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Roof Advice

| Posted in General Discussion on September 21, 2003 02:32am

Hello all,

This is a customers roof. He is concerned about the life expectancy of his cedar shake shingles. This is the original roof to a 30s era stone tudor.

I don’t know roofs…(I usually work on the other end of the house)….but I told him I could find out.

Thanks!

Ditch

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Replies

  1. Framer | Sep 21, 2003 02:50pm | #1

    That is some house and roof. I like the way they did the valley. I've never seen it done that way befor. There's no copper valley. They just weaved it in the re like you would asphalt shingles.

    Joe Carola

    1. Piffin | Sep 21, 2003 10:29pm | #11

      Joe,

      I learned that valley technique for slate but use it for other kinds of roofing on high end jobs. It does take longer but makes a better job. It can be a little tricky. There is metal falshing in there but you can't see it, which is the intent.

      I would have to poke a fork in this roof to see if it is done yet, but I wouldn't do much to it because if there are no symptoms, you could cause problems by tending to it. Looks mighty fine for a roof that old..

      Excellence is its own reward!

      1. johnharkins | Sep 21, 2003 11:29pm | #12

        wow what a beautiful piece of work

        a pitch like that could it be 14/12 or 15/12 almost anything works for a roof

        probably a case like slate where the fasteners and flashings fail before roofing material   I've removed 60 yr old cedar shingles from a 14/12 pitch in rainy Pac NW and the bottom 3" of the 5" exposure was pretty well toast but the 13" or so lapped was like brand new.  Even on the "bad" side of your beaut there are no signs of wear. I bet you could pull a worst case from the shade side and if those butts are really 1 1/2" thick not more than a 1/4" will be compromised.

        I'll second the request for more pictures and please post for all of us what constitutes the deck for that roof  thanks John

      2. Framer | Sep 22, 2003 01:07am | #14

        Piffin,

        I've weaved valleys befor with asphalt shingles Timberline but I've always wood shakes done with W bent shaped exposed copper valleys.

        This roof when you look at it closely you can't see any copper. It looks just like an asphalt shingled weaved valley.

        That is some beautiful roof and house and whatever way they did the valley it is beautiful.

        It looks alot better then this one in my attached drwaing. You raelly can't see the valley that good but the roofer did bend the copper like a W and kept both sides of the valley about 2-1/2" away from the center.

        Joe Carola

        1. Piffin | Sep 22, 2003 01:51am | #16

          Joe,

          To weave a valley with asphalt, you don't cut the shingles at all. You run in from both sides as you lay up the valley and alternate lapping over each other from left and from right.

          obviously, you can't do that with stiff product like slate or shakes. So to make the valley flashing disapper, you use a form of step flashing that you weave into the shingle layers, You still have to lay both sides at once and you need ice and water shield behind or a heavy felt.

          The size of the step flashing depends on the size of the shingle. For shakes like these, i would probably use roll valley metal 16" or 20" and cut off pieces that are square. Then I break them on the diagonal.

          Once the valley liner (I&Wshiel) is in place, I run a chalk line up the center of the valley to be sure it doesn't wander. Then I lay in the step flash piece and lay shingles cut to the angle on either side and shingle out from there. That way, I can precut a whole pile of valley shingles on the ground at the radial arm or the table saw, which helps speed up the process.

          So the bottom point of the step flash piece is at the bottom of the twin sides of that course of shingles as they meet in the valley. Where it all gets tricky is if the two pitches are different or if you missed snapping that line in the center. Then the two courses fail to keep meeting evenly.

          But you close up finally finished downloading and it does look like they rolled shingles through the valley somehow, approximating the look of a thatch roof. I think I see some angled cuts in there and shingles that lie right flat into the valley. Still, there has to be something backing all that up. My way looks good like that but with a more crisp line defining center tho you don't ever see the metal.

          Good eye to catch that!.

          Excellence is its own reward!

          1. HeavyDuty | Sep 22, 2003 02:20am | #17

            Could it be posssible that they put a backing strip to bridge the valley to create that rolled effect? Seen it done before but didn't look at it close enough.

            Tom

          2. seeyou | Sep 22, 2003 01:48pm | #18

            Yeah, I've seen that done on a slate roof. Lay a 1x12 so it bridges the center of the valley and the courses appear to curve from one plane to the other. The installation is done as Piffen explained.

          3. Framer | Sep 22, 2003 01:59pm | #19

            To weave a valley with asphalt, you don't cut the shingles at all. You run in from both sides as you lay up the valley and alternate lapping over each other from left and from right.

            I know that because I've done roofs befor with weaved valleys. I just typed in weaved valleys because that roof kind of has that effect. It sort of looks like an inside corner of a house with cedar shakes overlapping eachother with no inside corner board.

            I guess a roof like that you would be better off starting from the valley and work your way out.

            Anyway, still love that roof.

            Joe Carola

          4. Piffin | Sep 22, 2003 03:03pm | #20

            It is indeed admirable!.

            Excellence is its own reward!

          5. luvmuskoka | Sep 22, 2003 03:04pm | #21

            Back to this roof.

            Would most agree with this approach: Have a reputable, established, wood shingle roofer inspect the sheathing from the attic and look for signs of water infiltration.

            If moderate infiltration is found does that indicate repair or replacement?

            As Piffin said. Messing around with that roof may actually create problems that don't currently exist.

            Ditch

            Edited 9/22/2003 5:22:41 PM ET by luvditchburns

  2. Schelling | Sep 21, 2003 03:44pm | #2

    Ditch-

    Nice looking roof. A few years ago we replaced a shake roof for a house built in 1970. It was leaking in a couple of spots and on closer inspection the shakes were rotting to the point where 80%of the shingles would be failing in five more years. The site was heavily wooded in upstate NY. The owners wished to retain the original look. We contacted the cedar trade association to find out what could be done to extend the life of the new roof. We were told that unless we used pre-treated shakes there was nothing that could be done to make the roof last longer, given the location of the house. We followed all the recommendations for the application of the shakes but expect that someone will be back to replace our work in 25 years.

    This house is obviously in a different climate. Whereas our roof was covered with moss, yours has none. Sunlight seems to be the main weathering agent. Who knows how much longer it can last? Keep an eye out for leaks and replace the whole roof as soon as you are aware of any.

    1. luvmuskoka | Sep 21, 2003 04:12pm | #3

      There is moss present on the roof. The north side rather extensively. You can see evidence of it on the small porch roof.

      These shakes are very thick,  at least an inch.

      The flat metal roofs gave up and have been replaced with epdm.Ditch

    2. luvmuskoka | Sep 21, 2003 04:13pm | #4

      Sorry...this home is located in N.W. Pa. Heavy snow loads.Ditch

      1. andybuildz | Sep 21, 2003 05:21pm | #5

        Ditch,

                 Looks a little worse that the roof on the section of my house I ripped down...Hows the venting first of all?

        Skip sheathing I would hope with attic vents? The section I ripped had no skip sheathing and no venting and looked almost exactly like your pic.

        The section of the house I'm leaving which is the original circa:1680 house is skip sheathed and very airy in the attic to say the least but its still detereorating which I will rip and redo next spring after the rains ( I hope).

        I would suggest reroofing and use zinc strips at the peaks along with a serious venting system.

         Seems like these folks have a few bucks so I might also suggest using a real good water proofing material shot out of a garden sprayer ever few years after a light power washing.

        I think it's be worth it because the roof looks outstanding on that house.

        PS....any pic of the floors you did there and the inside of that incredable crib....and history???

        BE floored.....I mean roofed,

                                                andyTrue compassion arises out of the plane of consciousness where I "am" you.

        http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

  3. User avater
    teasea | Sep 21, 2003 06:08pm | #6

    I was told that the life expectancy of a ceder shake roof  The good ones inch or inch and a half at the butt is 50 years, is that the original roof from the 30s? wow!

    1. luvmuskoka | Sep 21, 2003 08:48pm | #7

      "A"

      Here are some pics of the library after. I don't have any of the before....but they were the original orange shellac/wax. The wax was so heavy that the finish crazed in the sunlit portions of the floor. Ditch

    2. luvmuskoka | Sep 21, 2003 08:55pm | #8

      Here are some more from the steet and wet side.Ditch

      1. User avater
        teasea | Sep 21, 2003 09:33pm | #9

        dam! thats a nice house!

      2. HeavyDuty | Sep 21, 2003 09:49pm | #10

        I think I've got palpitation. That's a beaut. Can we have more pics, front and back elevations etc.

        1. luvmuskoka | Sep 22, 2003 01:51am | #15

          Here's another from the same hood. There are about a dozen fine homes in this hood.Ditch

      3. xMikeSmith | Sep 22, 2003 01:02am | #13

        luv... that roof is toast... if you could get on it , it would crumble under your feet..

         i would absolutely call for a complete strip & reroof.. and  i would expect a lot of rotten sheathing under..

        i would try to talk the owner into a 50 year asphalt  like Grand Manor.. or a  slate roof..

         or if he wanted a RC roof i would spec RC thick butt at 5.5 " to weather . with copper flashings copper ridge, laid on either skip sheathing or Cedar Breather.. and i would only give the job to someone with wood roof track recordMike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

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