The saga continues–I am helping build an addition on a storage shed and we have only old materials to work with. We have 2×8’s by 16′ and we need 2×4’s x 16′, so, chief brought a teeny table saw with no fence to cut boards with. yetserday we struggled with cross cutting truss members using the table saw. Today I am just going to use my circular saw and eyeball the cuts–100x faster! (He has a miter, but it doesn’t work well and there is still lots of guessing on the cuts, plus someone has to support the outer end of each board while the operator runs it through the blade!
I am thinking the easiest way to rip the 16′ 2×8’s in to make a rip fence by just clamping a 2/4 to the table. Anything wrong with this strategy? Normally I just put a guide on my circular saw and clamp the board, but that can be time consuming. We don’t seem to be real aware of how much time we kill by doing things inefficiently!
The other day the big chief wasn’t there, so the sub chief was in charge and changed the plan, had us build rafters out of 2×8’s. Big chief returned and those went on the scrap heap and we’re now building trusses.
Sub chief also had us sheath the INSIDE of the addition with OSB. I asked why and he said that’s what he was told to do if we needed something to do! (I protested and noted that by code it would have to be covered with drywall anyway and he said we weren’t going to do that–just paint the OSB.) But now everyone has concluded that was a bad idea and it will probably have to be torn off. Well, I can do hard work as well as anyone else, but doing it twice just sucks! We spent only a couple hours putting the OSB up, because I was cuttting them, putting two nails in to hold them, placing the panels and then letting someone else nail them off while I measured and cut the next one. Otherwise it would have taken twice as long. What a waste of time. No wonder volunteers burn out so quickly! (This is a project I’m doing with our church–God help me!)
(Yesterday we began cutting gussets out of plywood using the table saw–guy criticized me because some of the edges weren’t square–this was using a saw with no fence and I gave up on the miter! (How use a miter when the panel hangs off the table at the start of the cut?)
Replies
The fastest and easiest way to rip two by eights is to do it with your power saw.
Thats where you need a good table saw
It takes a lot of power to rip a two inch board
If you don't have one and you're cutting a lot of boards, it might save time by loading them into a pickup and taking them to a table saw elsewhere
good luck!
quickest way I've found to make crooked 2x4s is to rip straight 2x8s in half. The times I've tried it I got a high pretzilisation factor.
Sounds like the first thing you need is something to distract the chief so he is never there messing things up.
I can't tell you how many hundreds or maybe thousands of pieces of lumber I have ripped well with just a circ saw. Make a mark at the start end of the two by eight, set the saw teet to it, grip the overhanging sawfoot between thumb and forefinger to use as a guide, and slide rioght along ripping. If you don't have a calloused finger, slivers are a possibility, so you could use a sawguide. Or if you don't trust your grip, make a line the length of the board using a combination square.
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I carry electrician's tape to wrap around my left index finger as protection from splinters when ripping with my circular saw. Another method is to replace your finger and thumb with a small vise grip.
I agree that it's easier to rip 2X that way. And a worm drive makes it go about twice as fast as a sidewinder. Generally quieter too. Just chugs along.
That might be one area that the worm drive is superior.
That might be one area that the worm drive is superior.
Yeah, I'm not a fan of them for anything else. Except 3/4" plywood when it's wet.
What most guys don't understand is that worm drives were made to work with old fashioned steel blades, prior to the introduction of carbide tipped blades.
They had the torque to overcome a dull blade or one which had lost it's set. That meant that blades didn't need to be changed as often, saving time and multiple fees for reshapening blades.
Still, the blade wrench was usually tied to the saw's cord. And I still have a big stack of steel saw blades somewhere. They're "good" blades so I can't throw them out, even though I'll probably never need one again.
Don't remind me of the old framing steel blades! They were so much faster. Even brand new carbide blades don't come close to the speed of a good steel blade. I used to touch up my steel blades at least once a day. I only used framing blades (less teeth) and I could do a light touch up in 30 seconds.
If you wing those old blades just right you can stick them into the rafters in your shop.
It's fun to do and it looks cool with a couple of them sticking down!
Just put on your hard hat before you start to wing 'em at the rafters. Maybe carry a shield too. On second thought I believe I'll leave 'em on the shelf.
If they don't stick good you're not flinging them right.
Watch a Bruce Lee movie and drink some beers first. Pretend you are ninja warior.
hiiya!
Maybe a good game for the next Peachfest? All you need is a stump and some old blades.
Edited 8/19/2008 2:16 pm ET by popawheelie
LOL!
Got a big old cedar stump in the back that was in a fire in the 19th century sometime.
It has about 12 old steel blades sticking in it, some where thrown when Pahoo was Yancy Derringer's sidekick, and likely thrown like that too <G>
Yes, but from then on be sure to wear a hard hat.
Too much sanity may be madness. And maddest of all, to see life as it is and not as it should be! --Miguel de Cervantes
Tape around fingers? Blisters? Splinters? Gentlemen, there is a better way, probably right in your tool box all ready!
Use your stair gauge holding clamps (you know the brass hex shaped pieces that you use with your framing square when you set up to build stair stringers). Set them up as guides right on the circular saw to us as your "fence". This is a great time saver for this sort of thing.
Tad2
The finger-thumb method works better for most rips because it's faster to mark the end of the material, put the saw blade on the mark, grab the sole plate and rip away.
I've tried using square buttons but prefer a small vise grip or the taped finger method.
Another method is to replace your finger and thumb with a small vise grip.
Wouldn't it be dificult to pick yer nose or wipe yer butt with vise grips?"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Not to mention what you would do when home alone and feeling romantic.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Save the Whales! and Guns!
Ouch!!
Too much sanity may be madness. And maddest of all, to see life as it is and not as it should be! --Miguel de Cervantes
Have you ever ripped a board on a table saw without using a fence?It's probably done everyday but it's dangerous and is not recommendedI confess there are times I have cut plywood free hand on a table sawI had a line to follow and so I just cut the board and was careful
I've personally never cut anything of substantial size on a TS without a fence of some sort -- and I wouldn't try, unless it were literally a life-or-death situation. Others may be successful with it but they aren't wrestling with my tremors and muscle weakness. And they're likely dumber.But success doesn't depend too much on having an "official" fence vs a clamped-on board or some such. What's important is that the fence or fence substitute be solidly fastened, parallel to the blade, reasonably smooth, tall enough to keep the workpiece from jumping over it, and long enough to hold the workpiece parallel.
Too much sanity may be madness. And maddest of all, to see life as it is and not as it should be! --Miguel de Cervantes
LOL. I had a feeling that I should've rephrased that.
Get a worm drive and a rip fence. No big deal!
If I had to rip a lot of old DF lumber, on site, I'd probably buy a worm drive and use the fence.
When I did union form work, the contractors always had Skil worm drives. Those heavy, awkward saws do a good job of cutting wet 3/4" plywood, even doubled up. So I admire their torque for jobs that require power but that's where it ends for me.
I've secured a stair gage to the saw base for some rips, works with a makita , but my two Mils have an upturned lip.
done miles of battens and such with the old finger guide, got the callouses to prove it.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
Tacky and probably unprofessional but I have a couple of small c-clamps and clamp a small piece of 3/4 by about 1 1/2 by about 18' maple scrap to my Makita hypoid when faced with this task. Works like a charm. Edit: I think this is much easier than the little fence you usually get for these saws. Blade drift is basically non-existant.
Trying to rip those on one of the little saws especially without a fence is a recipie for disaster. I tried the cut paneling like that (at the insistance of helper/owner's friend) and could not believe how easy it was to bind.
Agree that it is good way to produce crooked 2x4's even if cut straight. Edit: it is a good point that the lumber grade is compromised when ripping, makes a lot of sense.
For those who have fought for it Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know.
Edited 8/20/2008 12:12 pm ET by rasconc
That's how I've done my two million board feet...with my thumb and forefinger (with gloves or duct tape). I have my table marked out so I don't have to use a tape. I don't advocate snapping and following the lines unless the carpenter intends on ripping it down the middle and then ripping each factory edge again parallel with the ripped edge, which usually won't yield enough meat if the piece was too crooked to start with. I seriously doubt that anyone with a table saw could outrip a power saw on a building that size.
I've pretty much alwways gotten by with my finger and no tape.
Back in the beginning, I was a shingle layer so my fingers were well calloused anyways. Then in the last 25 years, that is the finger I cut off and put back on so the nail is double or triple thick and there is a lot of scar tissue around there. I probably do get a sliver now and then, but not to recall.
most wood probably takes one look at that finger and gives it up.
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Welllll,
I would probably return the 2x8's to the LY and swap them for 2x4's ... but that's just me.
missed the part about them being used and salvage?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yep, working on the first cup of coffee here this morning.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
A circ with a new blade will go through it the best. The guides for most circs are cheap and once set it will save some time.
another thing I don't think any of us have mentiend is that one man alone can rip them with the circ saw. even if he had a decent TS on site, it would take two people who both know how to work together to do sixteen footers.This sounding like a big clusterfk with nobody really knowing what to do, esp not the job who asserts himself in charge, , is a scenario that can get somebody hurt, first with improper 'truss' design, then with inadequate and unsafe TS.I'd want to be off all alone ripping the stock by myself at the pile while everybody else argues and throws lumber back and forth. That way I don't get blamed and don't get hurt.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I'd want to be off all alone ripping the stock by myself at the pile while everybody else argues and throws lumber back and forth. That way I don't get blamed and don't get hurt.
LOL. Amen to that.
Nonetheless, there are times when you going to get blamed no matter how careful you are to stay out of the way.
In a situation like that, I just fasten a couple of stair gauges to the circular saw plate at the appropriate location and rip away. No fuss, no muss, no bother.
Ooops..shoulda kept reading..Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
Danno,
What's wrong with a saw guide and a nice sharp blade? Cuts straight and fast!!
Wow! Thanks for the advice! I couldn't post last night (wife needed computer), so I think I read one before I left for the job site. As it turns out, we had a crew of three new guys today (as well as the "chief" nd me) and none of the new guys wanted to rip 2x8's either. Since we were making trusses, we ended up using 8 foot 2x4's for the bottom chord when we ran out of 16 footers and butted them under one of the gussets.
It was an "interesting" day! First, the chief had told me he wanted trusses at 16" o.c., so when he went off to buy nails, the others asked me how many trusses we were making and I said "Eight." So we all worked our butts off and made eight trusses. Guy comes back and asks how come so many--only need six. I said, "What? If you go 16" on center...." and he says, "Oh, I guess I didn't tell you, I changed my mind--no need to have them that close together. 24" on center is enough!" Swell. So my layout and the brace I laid out are wrong too.
I lay out 24's on one wall and since he's up on a ladder by the other wall, I aske him if he'll lay out that wall plate. He mumbles something about he probably could, or we could just measure as we go (!) (yeah, that'll really be efficient and save time!).
Then he tears off the 2x4 I had nailed to the center of the gable end, extending up to keep the gable truss from falling off the wall when it's set in place. Kept telling me that board was in his way and it was no longer necessary. I tried to explain three times why I had it there. Next thing I know, it's over on the scrap pile.
We get ready to put the trusses up on the walls and he starts going onm about spacing for the sheathing and siding. I ask him what the heck he's talking about--aren't we going to sheath and side the whole addition (which at the moment is bare studs (except for the OSB he had us put on the INSIDE and now thinks was a bad idea (really!?)). He doesn't understand what I'm saying, nor do I understand wht he is concerned about allowing room for sidning and sheathing when it will be done after the trusses are up. I tell him that if we were to sheath the gable end truss before placing it, we would need to "fir" out the brace (if we had one) the thickness of the sheathing so the truss could drop into place and the sheathing would overhand the top plate for nailing. He still doesn' understand what I am saying.
We get ready to place the gable end truss after getting the trusses up on the walls and he is talking some nonsense about bracing it ofer to a nearbt tree or a brace to the floor. Finally I grab the 2x4 I had up before and nail it back where I had it and we raise the truss. I advise the guys on top to put one nail through the truss into the brace near the top, as I hate it when the gable truss falls into the others and hurts people. So someone gun nails it (good luck getting that loos when the time comes!).
Before we place the second truss, someone asks about layout and I tell them one wall is done, but we need the other done. I remind them that the first layout line is 23-1/4" from the end. Not one person agrees and they all start arguing with me. I try to explain about plywood, yes, it's on center, but after the first sheet because you start the first sheet flush with the end, not in 3/4" and only one guy who has done Habitat houses understands what I'm saying. Guy on the wall I marked tells me my mark isn't at 23-14"--more like 22-1/2". Finally convince him to pull the layout from the outside end of the top plate (don't know where he was measuring from) and he says, "Well, now it's more like 24-34"!" Someone tells him to look at the other line. And so it goes.
I tell the guy above me to put two nails in one side of the truss (to the plate) and one in the other side. He takes the gun and fires two in one side and three in the other, splitting the bottom chord. I say, "See, when you use so many nails, it splits the bottom chord; like I said, just two in one side and one in the other." He seems to understand. I hand him a pre-nailed brace and he starts to nail it to the top of the first two truss's bottom chords. I tell him that that distance has been pretty well fixed by their nailing the bottom chords to the top plate and where we really need to prevent flopping around is at the top and show him how to nail the brace across two segments of the top chord. I showed him the pre-nailed long brace to do the rest with and he looks at me kind of vaguely.
I had to go to a doctor appointment, so God only knows what I'll find when I get there tomorrow morning!
I'm sure these guys think I'm an overbearing SOB and what makes me think I can order them around, but darn--it'd be different if they just had different ways of accomplishing the same thing, but what they are doing is often just wrong and there's no way to sugar coat that. I shudder to think of the framing they've done when we went down to MS and ALA to rebuild after Katrina! Yipes!
You shoulda made a reality show out of that shed LOL!
I should make a reality show out of my life--but no one would believe it!
More like a situation comedy--funny to everyone but me!
Tried to tell my wife my frustration and she's like--well, everyone does things a little differently. Yes, but there's merely different and there is wrong! Their way could get one of us injured--or some passer-through after the building is up and something fails! Construction shouldn't be a trial and error proposition! "Hey, lets run this up the flagpole and see if anyone salutes!" No big deal if you measure wong for the plywood, but if a roof caves in, that's a whole different thing. (I hate it when that happens--guess that's how they view it. "Man, I just hate it when I put up a house and the roof caves in in the first snowstorm!)
How much enertainment tax does the boss have to pay?.
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
i know where your coming from,our church has done 5 habitat house's,great guys to work with, and if someone has a better idea thats what we do.i've been proud of evrey one we have done.
then the preist got the idea that the members could build a 7k school building. metal type const. did have a erector come in and stand the iron and sheet the roof.we was to build overhangs,and sheeting then all the insides. i showed up first day,no real ladders,need to work on the edge of roof by hanging over 16' in the air,no one really understands metal building procedures and how things attach to the frame.
i looked around for about a hour,walked up to the guy kinda in charge and said" we have no bussiness working on this,there will be kids inside and we don't have tools or knowledge to build this. i left ,never went back,they finally got it done,i never heard that anyone got hurt ,but it was a accident waiting to happen.
evreybody means well but sometimes it isn't worth it. just like your deal ,will there be people inside this addtion or just storage? larryif a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
Yeah, there will be customers inside looking through the clothing and then buying it, not to mention the workers sorting and selling. I am concerned about that.
You may find my last posting under "Had a good day today" in the Tavern to be interesting--very similar to your experience. I hate it when I start something--carry the ball when no one else wants to and then suddenly a bunch of self appointed "experts" show up and take it all out of my hands and run away with it--and they don't have a clue! This happened in my old church all the time and it happened when I went down south to rebuild after Katrina. It's like there is a clique, and if you aren't in it, you are nothing--they don't want to even listen to your advice. Very frustrating.
Speed has been the biggest factor in the recommendations behind the circ saw and guide. No question.
But as you mention, the accuracy needs to be emphasized. I've had a trim carp box in fake beams using 16'+ lengths of 3/4" oak while mitering the edges for a flawless fit simply with a guide on his circ saw.
I doubt if it applies here, but ripping lumber like that often downgrades it. Or so a lumber salesman told me. Makes sense to me.
John
In Biloxi we did a lot of work with an old TS with no fence, cobbling a fence with a piece of scrap and clamps. It's tedious setting it up, of course, but once set is as good as a regular fence (if you pick the right piece of scrap for the job, and have decent clamps).
Still, ripping long 2x8s on a TS is tricky. You really need three people, a pusher, a catcher, and someone right at the saw to push the board against the fence. The pusher especially needs to be aware of the need to move the board right/left/up/down as needed to keep it flush with the fence and table -- a skill that isn't commonly found in your typical induhvidual. The catcher, on the other hand, needs to be aware of the need to let the boards go where they want, and not apply undue pressure in any direction -- just support the weight of the boards.
Be careful!!
Ripping with a good circ saw might be easier, if you have a rip fence for it.
Of course, with any reclaimed lumber, and especially when ripping, someone needs to carefully inspect the boards for nails before cutting.
we almost never have three people on the TS ripping no matter how long - only if there is nothing else to do or somebody needs to look busy when an owner is looking on.;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
If I was an owner looking on and saw three people sawing one board, I'd think I was in the Caribbean because that's the only place I've ever seen that. PS I'd fire all three.
ahy, Don' fire mee nawwww mon! I just bee learnin dis traede!Fire Dan
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I'm sure that's the case. But with the induhviduals in question, and 16-footers, I'd strongly advise 3. Otherwise someone has to be shuffling between one end and the other, and that creates many opportunities for bad things.
Too much sanity may be madness. And maddest of all, to see life as it is and not as it should be! --Miguel de Cervantes
One thing I learned early on in my woodbutchering career is when to take the tool to the wood, and when to take the wood to the tool. I mean push a 10 lb wormdrive, or a 30lb hunk of timber?
This absurdity he is doing is clearly a case of take the tool to the wood, no if's and or buts. If I needed 2x4;s outta a pile of 8's , AND I needed them "nice" I'd still rip with a circle saw a straight edge, and then run the resulting 2x4+ thru a table saw for a clean up of the other edge, if the width allowed.
But given his scenario, I probably would have just gone and got a circ saw, and send the other two guys out for a box of skyhooks and and a pair of board stretchers, and maybe a few cold gatorades.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
Yeah, I tend to agree with you, though I've never attempted to rip a 16-foot 2x8 either way, to have personal knowledge of the relative ease of the two methods.I **have**, on the other hand, ripped a lot of 8-12 foot 1x material on a TS (and done a fair amount of it in a Habitat environment), and I know how difficult that can be and what the "gotchas" are, so I feel reasonably well qualified to give advice on ripping long boards on a TS.
Too much sanity may be madness. And maddest of all, to see life as it is and not as it should be! --Miguel de Cervantes
If what has been posted so far about the job is anywhere near accurate I would have volunteered to go get the board stretcher and refused to return until I found one.
Hate to disappoint anyone by making a promise to bring something back and give up prior to finding it.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Or impress the hell outta them by ripping the 2x8x16 on a diagonal, and sliding the two halves past each other and make a 2x4x24 outta it LOL.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
Yeah, my wife does that with quilt backing material.
Too much sanity may be madness. And maddest of all, to see life as it is and not as it should be! --Miguel de Cervantes
Well, we have the trusses all in place--turns out they pretty much stopped working after I left at 4 yesterday. Today after nailing the trusses, we realized that one wall was not plumb where it joined the old building! (I heard them check it for "plumb" after it was set in place, but it today it was definitely way off--I'm chagrinned I didn't see that the top was about an inch and a half in--bottom of wall was even with inside of old sheathing, but top was in. So we pulled the nails and move the top of the wall out and renailed the trusses! What a pain! This is what hapens when crew leader comes and goes and no one else is really left in charge and people assume someone else checked it out.
I told everyone that we would nail a brace across the top chords of the trusses at 24" o.c. and then, since the bottoms were also nailed 24" o.c., we just needed to plumb the gable end trusss and all the rest would be pushed to plumb too. Good idea, but left much to be desired in practice! Don't know what the deal was--if brace wasn't nailed on the marks, or if the trusses are that warped or what, but after plumbing the first one, it even looked plumb, but the rest were skewed every which way. Had to pull the brace and renail after plumbing each one individually. Another big waste of time, but necessary. I had to leave early again, so....
One "funny" thing--I was pulling staples (yeah, old shingles were stapled) on the steeply sloped bottom part of the old roof after we stripped the shingles. One guy told me that that was unnecessary, and a waste of time, as nothing will be nailed to that part. I told him I just didn't like standing on the wall plate and having staples protruding into my legs and parts between whenever I leaned forward. But I gave up and started helping with projecting the lines of the valley onto the old roof. A minute later a guy slides down the steep lower old roof and tears a big hole in the back of his pants--slid over one of those staples.
You have the right idea about taking the tool to the lumber.But you have the wrong execution.Take 2 of them and grab the table saw, turn it over and move it down the board..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I don't know if this has been raised, but I believe that simply ripping a plank in two does not mean you'll end up with 2 planks of the same grade: knots on an can edge significantly reduce t's strength, and lumber is, I think, sawn and resawn to avoid that condition, leaving the knots "in the middle" (or at least away from the edges.)
In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
A stately pleasure-dome decree
Where Alph, the sacred river, ran
Through caverns measureless to man
Down to a sunless sea.
Coleridge
I don't know if this has been raised, but I believe that simply ripping a plank in two does not mean you'll end up with 2 planks of the same grade:
It is true. It's the same thing as saying that you can rip a 2x12 down and make 2-2x6's and use them for ceiling joists or rafters, you can't because they're not 2x6's. Those 2x8's getting ripped into 2x4's are not the same as 2x4's. They wouldn't be able to be used to frame walls for a house or addition where I'm from.
Joe Carola
Many years ago at auction I had bought a stack of old growth fir 2x10s 18 ft long that had been salvaged from an old theater torn down years before.
Yep, I cut some into 2x5s for framing a balloon wall. Luckily, I cannot recall how I did it so I cannot embarrass myself further.
I didn't have time to read all responses but I thought I'd mention that when you rip dimensional lumber due to knots and other imperfections in the lumber, that would other wise be away from the edges of a 2x8, can end up on the edges of a ripped piece of lumber and change it's grade and strength. It is a violation of code where I work though it is still done on occasion. That being said use a saw and rip guide and be done with it. It is actually faster then the thumb and finger technique (which I use myself often if I'm ripping a few things) but you set the guide once and go.
As someone has previously stated, you are likely to wind up with a lot of material that would be great if you were building a circular building. Also, I've been surprised that Boss Hog has not been heard from. The materials used for truss construction should be graded for the stresses that will be required for the truss as designed. When you rip a graded 2x8 (lets say 1200f) will not necessarily produce a 1200f 2x4. As for the little toy table saw. Just cram a few 2x's through it. My guess is that it want last very long before the smoke comes curling out and it's toast. Then as Piffin has suggested, get out your power saw.