Replies

1. 
   Guest_ | Mar 03, 1999 02:35am | #1

   *
   Bob,

   Send the builder a letter from your attorney and tell him next you're talking to his favorite realtor, and have somone change the vents to ones that are baffled and take him to small claims court...call your insurance man for damages...

   It's stupid in this day and age to expect a house not to keep the snow on the outside. Look at your contract...does it say you will have to shovel the attic each winter?

   Jack : )

1. 
   Guest_ | Mar 10, 1999 08:16am | #2

   *I'm with Jack all the way.Dumbest answer ever given for poor product applications.

1. 
   Guest_ | Mar 11, 1999 10:38am | #3

   *Although I agree in concept with ventless/dense fill insulation techniques (from an engineering perspective, they do make sense), there are ways to make ridge vents work properly. However, I'm not sure any of the current manufacturers have carried the concept to the logical extreme. I agree with you w.r.t. the original post: if we wanted water in the attic, we'd leave the roof off. But I digress. Moisture flow is not neccessarily a two-way street. There are ways of restricting moisture flows in one direction, but not the other. Fabrics such as Gore-Tex come to mind. Although such fabrics (and, no, I have not even a remote connection to the producers) deal with gaseous moisture rather than liquid or solid (rain & snow), the concept should be applicable. You can allow air to pass, without admitting precipitation, provided the vents are suitably located and shaped. Remember, water does not run uphill, and capillary(sp?) action only works one way. Going skiing in VT in 12 hrs. I'll wave if I see you.

1. 
   Guest_ | Mar 11, 1999 05:27pm | #4

   *To elaborate on my post,Modern vents have a baffle mesh and are shaped to prevent water and snow from blowing in.Contrary to popular belief, water does flow uphill. During a rainstorm, the difference in pressure from one side of the house versus the other side coupled with the driving force of the wind, will cause water to leak up. The other example is when you have a 4 foot buildup of snow in some of those elaborate roof combinations and you have melting. water will seep up almost 3 feet from the pressure.All of you have enough experience to know how much fun it can be to find a leak in an enclosed building. The hole can be on the opposite side of the building. Ya never know.I prefer and this is a personal observation, ridge venting with continuous fibre mesh baffle covered with a conventional shingle capping.

1. 
   Guest_ | Mar 12, 1999 10:47pm | #5

   *Gabe. From your description you are not using the Air Vent,Inc., Shingle Vent II? All the experts tell us to use a ridge/soffit vent combination. But they do not tell us that (a) not all such combinations work; (b)that the only ridge vent that works has an exterior baffle; (c) but not all ridge vents with external baffles work.Work means the ridge vent exhausts air from the attic. Do not work means the ridge vent takes in air from the outside.Nor do the experts tell us (a)where in the soffit the soffit vent is located matters; (b) the type of soffit vent is important.Given that the majority of architects, builders, homeowners are thoroughly confused by the conflicting and contradictory sales material from asttic ventilation devices manufacturers, and to avoid a costly mistake why not seal the attic floor, beef up the attic insulation with cellulose and forget the venting. GeneL.

2. 
   Guest_ | Mar 12, 1999 11:55pm | #6

   *Because that would be dumb.You answered your own question when you acknowledged that not one application works for all.Quiet possibly, your scenario, may work in some parts of the world, probably not in mine.Whenever I look over a new design, I have to take everything into account to determine the type of venting or combinations, and the best positions.It would be nice if 1 size would fit all but that's not the real world.

3. 
   Guest_ | Mar 13, 1999 12:07am | #7

   *Gabe,I think eventually there will be a standard way to handle weatherization issues and I think Gene and Fred L are much closer to understanding and being a part of this "movement" than most realize. All we need is for someone to discover how to make money off the "new universal way" and it will take off like a rocket.Venting is the most misunderstood "armchair" technology in home building. It's overhyped, overapplied, and overdemanded.J

4. 
   Guest_ | Mar 13, 1999 01:32am | #8

   *Hard to say Jack,In the province of Ontario, we have a standard tourist information building that was designed to be modern and energy efficient.With the exception of 1, they are very efficient.Now remember, this is essentially the same drawing that was used for all of them.1 of them leaks like a sieve with condensation.The design was fine, except that the sloped roof was facing west and from about 11 til sundown was exposed to direct sun. You can cook eggs on this roof from spring to fall.Because the design didn't allow for air between the outer skin, the insulation and the inner skin, the thermal bridges in the construction caused condensation to form on the inside of the inner skin and drip down through the tiny ventilation holes in the skin.This was at the front desk area, where the girls worked.All the other ones were either faced with the sun going from side to side or facing the opposite way.You're right if we had a design that could work anywhere in the world, we'd be rich, but there isn't one, and in all honesty, I don't believe that Fred and company are even close to the solution.

5. 
   Guest_ | Mar 13, 1999 02:20am | #9

   *Get off your high horse Fred, I never said anyone was dumb and quit making this a personal thing.A dumb idea does not make anyone dumb.If you believe in your invention, why don't you go and patent it, sell everything that you own to market your system and make a million dollars.But then, that would be my dumb idea.

6. 
   Guest_ | Mar 13, 1999 07:34am | #10

   *Gabe Though shalt not use Fred's name in vain. . .. in fact, here's a tip. . . don't use Fred's name at all, it's not worth the vitriol. He can only hold his jerking knee still for so long, and it's been a couple of weeks now. The time span between spasms seems to be decreasing exponentially. Gene I think the rest of us would like you to continue youri civil debate with Gabe.

7. 
   Guest_ | Mar 13, 1999 08:38am | #11

   *Gabe,Your booths all having trouble for different reasons proves my point totally and I think does little for yours...My point is b basic science applied could and will yield a system that works even for all your booths...And that system will mean condensation on metal roofing and all other "events" will be accounted for...Not left to carpenters and "headscratching" when "the girl" calls the "tenth" time for having to sit in an "inside rainstorm."b It can be done even if I have to be the one to do it...But someone soon will put a handle on this.The end is near, in the weatherization mysteries saga,J

8. 
   Guest_ | Mar 13, 1999 08:50am | #12

   *

   Is this a private free-for-all or can anyone make a fool of himself here? If so, were do I buy my ticket!

   Joseph FuscoView Image

9. 
   Guest_ | Mar 15, 1999 03:57am | #13

   *Sorry Fred, I have to disagree. My great grandfather was filling walls with sawdust from his mill in the mid 1800's. Worked fine then and at least some of the buildings are still standing and in use in northeastern Pennsylvania. It appears you may be giving the Canadians undeserved credit.Regards, Bill

10. 
    Guest_ | Mar 15, 1999 04:37am | #14

    *Jack in my post I said all were fine except for one.My point was that even when you think you have it all under control, along comes one to screw it up.

11. 
    Guest_ | Mar 15, 1999 04:41am | #15

    *Bill you're right when you say that some of those houses are still around. I use to belong to the volunteer fire unit in our town and had to put out a fire in a house that was insulated with sawdust throughout. Took forever to put it out and everytime you thought is was out, 10 minutes later it started again. Only damn fatality we had that year.

12. 
    Guest_ | Mar 15, 1999 04:58am | #16

    *Lets see, does that mean all fires in buildings insulated with sawdust result in fatalities? Frankly, I don't think one anecdotal incident means anything. But I do believe the lab tests which showed that walls insulated with cellulose burn slower than those insulated with fibreglass. And had that same structure you responded to been insulated with fg and burned predictably faster, do you believe that there wouldn't have been a fatality? Seems slower burning would benefit the occupant.And thanks for proving the point about drying by diffusion works - because certainly those walls had been wet over the years and were able to dry naturally.

13. 
    Guest_ | Mar 15, 1999 10:11am | #17

    *Figured you had that worked out about so. Are there bonus points for naming the individual?

14. 
    Guest_ | Mar 15, 1999 05:28pm | #18

    *Bill the remark about the fatality had nothing to do with good or bad about the use of sawdust as insulation, it was only a sad reflection on the event that caused me to examine sawdust as an insulant.Where we are is no different that where you seem to be. During the colourful history of the sawmills, the use of sawdust by builders to fill the voids in the walls is understandable. The economy of the practise is certainly admirable. I was in total agreement with you on the fact that sawdust was used extensively for insulation prior to the turn of the century.

15. 
    Guest_ | Mar 15, 1999 09:37pm | #19

    *Gabe,I'll say more correctly for you again.... Your booth having trouble proves my point totally and I think does little for yours...My point isb basic science applied could and will yield a system that works even for all your booths...And that system will mean condensation on metal roofing and all other "events" will be accounted for...Not left to carpenters and "headscratching" when "the girl" calls the "tenth" time for having to sit in an "inside rainstorm." b It can be done even if I have to be the one to do it...But someone soon will put a handle on this. The end is yet nearer, in the weatherization mysteries saga, J --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

16. 
    Guest_ | Mar 16, 1999 12:50am | #20

    *Gabe,I'm not being flippant with this question. Leaving cost out of the equation, is there a residential situation where DP Cells at the top of the thermal envelope, be that an attic floor or in the rafters, coupled with the usual air sealing of penetrations and no ventilation would not work? I don't really believe that one solution is the best response to all problems, but I'm having a hard time imagining a situation where this approach would fail, technically.Steve

17. 
    Guest_ | Mar 17, 1999 01:36am | #21

    *Gabe. I'm sorry to tell you that your response to my 3/12/99 # 4 post leaves me puzzled. What does " Because that would be dumb." mean? Is "stopping" in the ideal, but retarding in the real world, all the leaks carrying warm moist air into the attic space, and causing ice dams and rotting of framing members a DUMB thing to do? And having retarded 95 percent of that leakage obviated the need for attic ventilation is that an even dumber thing to do? Are you saying it is "smart"to allow all that leakage and attempt to solve it by ventilation? To say that "Not all combinations[of ridge/soffit vents] work." says nothing about "one application works for all." If one knows anything about attic ventilation devices one then understands that statement to mean that a correctly designed, manufactured and installed ridge vent that would otherwise work will not work with the wrong soffit vents. Again, our knowledgeable individual knows that even with a correct soffit vent: double-louvered continuous,nearly all ridge vents will not work because of the missing external baffle. And this applies to so-called internal baffles...and so-called baffle meshed vents.It is highly probable that if nothing can get in nothing can get out. Who says so?Years of testing at Miami's Construction Research Laboratory has consistently showed that ridge vents without the external baffle--and this must be of the proper dimensions--takes in quarts if not gallons of water. Let's look as some of the testing at that laboratory.The lab ran a series of tests of ridge vents with and without external baffles, to measure wind-driven rain penetration into the vents. The wind speeds were 50, 75 and 100 mph. The simulated rain rate was 8" per hour, the rate used for Dade County, Florida testing. The water spray was added to the air stream upwind of the test specimen at a rate equal to an 8"per hour rain.In one series of tests at 50 mpoh and lasting for 5 minutes, water entered the entire length of the baffless ridge vent and dropped down into the space below.The total water leakage was 1.5 quarts, or approximately 9 ounces per minute.Under the same test conditions, the ridge vent with an external baffle allowed only 0.2 ounces of water penetration in 5 minutes, 0.6 ounces at 75 mph, and 1.2 ounces at 100 mph in 5 minutes.Finally, the most recent testing (1995) at the University of Illinois confirms what years of tesing at Construction Research Laboratory proved: ridge vents without an external baffle TAKE-IN air and do not exhaust it out of the attic. Just to reinforece the point the researchers cut off the baffle on the baffled ridge vent and it reversed itself by taking in air.The University of Illinois findings have not been disproved.You won't find this information(except for Air Vent,Inc., which published the University of Illinois test results)published in almost anything written on attic vnetilation. It is in my book, _Complete_Building_Construction_ 4th Edition. Some of my posts seem to suggest that FredL and I disagree.FredL is strongly biased toward ventless attics, so am I. However, he does acknowledge some benefit from venting but believes it is iffy. I argue it is of some usefullness if done correctly, but I still insist on sealing leakage. To do otherwise is to ask vents do do something they are not designed to handle.If one has a leaky ceiling below the attic and does not seal these leaks or cannot easily seal them, attic ventilation makes sense. It make no sense and will cost a lot of cents if it is wrong attic ventilation. And wrong ventilation is mostly what we read on this Web site and others as well.The question now becomes what kind of attic vnetilation? I have argued on these and other pages the last couple of years that those of us who advocate ventless attics must--if we are to help questioners--know as much about wrong and correct attic vnetilation as we do about how not to vent.Viva la dumb no ventilation. Genel.

18. 
    Guest_ | Mar 17, 1999 01:47am | #22

    *Gene, do you actually read what I write or do you just look for something that can be twisted into the opposite of what I said.The fellow wanted to know if it was normal to shovel snow out of his attic and I said NO.If the ridge vent would have had baffles, there would not have been snow and that's what I had indicated.He didn't ask for a novel to be writen on the subject, he only wanted an answer to his question.Stop using these posts to peddle your book.

19. 
    Guest_ | Mar 17, 1999 04:01am | #23

    *Gabe,I, for one, cannot get too much data on this stuff.Gene, Thank you for your illuminating post.Steve

20. 
    Guest_ | Mar 17, 1999 04:20am | #24

    *Gabe,Gene is an absolute gentlemen.....Is it possible for you to disagree and be nice about it?????Gene...You go boy.....Please peddle your ideas here as often as you have time.And thanks so much for all the education so far.Always behind you and your rights,J

21. 
    Guest_ | Mar 17, 1999 05:00am | #25

    *Gabes a fish that can't be shot....legally anyways....The more he explains his "right" ways, the more he helps me learn what has been "standard practice" for 35 years and the more help he gives me affirming what I don't want to be part of....Go fishing if you must but stick to the issues versas the character assaults if at all possible...please...b Putting on my flame proof pajamas...J

2. 
   Bob_Allen | Mar 17, 1999 05:03am | #26

   *
   I bought a new house eight months ago and now my garage roof is leaking(I live in Iowa and we just had a snow storm with high winds). I called the builder and they told me that the wind drives the snow under the roof under the ridge vent and there is nothing they can do about it. I asked them what I was supposed to do and they told me to get up in the ceiling and scoop the snow out off the ceiling before it has a chance a to melt. This does not sound resonable to me especially since the house is new. If there is any roofers out there I would appreciate any help to solve this problem.