I’d be interested to hear your stories regarding how far you’ll go to salvage your own mistakes before just biting the bullet and starting over.
I recently did a large master bath with 2×2 tile on the floor. The clients need wheelchair access and it was very important to them to have the bedroom hardwood floor meet the bathroom tile with no level change at all. As GC, I put the tile underlayment down myself and had my tile guy come in to lay and grout the tile floor.
I met him at the site one morning to get him started, then took off to do something else. Fortunately, I was passing by the site again a few hours later and stopped in just in case. A good thing I did, because the tile was coming out a good 3/16 lower than the hardwood. He had only put down about 15 square feet so far, so it was really no biggie to pull up what he’d done (especially since the mortar wasn’t hard yet), and float the entire floor with another 3/16 of mortar. It cost me about 4 hours and $50 worth of materials and the clients were never the wiser.
The thing that struck me though, was how resistant my tile guy was to ripping out his tile job. He was furiously proposing all sorts of kludges to minimize or hide the level change, all of which would have taken hours and still wouldn’t really fix the problem. I told him I’d pay him for his wasted time that morning, plus a little extra for having to come back the next day to do the job. It didn’t matter. He was just so emotionally invested in those tiles he’d put down (correctly installed – the underlayment was my screwup) that he wanted to avoid ripping them out at almost any cost. Wierd. He did come back the next day and the floor came out great. He later admitted that starting over was the right thing to do.
Do any of you guys ever have a problem letting go like that? Have you ever seen someone try to fix or hide a mistake at twice the cost and effort of just ripping it out and doing it over?
Replies
hey Doug,
I still have'nt finished a bay window install because my boss made me take out the one I installed first, then was told to remove it because we needed it for another customer. there is just nothing that upsets me more than re-doing something I've already done. Now doing something the right way is always important to me and I'musually the first to suggest scrapping a project thats not working, and its always the guy whos doin it that tries to convince us he can make it work and sometimes letting him try is the highlite of my day!
All the time.
I have to remind myself that the customer is right sometimes.
just last week, they came by and announced that they were thinking about a change, asking if it would cost any money...
My answer was quick, of course. Any change always costs money. ( I had already told them the same thing in the planning stages) Then I followed up with, "let me sit down to consider this and I'll figure out if it can be done."
The next morning, I had drawings for what they were considering and it was even better than the original plan and very little cost to implement.
But the guy haad seen a flash in my eyes as I gave him the first answer. Laughing, he told me later that he was sure that I would not even try to come up with a solution based on the expression on my face at the mention of the word "change"
It all worked out well, but when i was younger, I didn't always adapt so well. Anybody who takes pride in their work will have some emotional investment.
I have rebuilt a back service stair for one customer four times ( I think - you tend to lose count after awhile) and I told hiom the last time that it was indeed the LAST TIME.
Excellence is its own reward!
How come the stair needed to be rebuilt so many times? Client changed his mind, or it kept coming out wrong?
Changing his mind about the floorplan he wanted in the rooms acessed near the top of it.
First time he was trying to satisfy his housekeeper and his own ideas of layout as a single bachelor
Second time, he was redoing the kitchen area to satisfy his new wife.
Third time, he was still trying to satisfy his wife as she tryed to figure out what she really wanted
Fourth time, we finished off the basement below into a 'playroom' for the kids instead of just a laundry and utility room..
Excellence is its own reward!
Anybody who takes pride in their work will have some emotional investment. Thank You! I'll take that as a compliment. I have to admit to Doug I have a tough time letting go.
For some of us, tearing out something we just did seems inherently distasteful, but knowing when to do it may be a sign of a true professional. I still remember that lesson from reading "The Well Built House" by Jim Locke, one of the builders featured in Tracy Kidder's "House."
Al Mollitor, Sharon MA
Al-
I guess I can see what you mean - especially since it wasn't the tile guy who screwed up. Maybe if I was in his shoes I'd be a little resistant myself.
If the owner came and told me to rip out the vanity cabinets and baseboard because he'd forgotten to tell me he wanted maple instead of oak - hmmm.. I might argue for a minute or two.
Great pair of books.
Should "The Well Built House" be required reading for builders??Jake Gulick
[email protected]
CarriageHouse Design
Black Rock, CT
yes , ive had to rip up a few jobs like that , a ceramic floor counter to be exact.i was working with my partner and had been laying tiles one morning ,I had usually been the one to lay them and he would be the one to frame up the walls build the stairs etc and he had seen me lay them, well he decided to help me lay them to hurry up the job. and wouldnt you know it the area he had been doing wasnt going to line up right and he didnt want to rip them up because they were going to be under a washer and dryer in a corner of a bathroom..and I chose to rip them up and realine them as i figured one day there might not be a washer and dryer there . and i didnt want the house sold one day and somone to come along and see this kind of work .I am happy that we fixed it even if he didnt think it needed to be done.because its done and done right and looked great ive found some people dont step back enough to look at there work because if they did there might be a lot more jobs done over before its too late. dogboy
Edited 1/11/2004 10:36:23 PM ET by dogboy
If you told him the two levels were to be the same, then he shouldn't have gotten that far. I always discuss the actual finished level with my tile guy long before he even gives me a quote. If he knew and continued anyway, tough nuts on him. Rip it out do it right, and stop whining. (I'm not this tough in real life, I would say it nicely!)
If you didn't discuss it, then he has a right to be paid for his extra time, and if he can't make it the next day, oh well.......the job will run late, I guess.
How far do I go? Well, if I put it down and had been told about the level issue, I would have called you when I discovered the issue. If I had forgoten, I would have ripped it up right away when you called me on it, apologised, and worked late to get it right. Re-reading your post, it appears that he wasn't awre of the issue. If I were him, I would offer to stay late if I could, but I would expect you to be fair and reimburse me. I might wisecrack that it was too bad to pull up well laid tiles, but they'd be up in no time. Part of pride in work is having it meet specs.
When the job isn't right, the observer doesn't know where the source of the problem is, just that the problem exists.
Jake Gulick
[email protected]
CarriageHouse Design
Black Rock, CT
Edited 1/11/2004 10:51:01 PM ET by LATEAPEX911
Jake-
I did not discuss the level issue with him. Mistake number two, I guess. I just assumed that I had figured out the right height for the underlayment and the tile would automatically come out right.
I did pay him extra for the wasted work. Like I said, I have no complaint with the tile guy at all - I was just surprised how hard he clung to his 15 sq ft (out of 90) of tile.
All in all a pretty inexpensive learning experience for me.
Oops...that's what Iget for a rushed reading! See my edited comments based on my re-read.Jake Gulick
[email protected]
CarriageHouse Design
Black Rock, CT
I'm a fanatic. I'll work on anything until it's damn near perfect, even stuff that's hidden in the wall or the crawl space. Not sure if that's a good or bad thing. In the case of your tile I would have ripped out the whole floor if necessary, since I'm not sure how I'd face a client and say "I told you it'd be flush but it's not and I don't want to change it". Conversations like that cost you your credibility right away.
Something similar to you DougR.... 3 1/4" Oak with a Walnut inlay that followed around the perimeter of the tile at the front door. I left the installer there for the morning after getting him started and when I came back he was busy on the tablesaw cutting wedges to try to slide into the gaps that were created by a fast crappy job. Took me 2.5 hours to rip it out and reinstall it myself (without gap filling wedges).
The problems didn't end there though. When he was drum sanding an original oak floor in the main house and I noticed that he must have had a problem with the belt because it left a shiny strip on every pass. I was lucky to catch him at this point because when I pointed out the problem his response was that it would disappear once the stain and finish was put on. It has to be because of the sanding sealer fumes. Because this gave me a chance to fire him without the homeowner seeing either messes major problems were avoided. To finish that day I had to go and rent a square finish floor sander to make it right. Unlike you I can't say that I kept in touch with this installer. I will forgive and give second chances, just as I hope that I will be given if there is a problem however this was difficult and hard to forget.
Scott T
This is a problem that never goes away. After all how many times have we fixed or glossed over a minor problem that in no way affected the final quality of the product? What we don't see is that often dealing with a screw up immediately will save us time and emotional energy in the long run. Maybe I am learning this slowly in my old age. I can tell you it is a lot harder to correct those mistakes when the temperature is -0 F.
When we first started out 25 years ago, we were at the end of a large basement finish job. My partner built a beautiful bar made out of leftover flooring and solid wood panelling from the main house. We got a call at 6:30 am on a Sunday morning from the customer complaining that the bar was not what she wanted and we had to redo it. She presumably would have paid for this. My partner politely told her no and we were finished on that job. No big deal for us and our plumber still has the bar in his basement. I can't help but think that twenty five years later we would have rebuilt the bar at least twice. But then again we are awake now at 6:30 on a Sunday not nursing a headache.
yes ..
and yes.
sometimes hard to listen to yourself...
most always glad in the end that ya did.
Usually I gotta take a fresh air break first ...
to get used to the idea.
Then ... if it ain't near-perfect ... tear it out and start again.
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
DIY wiring skills a bit rusty...thought I'd take a 'couple of hours X-mas eve day to get started, extending an old circuit. Kind of in a hurry but got the first part re-wired anyway and then off to family and friends.
Went back two days later, looked at the work, and thought "who wired this?" Took two more days of stewing before I bit the bullet, tore out and re-did the right way. Had to add a junction box though.
Some architects seem to be enamored of their designs.
It really hurt the one's feelings that drew this house after the plans we already had and added a bunch of fancy stuff like tile up walls to frame certain pieces of furniture and extra little tile details in the walls, on the baseboards and along the bottom of cabinets, etc.
All very pretty, to look at once, but not practical to live with every day or wanting to change the furniture or other around.
He also made the house considerably larger than necessary or wanted and promised changes on all that before the final plans but didn't change anything and submitted them like that for bids. I could have strangled him but didn't, he really loved his ideas, but am using other plans now. His designs would have made a very pretty house to take pictures of, but not for us to live in.
Somewhere between modernism and post modernism premadonaism got hold of this profession. Premadonas seem to draw a lot of stuff that never gets built - Somebody needs to straighten all those clients out! :-)>Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
fortunately lots of the really wacko stuff exists only on paper... and the most harm it can cause is a paper cut.
Personally, I like the term talkitecture - because there seem to be many many talkitects and fewer and fewer architects.
A pre-Madonna? Would a post-Madonna be, say, Britney Spears???
I don't think so. I'm pretty sure a post Madonna would be wrought iron, thoroughly hand worked, twisted and topped with a pair of prominent finials.Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
Allmost the same deal.... I can to a fault do most things from gradework & finishing concrete/mechanical/plumbing/electrical/fab welding/ frame/drywall plaster finishout/asphalt&stripe... comes from be'n poor and like'n all tools & equipment & being mechanical enough that i have yet to find broken equipment i couldn't rebuild or fix usually cheaper than renting it once.... so i have more equipment and tools than most rental yards
I can do most of these things pretty well and really well if ...like anything i study up and take my time... I am by no means a master of any trade and don't have the mindset to do the same thing day in and day out.... But I expect more from someone i hire to do a job that is in that trade than i do from myself...
if i knew nothing about the trade maybe i'd accept lesser quality work?
do i accept a lesser quality when i do it because i know how good it has to be and have run into the problems and fixed them the best i could?
I hate knowing more about a guys trade than he does... i prefer to watch and learn and be amazed than watch and know i know more than the guy doing it...
I'm sure i'll get blasted from trade guys who hate to work for "know it all" contractors... but i rarely say much to the guys working... other than point out how i'd like something done and the quality i'd like... if that doesn't do it... i pay them for the full day and tell them to go home... i have worked with guys for a few days try'n to get their work up to my standards but it's all but never worked...
i suck at management but i'm a pretty good craftsman and ok at business which lets me screw up and still make a few dollars...
pony
I can see the tile guy's point of view on this. 3/16" isn't much, this is a bathroom, not the NASA horizontal assembly building, so it's worth some time and thinking to make sure that a re-do is in fact the best way to go. I think a sub does the right thing by making absolutely sure that you have a thorough understanding of the options and their associated costs before making the final call. It's kinda like those "Are your Sure [Yes] [No]" messages from the computer when you go to delete something.
-- J.S.