually had? They may be excellent at doing this, or may not. So I don't have any problem with having someone question their work. If they're experienced, they'll be able to show how they did their load development. They should be able to show how much deflection the beam has, if it's really maxed out or works easily, etc. They should understand the situation it's being used in, design it accordingly, and explain their reasoning.If they can't discuss any/all of the above, they may not know what they're doing. And I'd say it's completely appropriate to question their conclusion(s).Also - Anybody can make mistakes. (Even engineers)If the answer seems out of line with your experience, I'd say the results need questioned. They may be right and they may not. I don't mind double-checking my work if someone asks, as long as they're not a smart-a$$ about it.. .To the original poster - The answers you got sound reasonable. But I can't say for certain without knowing your local codes and loading requirements. If anything they're a little light.
From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs. [Karl Marx]
I share the original poster's skepticism about his lumberyard guy. I don't see how a single 11-1/2" LVL and a 6x12 sawn beam are in the same category. Maybe I don't know enough about LVL.
FWIW, I can get simple beams sized by submitting plans without the beams spec'd. The plan-checker has beam calc software that he uses to double-check stuff, and if you omit a spec he'll calc one for you. In this day and age of building departments swearing off liability, I'm not sure why they do it, but they do.
"I don't see how a single 11-1/2" LVL and a 6x12 sawn beam are in the same category. Maybe I don't know enough about LVL."
Couple of things to keep in mind -
LVL has much higher design values that sawn lumber. So it might be that they're reasonably close.
The single LVL could have been maxed, out, but the 6X12 beam wasn't anywhere near capacity. Maybe the 6X12 beam was just something they had in stock and the guy threw it out as an option.
No way to know from here...
Ten percent of men prefer women with large thighs.
Another 10% prefer small thighs.
The other 80% prefer something inbetween.
So david, are you second guessing a professional? Say it isn't so!
You're lookin' to be everyone's best friend, I guess. When I get some spare time I'll try to figure out what your contribution has been. In caveman times you would probably have had five or six really ugly guys breaking your skull with clubs. These days all we have in the 'ignore' function. Unless I'm reading you wrong and you have a major sense of humor that's way over my head....
And then you wonder????? You build a very nice case for me!
Obviously your character is to stalk around and be an AZ. First with the poor guy who had the gaul to question God's like yourself and then the guy who thinks that is a bit rough.
Pity your clients, if you can stay in business! LOL!
Well, diesel, how do you explain how four "professionals" can have four different "BEST" solutions for a problem?
There is only one BEST (although the other three could be close or OK) solution.
So, I suppose you could say that a customer HAS to second Guess.
so what point are you trying to make other than to have fun and beat up on a innocent guy asking an innocent question.
So, does your manhood feel better?
You done now?
Feel better?
Proud of yourself?
Glad I could help.
Hey guy, what's your beef with me anyway? This isn't the first thread you've followed me into and started crap. You don't like me? Fantastic. No big deal. I don't like you much either, but life goes on. Get over what "it" is.
Apparently I was wrong in judging the original poster. Wasn't the first time, and I'm sure it won't be the last time. Also doubt I'm the only one who has ever done it. But if you hang around here long enough you'll see post after post of guys who come in looking for advice, don't hear what they want to hear, and end up arguing the good advice given to them. Again and again. It gets old. Apparently I jumped the gun in this particular instance.
To the original poster: Sorry bud. I judged you and I shouldn't have. My sincere apologies. I truly hope your project comes out great.
To you: KMA. What are you his lawyer? You wanna give someone a hard time? Give it to you mother for dropping you on your head so many times.View Image
Dear Pig,
Follow you around? Give you a hard time? If I happen to read the same threads as you and reply to your posts in like tone each time, first consder it a conincidence and secondly maybe you aut to consider your consistant arrogant tone as the reason.
I don't need much evidence here. You admit to "jumping the gun". Surprise!
" But if you hang around here long enough you'll see post after post of guys who come in looking for advice, don't hear what they want to hear, and end up arguing the good advice given to them. Again and again. It gets old."
If so why to you bother with lowly scum like customers? Is it not beheath the Gods?
"Give it to you mother for dropping you on your head so many times."
Uncalled for and rud, but considering the source, expected. And then you wonder why, someone might find your posts arrogant and offensive? You are a Horse's ...
You still here? You sure are pesky.
Man you sound just like my ex-girlfriend from back in the day.
Blah, blah, blah...
You keep typing but all I see is blah, blah, blah.
Give it up would you? I'll try to be a little more sensitive if it makes you feel any better. I really got your panties all up in a wad, didn't I? View Image
Still being an Az I see. Got your goat, LOL!!!
The last word is all yours my friend. What do say we leave this nonsense here in this thread and move on? We don't have to like each other (and honestly, I'd have to meet you face to face to form a real opinion), but I think we can be grown up enough to get along in internet forum. Despite the crap flying in this thread. At this point we're just embarassing ourselves.
View Image
diesel, I can be done if you like.
As for liking you or disliking you, it is not an issue. The issue is what is said.
I will not insult you, attack you, or whatever word you wish to attach to whatever we are doing here, on any other thread. Then again if someone is rude, or nasty, to a guy asking an innocent question I might have something to say to that individual on that thread. Time will tell if that happens and if it does who it will be that will be rude or nasty.
U ready to switch back to your "regular" screen name?
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
The Halls of Justice have spoken, I guess. You know, I tried, but you still wanna be a dink about this. Go for it.
Go back and read my original post again. It's really not even rude. A little gruff, sure. But I didn't insult the guy. I just questioned him on his motives. Grow some skin, grow a pair.... grow something.
Ever hear that Motley Crue song?
"Girl, don't go away mad. Girl, just go away"
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Edited 1/4/2006 11:41 pm ET by dieselpig
football games keeping you up to all hours?
good game so far.
Just holding on to the fact that another season is just about over. How many days 'till pitchers and catchers report? I'd love to see USC fall. Loved seeing PSU beat out the Criminoles last night too. View Image
49 from Thursday.
I hope Lendell White declares for the draft, and is available in the late first round. He'd look great in the Steelers backfield. He might fall that far in the draft because he's been stuck behind Reggie Bush, but he's a bruiser.
"The Halls of Justice have spoken, I guess."Are you referring to Jeff Buck as the "Hall of Justice"???Not that I'm disagreeing or anything, but what does that mean for the rest of us?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Let's see how long we can keep this thread going and how many people can get mad.
There have been several mentions of the " roof pitch doesn't matter much, a foot of snow on roof is a foot of snow, irregardless of the roof pitch"or comments to that effect. Well how about wind loading? Seems like a 14/12 has a much larger "sail" area than a 4/12.
Doing my best
"Well how about wind loading? Seems like a 14/12 has a much larger "sail" area than a 4/12."
Wind design is a whole different ball game.
In general, all wind design does to trusses is cause it to show an uplift reaction on the drawings. On taller trusses it will add some braces to the webs. But it mostly does nothing.
You're correct that the steeper the pitch, the more the wind affects the structure. You get more uplift and more horizontal thrust on a structure.
A patriotic American likes to discuss the Constitution of the United States despite the fact he has never taken the time to read it.
I'm sorry, Jon but I'm not quite sure what you're asking me.View Image
Brian,Your post #98 was right after Buck posted #97. When I first read your post I thought to myself "is he responding to Jeff calling the guy named "Shaken" on his antics in this thread and others?"Evidently my attempt at humor was a little forced.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Sorry Jon.... I'm a little slow on the uptake sometimes.View Image
humor or no humor ...
I am THE hall of justice ...
and I have spoken!
next case please ... gotta keep things moving ...
btw ... being THE hall of justice ... I get to hang out with Super Hero's too!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Let it go, will ya?You can't win in this situation. You're just beating your head against the wall arguing with this guy.
We judge others by their actions, but we judge ourselves by our intentions. [Jerry Wunder]
The same yard also spec'd out scissor trusses as an option. 8/12 top pitch, 6/12 bottom pitch. These would be simpler to install than the load bearing ridge (wouldn't have to open the existing wall, no header, etc...) so they are worth considering. Bottom line is whether simplifying the assembly would be worth the added visual clutter. I'll probably mock it up to get a feel for it, then make the call.
Thanks for the advice.
You can consider having a timber truss maker or a timberframe shop make you timber trusses, which you can space on about 4 foot centers. You'll only need four, and then you can deck the thing with heavy laminated cedar tongue and groove decking, strap and insulate with rigid foam on top.
Then you will have clutter that makes a nice design statement!
No need, or desire, for insulation. This is to be a 3-season porch and will never be heated space.
Though... I suppose I'd better check and make sure the building dept won't try to force me to have insulation for some goofy reason. Isulation would ruin the look, and kill the head room.
You're right dude. Thanks.View Image
Spoken from your long experience in the walkerwar?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Well, yeah - But that's not my fault.(-:
The great crime of the 20th century, in my mind, is that we now work harder than ever before. Why is that? To what end is that leading? How are we supposed to free our minds if we spend all our time working? [Adam Rifkin]
Boss, if you care about reality, then again most people don't, but in case you are the exception, go back and count the number of nasty names PIGAZZ has used in his posts to me and compare. Teh margin is ten to one. Then again we have that reality thing. You could have a friend murder someone and just move on. Ignore reality, becasue he is your friend. Pathetic, but typical.
I know DieselPig - I don't know you. My point to him was that there's no reason to continue a pointless arguement. And the arguement between you has degenerated into petty bickering. I believe Dieselpig is a better man than that. You I have no track record with yet, so I can't tell. But based on this thread alone it's not looking too good.
The $10 million Clinton is getting for his book beats the old record of $8.5 million paid to the Pope. How do you think this makes the Pope feel? The man dedicates his life to the 10 Commandments, he gets 8.5. Clinton breaks every one of them, he gets 10. [Jay Leno]
You thought Pig was a better man than that? Really, well perhaps you now have a clue.
Pig started right out after the inocent guy with "Let me get this right?" Now does that sound friendly to you are a bit like an AZ? Then he goes not with "Now you wnat to second guess him?" Now does that sound a bit like a GOD complex to you? I think if you are honest you would have to say that it does.
My response to such was direct but in no was attacking. I mirely ask if gettting second opinions is really a crime. It would be a crime if you have a God complex of course. I did say that I had gotten really bad advice from professionals and I clarifiied that MOST OF THE was from financial professional.
I could have sited a different example. Perhaps like an old lady friend I know. She went to a professional. She was having trouble with her eye-sight. The doctor told her she had maclar degeneration. Second opinion, second guess? NO. Ultimately she could no longer drive, sold her lake home and moved in to an assisted living home as a result. Then she had pain in her eyes, went to the same doctor. He sad "Well, sometimes we get things in our eyes". The pain went away. Second opinion? NO. The pain returned. She went to the doctor who then said she should see a cornea specialist.
She went to eh specialist. He asked if the other doctor had given her medication for teh pain. She said NO. The doctor gave her an obvious look of "what a quack".
Well, she had cateracts! The first doctor had said nothign. She had those removed and then a two cornea transplnts. She now has corrective vision to 20/40 and can drive again.
Too bad she HAD TO SELL HER LAKE PLACE which since appreciated by a factor of four. Too bad she had to worry for years that she would go blind from maclar degeneration WHICH SHE NEVER HAD! But she had seen a professional!
SO I digressed. What was the PIG's reply? dId he reply to the issue that it is not unusally for people to get second or third bids and or second opinions? Of course not, his GOD complex forbided it, he acted like a school girl and raved about my mother, chmeical imbalances, adn on and on and on.
REad it an wip if you must. It is all in print. Ignore it? Sure.
But come on. A second opinion is not a crime and not a reason to repond to such a request like an AZ.
I am sure you do every lonely night, but screw yourself.
Actually it is you who should review the thread.
Original Poster.
You were not exactly nice to the guy and made "pros" out to be Gods.
I reply with not ONE nasty name.
Your next post is filled with trash talk and each post after that.
Get a clue! Or you will continue to have to spend the rest of your nights alone with lefty.
You're obviously chemically imbalanced and that sorta takes the fun out of messing with you. Upon reading your last post I realized that not only are you off your medication, it also appears as though you are blind. I'm sorry for your unfortunate situation and hope things turn around for you soon. I'm going to have to end our banter now. Nice talking with you.View Image
You are obviously a school girl crybaby! I have never seen a grown man ramble on and one with such childish retorts. dising mothers, medication, droping babies on heads, and on and on and on. Just stop being an arrogant az and grow up.
Man, if we're not careful here, that tavern is gonna be one crowded place.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
I'm not even the target, I don't think anyway, but I decided it's time to put the loser Shaken and stirred up on my ignored list
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I've given the same thought to several respondents lately. This place has become a harbor for some pretty shady personalities. Why do you think that is? Winter doldrums? Expanded magazine readership? google hits?
Add that to the don't even think about letting it die syndrome............man, that's some kinda vendetta.
So, how's things?A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Things?I spent part of the day thinking of Mike S little job problem. seems this sort of hassling is in other places too....LOLyesterday, I'm on the road between jobs and come up behind a small station wagon/hatchbacl type thing going a little faster than he. All of a sudden, he slams on the brakes to a dead stop.Thinking that he must be a tourist spotting a deer for the first time in his life, I stop a few car lengths behind him to wait - it's a blind hill. He3 jumps out and comes back to me si I roll down my window thinking OK he's got an emergency...Nope!
"ARE YOU IN SOME KIND OF A DAMN HURRY OR SOMETHING? GET THE H*** OFFAMAYASS!""Bud, I was nowhere near yourass until you stopped in the road"now I'm wondering if I shoulda responed given that he seemed paranoid and drugged up and I was one arm in sling...woulda been an even fight...right there in the slushbut he turned and went back to his car.Oh well!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Oh man, its things like that gives new meaning to
Never a Dull Moment.
Have a good weekend.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
>>This place has become a harbor for some pretty shady personalitiesAnd too think some of them might be contractors ;)Though my sense is that most of them are not.I've been following some of these threads like one watches sitcoms.
A sit/com/tradgedy for sure. Funny thing is another one of the regulars will get a time out again someday and these bozo's can run rampant.
Where's the justice?
A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Kind of like in football, they always catch the guy who strikes back.BTW are you rooting for Cinci, or are you a Browns fan?
Now, that's an oxy moron.
Browns fan rooting for Pittsburgh?
Either way, answer is the same.
Go Bengals.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
FWIW my Superbowl pick has been Bears vs. Bengals. My brother lives in Cleveland and before that Pittsburgh, and I think he roots for both somehow, so he is an oxymoron. lol
I read what the guy said and he didn't seem too hard. There are lot's of blunt guys in construction. You have to get a thicker skin.
I think you are the one that is too hard. My dad always said that if someone apologizes then accept it. I'm teaching that to my sons.
Good luck sir
McC good advice. But which was the apology, the part about being dropped on my head, chemical imbalance, or one of the other dozen school girl comments. I must ahve missed.
The AZ can't read either. I said I would commment on OTHER people's rudeness if I ran across it in other threads. The Pig just lept of another cliff and had a nother girlly fit at that. Go figure.
As for getting thicker skin. Why should I? I was not the innocent guy who asked the opening question that had a new buthole rippe in his side. You are mistaken if you think PIG's reply was kind hearted.
Enough is enough.
You are a troll for sure bro
You gotta get out more
It's over guy.
Take a deep breath and let it go.
Talk to you later.View Image
Great! I told you before, I don't have any problem with you. What would I care? I don't have to work with you.
I do have a problem with several charater issues (in others) which I have already identified. I have lsited them before, and I will add that I will not hesitate to comment on such if and when I see them again demonstrated by anybody.
So we part friends.
Hey SYSOP, what's the chance of shaking this AH off the board?
Put him wherever Arlo is.
Joe H
Don't suppose you're noticing a pattern here, are you?Go troll somewhere else.
Your village just called. They're missing an idiot.
Notice the pattern? Sure I do you people on this board have never grown up. Still in you high school click.
If you pulled your head out, you could count the juvenile retorts of you buddy by a ten to one ration to mine. But alas, people like yourself love to ignore facts in your arrogance. No problem, it makes teh world go round.
I just am able to see it. LOL!
"I do have a problem with several charater issues (in others) "
And that says it all.
Buddy, you've been shaken once too many.
Why don't you crawl back where you came from?
Joe H
Usually the lumber yards that deal in either Boise or Trus Joist engineered materials have a service agreement with those manufacturers to be able to call engineers with the specifics and get the guaranteed correct specs.I've even asked if they can provide me with an engineer's stamp if required (as with building for others I prefer) and they have had no problem.We have used such services through a local yard with no problem and they will, through the manufacturer's engineering specs, back up their work.I know some people around here that even drop their plans off with the local yards for a complete take0off and analysis. Not the way we do things, but its done so I'm told.
No, there are no simple on line tools for you, unless you know first how to develop how much load the beam is to handle.
If you know what your "ground snow load" is for your location, and you know enough to tell what to use for a dead load, you can determine the beam's loading.
Let's use 40 psf for the snow, and 10 psf dead. Each foot of the ridge will be picking up the load from half the span of the attaching rafters, or 4 sf of loading per, therefore when we add the loads of 40 and 10, getting 50 pounds per lineal foot, we can go to some tables for beams and see what size is needed.
Use your ridge span of 14 feet, a total load of 50 plf, and see what the TrusJoist specifier's guide for their Microlam LVL will recommend for a size, then go one size up to be safe.
Edit: I just came back from the TrusJoist site, where I downloaded the specifiers guide for Microlam LVLs, and did some looking.
Using the loading of 40 live (snow) and 10 dead, a single-ply 9.5 (1-3/4x9-1/2) LVL will handle the total load, but will be marginal under the L/240 deflection rule. Moving up to the deeper singleply 11.25 size (1-3/4x11-1/4) size, we have all the beef we need, plus some to spare.
But everything hinges on snow loading, and I've made an assumption on the 40 psf.
The best way to get a read on your snow load situation is to call your local building department and ask the person that does plans review.
Edited 1/2/2006 9:35 pm ET by Stinger
You also made an assumption on dead load. This soundslike a cathedral cieling so the insulation and SR will hang from these rafters, making the DL more lik e15#. I would assume 60# for Minnesota live laods, but heck, I've never been there, one of the few..So I figure anout 75#/sf times 112 sf for a load of 8400# to support, just to play devil's advocate...year treating you good enough so far Gene?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
So far so good, Pif. We're into the fine woodworking now, having hung or run most all the running trim, and all the good tools are out and being used. I like the built-in work the best.
To keep our skiers tans, we take off on the clear days to go slide down the mountain or whip around the xc track on skate skis. Wednesday looks like a good one.
Enjoy it then - but I wouldn't trust the moguls if I were you;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
For my own education, the square footage you calculated was based on a tributary area of 8' wide by 14' long..but wouldn't you base the area on the sloped length of the rafters?
"wouldn't you base the area on the sloped length of the rafters?"
Nope. It's always based on the horizontal area.
With trusses, there's been some move toward doing it based on the slope length. Don't know about rafters. But I don't know if it will be adopted or not.
There's some logic to doing it either way. If you get a foot of snow, it's still only on foot deep whether the roof is 12/12 or flat. So it's the same PSF per square foot.
The dead load changes some with the roof slope. But the typical 10 PSF that's used around here is MORE than enough to cover any typical slope. If they change to a slope-based PSF load, the PSF load will be smaller. So you end up with about the same thing.
Housework probably won't kill you.
But why take a chance?
Excellent response.
Happy New Year Boss.
Well, I didn't learn to do it that way. it's an interesting question though.My own reasoning would be that for one thing the steeper slope that creates a longer rafter span is also going to create a roof that will shed water and snow more quickly and have less of the kind of buildup that leads to structural failure.But liveloads also consider winds, and a taller roof can catch more wind, so I suppose there is room to consider either way
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Very logical thinking. I thought the same before looking into span tables.
I think part of the reason they don't use rafter lenght is that snow falls down. LOL. The amount of snow on a roof is governed by the span not the length of teh rafter. No more or no less snow sits on a 12 in 12 pitch roof spaning 20 feet than a 4 in 12. (Particularly wet snow, dry snow might actually blow off a steep roof lessening teh load).
Nope.
I think you misspoke. It is not 50 pounds per LF but 50 pounds per sq ft. Since the span is 8 feet, half is 4 or 200 pounds per LF of beam.
You are right, but I caught my error and used the 200 plf when selecting the beams. The 50 psf times the tributary area of 4 sf per lf of beam is what I used. Check my earlier post where I recommended the sizing. My recommendation still stands . . . a single ply 11.25 LVL can be used.
Thanks, Stinger. I just wanted the readers to be sure they understood the details fo the calculations.. I am sure most understood, some did not.
Again.......this is a gable roof, the beam has rafters (and the 200 lb load) on BOTH sides. Please see my responce to shaken.
I spotted that too, but remember that it is 4' on EACH SIDE OF THE BEAM. The beam needs to take 8 sq ft of load per linear ft of run.
So.....dead load + live load X 8 X 14 (Pif had it right)
So some "reverse engineering" info on load carrying PER/ LIN FT for common sizes:
4X10 = 203 giving you(25 lbs/sq ft total)
4X12 = 301 for (37 lbs/sq ft)
6X12 = 494 for (61.75 lbs/sq ft)
It does not appear that the yard was too far off.
Oh contreire. LOL! Half the load is carried by the walls. >>> 4 sq ft.
My error...You are correct,
I thought it was 8' on each side of the beam (16' wide room). So if you use the 50# live mentioned before, and a 10# dead you have a total load of
50 + 10 = 60 x 4' = 240 lbs / linear ft.
for a 14' span.....w/ a fiber stress in bending of 1200, and deflection @ l/360....
2 X 12 will take 129 lbs/lin ft (X2 will work)
4X12 will take 301 lbs/lin ft
I think I am going to start beating my second horse now, this one has had it.
Not quite right re the load picked up by the beam from the rafters. The building's width is only 8 feet, thus each rafter spans 4 feet, and the rafters have half their load being picked up by the walls.
Thus, each foot of ridge beam is picking up the load from only 4 sf of roof.
Engineers and builders rough out the loads on roof beams by looking at the "tributary areas" of roof contributing to a beam's loading. Normally, we go half way between bearings to sketch in the tributary area boundaries.
At 8 feet wide by 14 feet long, with its ridge running lengthwise, this thing is about the size of a camper trailer.
You are right. I am familiar w/ how it works. Just read the op too quickly and erronously used a room width of 16' instead of 8'.
I corrected my calcs in post # 73.
Thanks for the heads up though.
i'll be putting up a small sunroom on my brick ranchstyle home in va. Since a very large part will be glass, probably 80% of the 8 ft by 8 ft room i want to use redwood siding applied vertically, instead o f horizontal beveled siding. i can get dimension redwood, and think silicone clear calk applied on the seams and butts should be ok.Finish will be semitransparent stain. Any comments suggestions; appreciate any advice and help you can give me.thanks
Coastie... my suggestions... delete the post you made in this thread (there is a delete button for you) and start a new thread with the same content. That way you will get some replies. Be sure to make the title clear so people know what the thread is about.
I did some searches using "Minnesota snow load" and found that the ground snow load for MN is 60 psf in some counties, and 50 psf for all the others.
Design snow loads for roofs are derived from the ground snow loads, and ASCE guidelines factor the design snow loads using a number of criteria such as exposure, relation to other structures, and others. To give an example, a house I am currently completing has an engineered truss roof structure, my ground snow load is 85 psf, and ASCE-7 was used by the truss engineers to develop a design snow loading of 66 psf (live load). I used the 66 psf live loading to size all the steel and LVL beams in the structure.
You can size your ridge by being over conservative, using the 60 psf snow load, unfactored by ASCE-7, a dead loading (from what you've given) of 12 psf, thus totaling 72 psf. With your tributary area given, your beam needs to be sufficient for handling 288 plf for its 14 foot span.
My local lumberyards stock 1.9e LVLs in both 11-1/4 and 11-7/8 size. If it is the same where you are, go ahead and buy the 11-7/8 size and get on with your job.
John Carroll has written an excellent small book called "Working Alone" which has some great advice, with drawings, on raising a beam working solo. A beam of the size I am discussing here is pretty manageable when working alone. You'll get it up there easily.
This string is way too long for me to read all of them. But, just in case no one has mentioned it. Have you considered scissor trusses? If you are desiring a cathedral ceiling without a visible ridge beam, this may be your answer. I used them for a 16x16 room addition I did last summer and it turned out nice. It also, guarantees an air gap between the ceiling insulation and roof sheathing. Allowing air to flow between the ridge and soffit vents.
Good suggestion. Thanks
Yes I have considered trusses. So far I'd like to avoid them if possible because I don't want to reduce head room, or add visual clutter. Also trusses are built for strength, not looks, so they can be kind of ragged looking (true?). These will remain exposed, and I don't want to be looking at ugly metal plates the rest of my life.
If I do ultimately go with trusses I'd probably want to build them myself out of hand picked lumber, with something like baltic birch ply gussets, so they'd look nice.
Of course... then I'd need advice on how to size them, but I'm sure I'd get a warm reception here asking truss questions ;-) (that was a joke folks, smile)
It's probably just best for me to pay a structural engineer to lay out all the options, so I can pick the best one.
Not to mention it's a shed! Trusses? I suppose some shops build STOCK trusses and that might make it a cost effective option. But custom? Does anyone know if that could really make sense for a small structure such as that discussed here?
The Professionals should know.
Actually it isn't a shed. It is a 2nd story screened porch (3 season, uninsulated) that will be accessible from the master bedroom. It may be small, and structurally simple, but it needs to be a refined and finished space, therefore my concern about the looks of trusses. Those cheese grater looking metal tie plates they routinely use on prefab trusses just wouldn't look right. Even when painted.
For the same reason I want the ridge beam to not only be strong enough, but pleasingly proportioned too. Obviously structural concerns will ultimately trump matters of asthetics, but I want to know all options so that I can pick the best.
Thanks for fighting the good fight Shaken. You can get along and start flogging that other horse now.
My mistake. Unlike the God's, they happen from time to time. LOL!
Are you an owner-builder just starting your house in the SW by any chance?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Not many truss plants stock trusses. And if they do, it's most likely in garage sizes - Like 24' trusses. So I'd venture to say that 99% of trusses are made to order.Since the OP is concerned about headroom, I wouldn't use trusses in this case either.
Time is nature's way of preventing everything from happening at once.
Space is nature's way of preventing everything from happening to you.
You will pay quite a bit more than for a beam and sawn lumber, for a truss plant to build you a little set of 8 foot scissors, but you might like the look of it all when done.
Consider it. Your lumberyard will price it up for you. Tell them the under-pitch is half of the roof pitch.
They will be easily handled solo. You can spray paint them all some color (black?) before installation, or after, before sheathing, and you will lose the plates in the shadows.
Just out of curiousity, why would you tell him to " Tell them the under-pitch is half of the roof pitch"? Wouldn't the truss designer make the bottom chord what pitch he needs?Have I been missing something working with truss guys?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
You are right about the ceiling pitch and the truss engineer. But a truss designer we all know well here on Breaktime has said (if I recall it correctly) that the "half pitch rule" for scissors trusses is what he likes to follow unless it is otherwise specified.
"Wouldn't the truss designer make the bottom chord what pitch he needs?"
Yes and no.
If you just order a scissor truss without specifying otherwise, the bottom cord pitch will most likely be half the top chord pitch. That's just what's typically done.
If you ask they'll try to do what you want, but there are limits. You have to have about 9° of separation between the top and bottom chords.
You can push that a bit. But it depends on the span of the trusses and the loading.
Given what this guy is trying to build, I don't think scissor trusses are a good idea.
Never put off until tomorrow what you can do today.
That way if you do it today and like it, you can do it again tomorrow.
Boss, thanks for the wisdom.The 9% you mention, is this a decent rule of thumb or is there a laundry list of exclusions to that rule? The reason I ask is because we use a lot of 6/12 scissor trusses. If you need 9° between the chords we could get 9-5/8" more headroom on a 24' truss.Obviously not a lot, but every little bit helps.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
"The 9% you mention, is this a decent rule of thumb or is there a laundry list of exclusions to that rule?"
It's just a rule of thumb. On shorter spans you can get down to less than that. But on longer spans or higher loading, you get into deflection problems.
On the 24' scissor truss at 6/12 that you mentioned,, you should have no problem getting 4/12 on the bottom chord. That's about 8° of difference.
I once got a print that showed a 40' scissor truss at 8/12 on the oiutside and 6/12 on the inside. And there was a note on the print that said: "Trusses must not develop horizontal deflection at walls."
That's only about 7° of separation, and is not within the realm of possibility. Not to mention that ANY scissor truss will have some horizontal deflection.
Those who watch time never see it.
"Not to mention that ANY scissor truss will have some horizontal deflection."Boss, are you saying that if I used scissor trusses on a building that is 40' wide by 300' long with no interior partitions, pilasters, or any other means of resisting that outward thrust that my walls would be pushed out at the top plates by the trusses deflecting?I always thought that scissors were designed to eliminate this. Am I thinking incorrectly?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
"are you saying that if I used scissor trusses on a building that is 40' wide...with no interior partitions, pilasters, or any other means of resisting that outward thrust that my walls would be pushed out at the top plates by the trusses deflecting?"
Yup.
Everything deflects under pressure. Once the trusses are loaded, they will deflect some. And since they're scissor trusses, if they go down they also go out.
This typically isn't a big deal. The amount of horizontal deflection isn't enough to make any difference.
The only case where I would be concerned is where there were high pitched scissor trusses bearing on masonary walls. The higher the pitch, the more horizontal deflection. And masonary walls obviously don't have as much "give" as wood walls.
I've always been a dreamer, spend my life running around. But it's so hard to change... [Eagles]
Boss:
>>
"are you saying that if I used scissors trusses on a building that is 40' wide...with no interior partitions, pilasters, or any other means of resisting that outward thrust that my walls would be pushed out at the top plates by the trusses deflecting?"
Yup.
Everything deflects under pressure. Once the trusses are loaded, they will deflect some. And since they're scissors trusses, if they go down they also go out.
This typically isn't a big deal. The amount of horizontal deflection isn't enough to make any difference. <<
Many of the truss packages I have had installed did not require the use of hurricane clips (although I almost always get the framers to install them anyway). Based on the above quote, would you say that the use or requirement of hurricane clips on scissors trusses is either more necessary or more prevalent?
"Trusses must not develop horizontal deflection at walls."Whuzzat mean, Boss?....if I go up & walk on the roof it ain't 'lowed ta bounce?
"Whuzzat mean, Boss?....if I go up & walk on the roof it ain't 'lowed ta bounce?"
I guess so. The archy apparently thought by making some magical pronuncement like that he could somehow keep the trusses from deflecting.
Might as well tell the sun not to shine.
How can a president not be an actor?" [Ronald Regan, when asked "How could an actor become president?"]
Don't feed him DP, he'll get more crazed if you ignore him.
Meanwhile I'm off to brawl in the Tavern with the twin brother of Shaken. I'm starting to think they might be the same guy.