I hired a painter to finish the interior of a house I am doing. Guaranteed that the everything would get primed and one coat including ceilings, walls and trim within one week. I was very specific as my scheduling relied on his completion. Of course it is right before Christmas and I am traveling so he asks for his second payment even though he had not finished. I actually overpaid him because I needed some cracks fixed that was not in the agreement.
Now the deadline has come and gone and he has not answered any of the 4 (4 separate days) messages I have left and now I am beginning to worry.
The only thing going for me now is his $2,000.00 sprayer he has left on my job site. I want a portion of my second payment returned to me as I have completed the remainder of his work. Can I hold his sprayer hostage legally while I try and get some of my money back?
Does anyone have any good war stories similar or any advice they would like to share?
Thanks,
Kyle
Replies
I have personally used that type of terrorist tactic before but I sure wouldn't reccomend it. I don't know if it is legal or not and it got me into a pretty ugly conversation. Sorry to here about your situation. Hope it all works out.
Greg
I doubt seriously you can hold his equip hostage.
You didn't "overpay"....you paid for additional work.
I also doubt any magistrate would award you a decision on work you decided to finish.......when it was only 4 days late......over the holidays.
You have to give the tradesman reasonable time to finish. I'd guess that 4 days over the holidays wouldn't be reasonable.
He could also probable argue.......true or not....that since you were traveling...he wasn't able to get in touch with you.
Hindsight.......since you thought you'd be traveling while he was finishing up..and you wouldn't have been able to pay him in full...right after he finished......arranging another form of payment would have been better...than paying for incomplete work.
Sounds like the XMas spirit got ya. But I'm curious now.....was a contract signed..and was a pay schedule spelled out?
Along with a "guaranteed" time completition? If this is all on a handshake...I'd say ya just might as well pay the guy for the unfinished work...don't think a judge or magistrate will say different....
Then again.....maybe that's whay I'm not a judge or magistrate! This is all pure opinion..and just that of one person. Like Mikey says...What do I know?
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
The thing is that I have traveled and returned in those 4 days. Several times I made it clear that the electrician will be here on Monday to begin his finish. He assured me that he would be done before then. Maybe I should have been more clear on the turn of events.
Friday- The painter calls to ensure that all material is on site. I return call to confirm.
Monday- Painter arrives promptly at 10:00 am. Leaves by noon as his recently repaired sprayer is not working. Leaves sprayer at site to get it fixed (should have raised a question right there)
Tuesday- No show. No call
Wednesday- Arrives at 10:00 am with rented sprayer and sprays primer. Leaves at noon because I am 2 gallons shy of the required amount of primer he asked for. Leaves message at 12:30 pm. I return phone call at 1:00 pm and leave message that the remaining primer was indeed on site, but overlooked. Never came back that day.
Thursday- busts his butt all day. I am excited and confirm he will be done by Monday. If not, I need to relay this to electrician in case I need to make a schedule change. He assured he would be done
Friday- Another productive day. Rolling out last room, but the paint does not want to adhere to plaster (yes new plaster, but cured)walls. He tells me there is still moisture in the walls. I think something else is going on since it is latex and if the wall is damp, the paint would still adhere (correct me if I am wrong). This paint just was not sticking. He leaves Friday afternoon and says he will be there first thing Saturday morning. I tell him that I am leaving town first thing Sat. morning and hand him a check.
Saturday- Get up early and spend a few hours getting ready for my trip. Few hours took until noon before I left and no painter.
While out of town I get a call from electrician. No painter and the place is a wreck. I call painter. No return.
Monday- Still out of town. Call and leave message but no return.
Tuesday- Leave message. Nope, no return.
Xmas
Thursday- Leave message. no return. I finish cutting in all the walls and paint the remaining trim. Finally hit the room to fix the walls he started to paint and come to find out, he never primed the walls before rolling the paint. I spent and still need to complete scraping all the new paint and then sand so I can do it right. Left another message.
Granted, the steam is building and the messages are not the most pleasant, but I have remained professional every time. I feel I cannot resort to terrorist tactics but I think I can inform him not to trespass onto the property until he has contacted me. This even means not even to retrieve his property.
It is not so much that he did not finish what he started, it is the lack of professionalism in returning a simple phone call to say he could not finish. That simple message would have saved a boat load of stress and not made me look like a schmuck to other subs waiting to finish their part of the project.
Thanks again for the input.
Kyle
My experiance with painters has been so shaky (must be all those fumes they inhale all day long) that evan though come from the slop-it-on and spread it school of painting (by the way that includes me and everything else within splashing distance) that I most often paint myself (oops! paint by myself) rather than rely on someone else.
What is the reputation of the painter you selected? if it's good he will make things right one way or the other. If you hired the cheapest guy and didn't check..... Tough! you loose a worn out sprayer ain't worth the court time involved (I don't know what your city charges to file a small claim, but it's chump change compared to the hassle of actually going to court!
The painter did the exterior trim and did a great job. That is why I hired him to do the interior.
I am not sure if he will make good because he will not return my phone calls. The last message I left was to ensure he did not hurt himself or is dead. God forbid if something tragic happened, but I made it clear that if he is hurt to get well.................and get his butt back to finish my job!
I ran the sprayer today. The dumby left the thing full of paint. The only thing wrong is the gun, which is clogged. Other than that, it runs great.
Kyle
Do you really want to spend your time in court? (by the way you most likely would lose, not because your not right, but because of something called minimum damages, basically if there are no serious repercusions the courts policy has been to award damages only to the extent actual damages can be shown. since you used his equipment (I assume) to spray the rooms (or could have) the courts will probably charge him only what his hourly rate is for the unfinished portion, less court costs.
But hey, whadda I know....
Kyle - you said earlier that you left increasingly steamed messages on his machine but that you kept it "professional"? I don't mean to insult you but I have to ask - ARE you a professional? Because from the sounds of it you are not.
First things first. Before jumping online and asking a bunch of people you don't really know if it's okay to "keep" his sprayer as leverage so as to get paid back money you already paid him, how about if you find out why he hasn't called you back yet. It could be something as simple as a sudden family emergency. How about giving the guy the benefit of the doubt until you really know what's going on?
And to answer your question, no, it is absolutely not all right to keep anyone's tools. Only a lowlife would deprive someone of the equipment they use to feed their family.
From:
jim blodgett
6:57 pm
To:
KYLECONLON
(8 of 10)
25977.8 in reply to 25977.6
Kyle - you said earlier that you left increasingly steamed messages on his machine but that you kept it "professional"? I don't mean to insult you but I have to ask - ARE you a professional? Because from the sounds of it you are not.
First things first. Before jumping online and asking a bunch of people you don't really know if it's okay to "keep" his sprayer as leverage so as to get paid back money you already paid him, how about if you find out why he hasn't called you back yet. It could be something as simple as a sudden family emergency. How about giving the guy the benefit of the doubt until you really know what's going on?
And to answer your question, no, it is absolutely not all right to keep anyone's tools. Only a lowlife would deprive someone of the equipment they use to feed their family.
Jim,
I have left messages regarding his well being- after 4 phone calls later I have no way to draw any conclusions.
I am "jumping" on-line to get professional opinions before acting in any manor- are you a qualified professional? Sounds like you have had first hand experience in such a matter.
I really would not like to keep anybody's tools- but I paid money for a job not done and it was not done. I certainly can be depriving anyone from working if he hasn't even returned my calls
lesson one, dont pay until the job is finished. He took the money and ran....without his sprayer. If he wants his sprayer he will contact you. But leaving it on the job site is dangerous and only attracts pawnhockers.
Keep your jobsite clean and tool free to detract those would be crack heads from pilfering your hard earned tools that they convert to drug money.
As far as the wet plaster goes. I don't know of any you can paint while still wet. Read the mud outgassing thread. Plaster does not dry in the sense that the water evaporates. There is a chemical reaction where the the hydrogen and oxygen of water is broken down, and the plaster outgasses carbon dioxide. It is going to come out no matter what you put on it,or it's going to fall of the wall to escape. Back in the days of hot lime plasters, waiting 30 days for this process to complete was SOP. All this said, maybe there is now a plaster that can be painted wet, but as I said, none that I know of.
Don
Kyle
Show some class. After all, your the G.C.
Store the equipment. He'll call you. You arrange to have him pick it up.
That's it.
After all, it's business. Your not gonna get nasty for a sub not performing? After all, you did have money to hire an other if things didn't work out? You know, a contingincy fund? No?
See, what is eating at your shorts is not that the dude didn't perform, it's that you didn't perform. You said you had a tight schedual and it didn't happen.
Bottom line: Your fault.
That's why G.C.'s get the big bucks. We hire the right people for those special "has to happen" jobs..............And for what ever reason, that's what you failed to do. Hurts, don't it?
Take your licks and move forward. You won't sell any new work being mad. And the Owner ain't gonna give you a referal for pouting. But believe me, they will if they realize they hired a G.C. wth class.
Now, fast forward to the future, the one where you apply the lessons you've learned.
Bid it high enough. Hire the most reliable Subs you can find, especially if you won't be there to supervise. Have a back-up, someone you can call who will step-in and finish if it ain't gonna happen otherwise. And enjoy the trip.
Edited 12/26/2002 9:23:26 PM ET by Mark McDonnell
Kyle...
I don't need the daily break down....like I said...your story could be 100% truw and his side 100% wrong...I just doubt you'd get much if any thing awarded in court.
The guy might do this all the time and be banking on it.
From what I've seen...courts generally see the contractors as the money bags..and the subs as the working stiffs......and funny......but it's been mainly painters screwing GC's then either winning a settlement or not having to repay for unfinished work.....that I've heard of.
Not to say all painters are bad..but that just might be the nature of the work....the final finish product that needs more touch up and is more a matter of opinion as to what a "good" finish would be. Not like framing where the CG could say they left out framing members and the house'll fall down.
Me personally...I'd be real tempted to hold on to the equipment.....maybe even..."lose it" and have selected memory as ot it every being on site.....but then again....I sometimes don't have the "best" of ideas!
My luck...I'd try that and then I'd end up paying the painter full fare...then end up buying him all new equip and still go to jail!
On a side note......being a GC..again hind sight...ya should have known not to schedule so tight ..especially around the holidays....double especially when you knew you weren't gonna be there to babysit.
So how much are you really out....and how much did this little lesson....or reminder of what ya already knew...cost ya?
Rhetorical.......
It's the end of the year anyway....your accountant probably wants you to take a loss or two.
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
Still waiting to hear the plaster story myself. Seems to have ignored responding to that one.
Don
Me too. There's more here than what we hear..
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
kyle... life is short and a contractor's career is long.. what goes around comes around..
call him up, tell him you'd like him to come get his sprayer, tell him you hope whatever happened to mess up the schedule is behind him and leave him smiling...
he already knows he screwed up, he already knows you're p*ssed, some of the problems were beyond his control... the "missing 2 gallons & the paint falling off the "cured" walls..
in addition , you liked his exterior work.. so why aren't you giving him the benefit of the doubt ? he has a life too.. maybe his life bit him in the ####.. this is your chance to suck it in and be a bigger person...
i'm always surprised how soon the wheel turns and the person you had a chance to let off the hook will remember your act of kindness in the future..
you can be a hard #### anytime, but you usually catch more flys with honey than you do with sh*t
but hey, whadda i no ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
This happens quite often actually to "home owners ". A contractor would be holding future work over his head and this may be the case as we type. Stuff happens to home owners all the time that doesnt happen to GCs. But anyway you should handle it in a professional way and that is ;
Hire another painter to finish the work unless you or the electrician likes to paint . Give the dude his tools back and assure him you will not reccomend him [really to everyone you know]. Get a new life and move on because most painters would do just that. Hes not worth the trouble really. If you have signed contracts that puts you in small claims which is useless really. He only lacked a small amount of work and you should be happy tomorrow after you hire another painter by the hour to finish. Call every major paint store and tell the manager what happened if you want to put some hurt on him . I would just move on silently , but the option is yours.
Tim Mooney
Once a GC tells a story like that , the guy is usually done with most all contractors in town. Bad news travels like wildfire!
Edited 12/26/2002 7:03:12 PM ET by Tim Mooney
This happens quite often actually to "home owners ". A contractor would be holding future work over his head and this may be the case as we type. Stuff happens to home owners all the time that doesnt happen to GCs. But anyway you should handle it in a professional way and that is ;
Hire another painter to finish the work unless you or the electrician likes to paint . Give the dude his tools back and assure him you will not reccomend him [really to everyone you know]. Get a new life and move on because most painters would do just that. Hes not worth the trouble really. If you have signed contracts that puts you in small claims which is useless really. He only lacked a small amount of work and you should be happy tomorrow after you hire another painter by the hour to finish. Call every major paint store and tell the manager what happened if you want to put some hurt on him . I would just move on silently , but the option is yours.
Tim Mooney
Once a GC tells a story like that , the guy is usually done with most all contractors in town. Bad news travels like wildfire!
Tim,
I am a licensed contractor.
We were just talking about future work prior to my trip.
I would be glad to hire a new painter but that only screw up my project schedule. I would rather finish it myself. Being a contractor, one would know hiring another sub to come in and fix or finish another's mess will only cost twice as much.
I have a signed contract.
The time to bad mouth his work I can finish the painting.
I would finish the work my self also and be done with it . With no further ado. You could hire a painter by the hour though as after Christmas till April is their slow season .
Tim Mooney
For us, and every other contractor I know, the time from Thanksgiving to Christmas is a f-in waste. For one, deer gun season takes a week, then the holiday spirits take the rest. Unmotivated workers, wives screaming for the husbands to go shop for the kids, blah, blah, blah.....I'd just rather shut down and take my delays than try to rush something together in this time frame. When customers say things like"can this be done for Christmas?" I either figure NEXT Christmas, or explain the hard facts, that I doubt it, and I'm not spending MY Chrismas season panicked and worrying about their project being done for them. Selfish, yes, sorry.
If you want it done right and on time....do it yourself.
Today's subs are un F'N real .They lie there asses off ,Don't do what they say they will, do crap work, don't return call's Can never come to the job to go over anything, And after you basically beg them to finish your job they want a check the next day.Hell yea I'm mad I think you should sell the sprayer and when he calls looking for it dont return his call see how he like's it.There was a time not to long ago when there was'nt so much work out there and the sub's used to be great. Now there's all kinds of work and they stink.look out boy's because everything goes in cycles and it's our turn next and BUILDERS REMEMBER EVERYTHING .thats what we do !!!!!!!!! TAG.
After reading this whole sordid tale through, I come back to the same two thoughts I had at first;
Something isn't quite right here.
IF you are trying to get back at him for hurting you by hurting him back in trying to keep his broken down old POS sprayer, you are too small minded to be a big builder.
The mis-placed primer (why isn't he providing materials?) and the still uncured plaster ( I know you said it was cured but the symptoms show otherwise, how do you know it was cured - exactly how long was it? It sounds like you are on such a tight schedule that you are pushing the envelope) sound like plenty good enough reason for him to be waiting it out and the holiday plus a broken sprayer are just adding to it all, making for an impossible situation for him.
Sure, he should call back but for you to keep his sprayer is just trying to add stink to $hit. There's already enough there and you just get some on yourself.
BTW, Jim is about as professional as they come.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Piffin,
Whether I am a big builder or not is irrelevant. I don't want his old sprayer, I just wanted the job completed when promised or my money back. Is that too much to ask?
After reading this whole sordid tale through, I come back to the same two thoughts I had at first;
Something isn't quite right here. IF you are trying to get back at him for hurting you by hurting him back in trying to keep his broken down old POS sprayer, you are too small minded to be a big builder. <<
Piffin, YOU calling someone small minded? Mr. Pot meet Mr. Kettle...
And then you insult this guy who started the thread? Typical classless clown s#@t!
Is "Jim" one of your aliases?
aHole, why did you bother?
Just a dig to Piffin? If that is the best you can do then you might want to think about finding a hobby.
It seems you have an aptitude for engineering, ever think about it?
Maybe I'm missing something entertaining? I've had him on ignore.
Come to think of it, I did notice a little mutt with a pocket full of pencils and a slide rule nipping at my heels this afternoon. Hope he didn't hurt his teeth trying to bite my heel..
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
I'm with Piffin all the way. Your schedule is incredibly tight without any wiggle room and you are trying to blame the painter for it. If it was so crucial for things to go PERFECTLY you should have been on the site all day, every day. Yes, you may not have been busy all day but for the 30 min when things turned sour you would have been able to trouble shoot. That's why site supervisors/ project managers are used.
All too often GC's try to rush the painting to make up for time lost earlier in the project. If your painter is as good as you originally thought, he probably has a lot of experience with GC's and sites not being ready and and is fed up. One of my painters won't even unload his tools unless EVERYTHING is ready - no other subs and walls are dry. He's a production operation and he has no time nor budget to reload the sprayer with primer or dif color paint. The way you are running the job, you are costing him money and interupting his rythm. I know it's tempting but stop making your problems his.
As for his behavior - when he started the interior work - he may have noticed that things really were not ready to go gang busters and he went to a job that was or to a cient that was having xmass dinner and needed there dinning/ living room finished. This happens quite frequently as any tradesperson can tell you concerning the days between Thanksgiving and New Years. This does not excuse his behavior but it is what it is.
If you are supplying the paint, it is YOUR responsibility that it is all grouped together AND its location made clear to the sub.
As for holding on to the tools - NO you are not legaly able to either hold them for ransom or as collateral nor prohibit him from entering the site in order to retreive them. All he would have to do is get a cop to accompany him onto the site and it would be noted against you.
One last thing I just realized when proof reading. You 1) gave him a set period of time to do his job, 2) gave him additional work to do, 3) you then did more work (the wet plaster) that he had to contend with, 4) told him that the limited time frame was becuase the electrician was coming. How would you feel if someone dumped on you like this?
If this is your biggest problem on the job site CONGRATULATIONS!. It seems like everything is going quite well.
I wouldn't recomend keeping his equipment, Big legal troubles are sure to follow. Next time be sure to have a signed contracted spelling out every detail, from job completion to payment schedule. Sometimes that seems like a hasle for small jobs but it is worth it when a sub tries to skip out on you. Even include a backcharge clause for not completing on time. Hope everything works out.
I'm still waiting to hear about the plaster.
Don
OK, Here is the outcome.
Before I conclude, please remember that all I was trying to do is 1. get in touch with my painter, and 2. reimbursed for work he did not perform. I did not want his sprayer and he told me that he would be finished on a particular date. I did not schedule too closely with any other sub. When he began his portion of the project I specifically asked him when he would be completed. He replied with a date. What other information can I rely on other than the sub's word? I only started to begin the worst case scenario situations that might occur because of lack of communication.
The condition of the plaster really has no reference to my original question. I only added this in my second post was only to elaborate the path of the story.
Painter called this morning. His girlfriend gave him a trip for his Christmas present. To where, I have no clue. His words were that he felt there was no rush and that he was no holding up the electrician. I find that response ridiculous and pathetic.
Even though I finished most of his work, I have let him come back and complete the rest. He is now busting his hump to get it done for fear of losing future work from me. This was a heck of a lot easier than trying to get some of my money back.
What have I learned? I have learned that being verbal in understanding is not good enough and I will further revise my contract to specify length to complete clause.
The painter has learned that all of this stress and BS could have been avoided with one simple phone call to keep me informed. A simple call to say " Hey, I can't finish when I said I would and will complete on such a date" It would have saved me the time spent asking this forum and me completing his work.
Communication is key! If people would only realize that being up front and honest is so much easier than avoiding a situation. People hate giving bad news but without giving any news only creates a worst situation than needed.
I want to thank everyone for their responses (even the implication that I might be a lowlife or a homeowner). I have always believed there are two sides to every story and so it seems there are others out there too. I hope people realize that most experience is through trial and error, but when you have a tool as valuable as this board, sometimes hearing other war stories helps in expediting the experience along.
Happy New Year to all
Kyle
Yes, most problems can be remedied by clear communication.
But there are three sides to every story. The one guys side, the other guys side, and the right side. Proper communication spelled out in verbal and written details is the closest way to get to the right side....sitting in his nowhereland.
"I find that response ridiculous and pathetic."
This speaks worlds about your attitude toward those who work for you. You go on for days on end, in your own words, getting a bit more nasty with each call... expecting, demanding an answer. And when given the answer, your reaction is to label it pathetic and ridiculous.
Perhaps your painter had already seen your interpretation of "communication", and had no wish to partake of same during his holiday season ?
I know that I would not be rushing to "communicate" with you, if I knew I could expect your particular brand of "communication" in return...Don't bogart the Ghost
Quittin' Time
You are obviously a subcontractor
Regardless, here's what I know. Any date he gave must be prefaced with his starting date being ready for him. If the place isn't, you can't hold that against him. You can't paint wet plaster, so the place wasn't ready. Also, if you're buying the materials, you have to eat any mixups. If he'd have bought them, then there would have been no problem. If he was short, he would have gone and bought it. By what happened, you apparantly didn't give him that go ahead to follow up after you.
Don
Given everything written and everything be known (including the plaster) to the painter, his answer was that he would be completed by the date he had promised.
I wish I can retract that there was a problem with the plaster. The plaster is irrelevant to my situation and initial questions asked. I was only looking for answers based on my side of the story and the situation given.
From the previous post. My messages become stronger as they were not returned by the painter. One can remain professional and express concerns based on the facts at hand, whether the message is nasty or not.
I have said my thank you's to all and this is my last post. Hopefully I will not be too gun shy for future posts.
Kyle
"You are obviously a subcontractor"
Thank you for further proving my point. I am not a subcontractor. For all the difference that makes. It does seem to make a difference to you, though. Why ? That would automaticaly make my response, "ridiculous and pathetic" ? Subcontractors are sub-human in your eyes ? That does seem to be your inference. Throughout this thread, as a matter of fact.
Again, your brand of "communication" is anyone else's idea of trying to communicate and being pushed and insulted in return. You have no one to blame for your problems but yourself.
...
The plaster has EVERY relevance to your situation. You cannot paint wet plaster. If you cannot even see the relevance in that one small point, what hope is there that you ever do see anything but your own selfish interest ?
Selfish interest is good to a point. It is what helps us to succeed in business. But when selfish interest becomes exclusive of anything else, including basic facts, and basic humane treatment of others... then it becomes nothing more than the ground for strife and battle. A huge hindrance to your business.
...
You want only answers based on your own side of the story. Well, I want a billion dollars in the bank and a plethora of young women ready to grant my every wish. Neither of those are going to happen. You wanted to be petted and told you are right. You got reality. If that sticks in your craw, you are in the wrong place.
...
Your messages were obviously rasping in the first place. No, there is no way to remain professional, if your message is nasty. Professional and nasty are contradictory of each other.
As stated earlier, communication IS the key. But what you are putting forth as communication is anathema to the real thing. As long as you are going to have that approach, you will only continue to have problems. You are only fooling yourself. And you are doing more harm to yourself than to anyone else.
...
If all of your posts are going to be self-serving and contentious, then it will not hurt my feelings a bit if you become too "gun-shy" to post again. Nor, I have a hunch, the feelings of most here.
Gotta disagree on one point. I've worked for and known a lot of contractors and sub-contractors that are about as rude, mean and nasty as they come. Funny thing is, They make their point once, and the next time you see em, it's like it never happend. Getting nasty is fine, staying nasty is stupid.
Don
Reminds me of a time:
About ten years ago I was hired to build a stone fireplace. The wife ( a woman who had gotten what she wanted for years and was obviuosly accustomed to it) wanted the stone to be a specific violet color. I explained to her that the violet color came from splitting that particular granite on a specific grain line. She said that's what she wanted. I said, it's not like you can just call the quarry and say , Hey, I want 10 tons of violet stone. The normal color is gray/black. And we all know that the quarry guys aren't going to take the time to split ten tons of violet stone. Their money is in time/tons of stone sent out. The best I could do (I told the wife) was that when the quarry guys split the stone, if they came across a violet piece, they could put it aside for us. But I told her, this could take quit a while to get 10 tons.
She says that's ok. Thats what I want.
So,
I bring staging in, build the block facade, firebox, and block chimney outside.
In the meantime , quarry calls up and says, hey, we have a couple ton ready for ya.
Great. Go pick up stone, and start doing the veneer work.
Use up all the stone, now I'm in a holding pattern.
Call the quarry, touch base with homeowner.
Call the quarry, keep in touch with the homeowner.
Few weeks go by and I get a certified letter from the homeowner barring me from the premises because I had failed to follow my contract. BTW, the contract had no start/finish date, and did have mention of violet stone problem.
I say, the he## with this s##t, I call local police, explain whats going on, tell them I would like to go pick up my equipment on site. They say, go ahead and get it.
I went to the site and start loading my stuff and the wife comes by. She says, hey, you're not supposed to be here. I say, I won't be here long, just getting my equipment. She says, I'm going to have my gc (my good friend, btw) call the police. I say, go ahead, I've already talked to them.
So the gc calls the police. I say, it's ok man, you gotta do your job. I get arrested for trespassing. (huh? I talked the police already? they said come get my stuff. what the f##k?)
Bottom line is , I got my stuff off of the jobsite, the charges were dismissed in court (still I had to miss a days work to go to court), and the chimney (I found out later) was finished in brick.
What's up with that?
How would you guys have handled that?
And yes, I do know that there are 2 sides to every story. I have stated mine as truthfully as I could.
And the gc, my good friend?
We still go fishing together.
Business is business.
Rod
AgreedDon't bogart the Ghost
Quittin' Time
"I find that response ridiculous and pathetic."
"Hey dude, my girlfriend gave me a trip (5 hits of blotter acid, perhaps?) for Christmas, and I toootally spaced out calling you for four days to tell you that I won't be finishing your paint job when I told you I would. Heh, heh, that wasn't a problem, was it? It was? Whoooa, bummer dude!" (I'm speculating, of course.)
On what planet does that NOT qualify as "ridiculous and pathetic," not to mention unprofessional and irresponsible? Gee, is it really asking too much of someone old enough to vote, drive and pay taxes to call their employer to work out the problems of the job and, oh by the way, would you mind if I didn't show up for the next four days?
I've been following this thread from the start and one thing strikes me- the attitude by some that virtually any failure to perform on the part of any sub is somehow always the fault of the gc (you scheduled too tight, you didn't make sure the walls were dry- helloo, where are the plaster subs and what did they promise?- the primer wasn't in plain sight with a blaze orange sign on it, etc, etc, etc). And/or it's always the responsibility of the gc to suck it up and make everybody happy again no matter who was at fault. Since when are subs to be treated as children, or even pets, when it comes to professional standards and expectations? Any time a sub screws up it's automatically due to a breakdown in adult supervision? A gc speaking harshly because he's p i s s e d off because (yet another) sub has let him down is legitimate cause for packing up your tools (toys) and going home until the big meany apologizes?
GROW UP!!!
btw- my father owned a small general contracting biz for over forty years and I worked off and on for him for about 7 years. I've seen and heard it all. Sub-induced stress was no small part of the reason my brother and I showed no interest in taking over the company.
m
Do you feel better now?
In my experience I find that the general contractor has an unrealistic schedule, after all the faster he gets the job done the faster he gets his money. Time and time again I am constantly wastng my time trying to keep GC's happy. I've given up!!! When I'm called for a job I give them my schedule on when I can complete the project, taking in consideration available man power, time of year, ect. and thats that. Take it or leave it. Life's to short to try to make everybody happy. Remember "SAFETY FIRST".
Mitch,
You have really missed the point. The biggest job of a GC in my estimation is scheduling. If you have wet plaster, and are waiting on a painter, somethings amiss, and it ain't the painter!
The point of all this comes down to two things. First, no, don't keep the sprayer, and second, don't get your panties in a bunch. No doubt the painter screwed up also, but he wasn't here asking for help now was he? A GC that lets this little crap run his thoughts, emotions and affairs in general is not long for this business. What you read here is the "other side" this GC has got to come to terms with. More then likely the answers from most were motivated by--Been there, done that! The painters a dead issue, apparantly getting over it is not.
Don
Hey Mitch, don't forget that we are only getting one side of this story from the GC and that he has made somne some statements that leave room to doubt whether everything he says is as he presents it. No doubt the painter should have called but every time he shows up, he is working his hump oiff and getting a lot done so it's obvious he's not a total loser either. Four days late over the holidays when there are job problems to delay it is not unreasonable at all. We should all be so lucky. These are small bumps in the overall scheme of things and not worth trying to get back at a guy for. That revenge type attitude is the tone that clued me in the the sort of relationship this GC creates.
I can easily speculate the other side of the conversation too!
GC "I need this finished by ___. Think you can do it by then?"
Painter guy, "well, I suppose I might if this and that comes together for you. I'll need you to be sure the material is all right here and I'll save that wet plastered room for last to give it a few more days before I try it but we'll have to watch out for that one."
GC "Don't worry about that! I've had painting done before over it this quick and come out OK {neglecting to mention that it was in a warm dry summer instead of a cool damp winter with propane heat or something} so you just go right ahead and start painting, I'll have everything out of your way so I don't slow you down because BTW, I'm scheduling the electrician to be in here finishing right behind you."
Painter guy "Oh No! Those guys always get in my way and keep leaving stuff around for me to trip over and have to move, man. It slows me down, but I can still try to make your deadline if everything works out"
GC "I know you can do it. They won't get in the way and I just know that plaster will be alright"
Painter guy "Shruggs shoulders - Whatever...".
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Edited 12/29/2002 12:35:12 PM ET by piffin
Exactly, but don't forget the GC's line: "and I'LL be away for 4 or 5 days while you're painting ..." (read: so any problems you encounter, they are YOUR responsibility but I won't be paying you anything additional for it. Oh, BTW answer the phone and take messages.)
Painter: Yeah, right.
to QTRMEG- yes, thank you for asking.
to Safety Boss- it sounds like you are one of the many responsible, professional subs that tend not to be a PITA for your gc's and i've no doubt the majority of them appreciate that fact and reciprocate in kind. you are not afraid to tell a gc the truth about how long a job will likely take as opposed to telling him what you think he wants to hear. remember, gc's not only depend on subs to do the work, but also for fairly accurate estimates of how long it will take, after all, it's the subs' job to know.
to Don C.- not at all, I'm just saying that both sides must adhere to reasonable standards of professional conduct and, in this particular case, blowing off the boss for four days was unacceptable.
to piffin- i haven't forgot that at all- i was taking issue with the gang that immediately assumed that it simply MUST have been the fault of the gc because subs are, to a man, trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent. and EVERYBODY KNOWS that all gc's are money-grubbing, power-hungry, lying, incompetent scum.
happy new year to all!
m
Believe me, if the painter had come here I'd have been honest with himher also. What the hell are you complying with dates for when the plaster is wet? If the GC is away, why the hell didn't you make arrangements for possible problems like a shortage of paint, or where it's at. How the hell can a broken down sprayer get fixed sitting on the job site for 4 days, etc, etc, etc. The painter ain't here though.
Don
No one ASSUMED it was the GC's fault. Where did you get this?
The GC stated that he had some plasterwork done which was not dry yet. (Read: it must have been compound work. Plaster work dries in less than a day. He should also have called it so). Then he asked the painter to do some extra work. Then he left for 4-5 days (his words, not mine) without leaving a representative (supervision) on site. Then the paint HE provided was not together. His post was only serving as a request for absolution.
The GC got what he deserved - lack of professionalism, (from his sub - But isn't that the lead he offered?) and a reality check (from BT).
'Nuf said!
Water over the bridge, next?
Before the keys are turned over there will be other issues.
"Plaster work dries in less then a day."
That depends on the plaster. But even Diamond or Imperial require a sealer before painting. No mention of that along with the painting. Proceed with working with plaster with these assumptions and you'll get burned. I know plenty of plasterers still using gauged lime plasters built from puttys. Plenty of stuccos require much more then a day also. Long, long list here.
Don
I don't think that anybody assumed that based on a presumption that all GCs are that way. I actually think that we've been very obvious in stating that it was this one who showed certain signs of being that way via his own responses, statements and actions.
I'm the guy in charge here too and I've got a plumber and electrician holding me up right now so I thoroughly understand his side but I know that life is too short to make it any worse by hopping up and down with a red face..
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
You cannot paint wet plaster. Tell that to Michaelangelo :)
Hmmm, Mick did Buon Frescos mostly but some Secco. Comparing that to painting is like calling a doctor a plasterer because they puts casts on to heal broken bones. Really big difference, and you can only plaster what you are going to paint at one time. And the painting is really the insertion of pigments into the plaster, not a coating that sits on top of the plaster. Beyond that, the hot lime plasters used in Fresco's are not anything like what is used to plaster residential walls. I assume your point was humor, but its apples to oranges.
Don
Edited 12/28/2002 9:16:17 AM ET by Don C.
Jeff& Piffen,
I had to laugh when I read your remarks about roofers not calling! In my experience it's usually the other way around----the customer doesn't make the proper call to the roofer.
Perfect example-----
Back in november I recieved a call ( at 10:30 at night)from a prospective customer about a roof that needed done quickly. Since I was sound asleep at 10:30 pm.,I called the customer back at 7:30 am--- as asked by the customer.I told the customer I was finishing a critical slate roof/ rubber roof intersection but would be able to go look at his project in the late morning or early afternoon and would fax him a proposal at that time. At 11:30 am( that's 4 hours after recieving the pertinent info BTW) I arrive at the project house to see 5 guys up on the roof with work well under way.Funny how this customer couldn't be bothered to call me and save me 1 1/2 hours out of my very busy day to tell me he had already handled the problem.
I don't mind so much spending time to estimate a job---and then not getting the job,--------but I DO mind waisting time estimating a job SOMEONE ELSE is already doing!
this type of thing happens many times each year.
How about the ones where the general assumes that since you are a low life roofing sub, you will lie to him and show up two weeks late to do the job so he acts pre-emptively by telling you that the job is ready to shingle. You show up with shingles and crew to find that only half the sheathing is on the trusses and no facia or trim...why isn't it roofed yet?
Not much different from having to paint uncured plaster with primer that isn't there and still meet a scehdule....
.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Edited 12/28/2002 12:16:33 PM ET by piffin
Yeah, it was kinda of a humorus, smarta$$ answer, but also partly true. Well, it was correct to the extent of my plastering and painting knowledge, anyway :) Appreciate the little bit of information, though.
2 words.....
Paint Fumes!
Ya can't expect a painter to remember to call....that'd be like expecting a roofer to call..........
engineers....there's another story...they never stop calling......
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
Just read this whole thread. What a hoot! Almost reminds me of the old days.
Luka, Don, Piffin, et.al.,ya'll did good. Made my day.
Are you even sure it is his sprayer? Might actually be a rental unit or borrowed from a friend (ex?).
I was in HD last night behind a woman who was buying about 10 gallons of interior paint. being Oregon and it has been pouring every day, i bet her interior walls will be dry in about may, unless she just cranks the heat and leaves for a couple of weeks. ;-)
I'm still enjoying the bit about the plaster,
"Don't bother me about the facts, they have no bearing on this case...."
LMAO.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Hey there, what's this about roofers?
LOL I know what you mean
Luka - You didn't leave much to be said. I remember a couple of contractors like this with the subs are sub human attitude. I bet he doesn't know you are an independent rural gentleman! It's obvious he missed the gentleman part..
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius