Hi all,
I am a general contractor and I am bidding on many projects. However, many of the exclusive jobs that I have plans for involve roof framing(dormers,additions etc.). I am having a hard time finding framers who like the nail gun more than the bar stool. I have framed the last two projects myself and the money is great. The problem I am having is that I am not very proficient in figuring and cutting rafters. I can get by but if I had some training with a framing square and a experienced teacher/framer I would not only be able to bid and sign contracts, but I would also be able to work my projects from start to finish. I am apprehensive about aggressively pursuing certain jobs because I am afraid that if I get the contract and I am unable to secure one of my competent framing subs to fit the job schedule, the roof framing may be a little more than I can handle. Any information that will allow me to gain the ins and outs of pitches,the birds mouth and the plumb cut will be greatly appreciated
Replies
Full Length Roof Framer
By A.F.J.Riechers
Copyright by A.F.Riechers
1917,1944 and 1969
http://members.aol.com/afriechers/rflrf.html
Edited 1/24/2003 5:20:02 PM ET by Larry
Framing Roofs
Fine Homebuilding magazine
You'll find wide-ranging articles that tell how to lay out, design and build common and uncommon residential roofs. You'll learn to plan and build gable roofs, hip roofs and dormers and how to frame with trusses. Plus how pros handle tricky situations like irregular hips and pitches.
http://www.taunton.com/store/pages/070337.asp
By far the easiest to understand most practical and complete
"The Roof Framer's Bible" by Barry Mussel
You also might consider Marshall Gross's book "Roof Framing" While this one is more in depth it is a struggle to force yourself to wade thru it.
These give you a good heads up but the only way to really learn is to do it.
Once you break the roof down they all become pretty simple.
Thanks Benny. I understand what you mean about breaking the roof down. My problem is that I have been doing it by learn as you go without any real experienced input. I'll try the books. Thanks again.
One of nice things about Full Length Roof Framer, it's ideal for doing a takeoff for materials. The other books could very well do the same thing.
Some of these have already been mentioned, but I'll mention them again.
"Roof Framing" by Marshal Gross
"Roof Cutter's Secrets to Framing the Custom Home" by Will Holladay
"Framing Roofs" Finehomebuilding
You might consider a membership to JLC and get access to all of their past articles online.
Construction Master calculator is a good investment. The more you learn about framing roofs, the more useful it becomes.
Go to http://www.jlconline.com and go to the rough framing forums. There quite a few guys there who can help you no matter what the question. Scroll through past threads. There is a ton to learn there. Also I suggest http://www.josephfusco.com. There are some articles there that are worth the time and also the forum is a good place to discuss framing.
Thank You Tim. I have an estimate saturday for an addition with a ridge replacement and a bunch of dormers( shed & dog house). I'm hoping to get a crash course to have a profitable winter & spring. Your suggestions will be a great help.
B. What Larry said .......Mine is a lot of duct tape and coffee stains but the book back has the hours I work for 1week in July of.......1971. In the old days really had fun building 1/2 hip set with plywood on the ground and having a boom truck lift them up on top of the walls. Tried shingle on the gound once but didn't work to good , never got to try it again but I think it could be done. That book is the answer.
Carpentry by Koel.
That's the book I learned from in trade school. Lotsa explinations with lotsa pics/ diagrams.
How strong is your math background? Roof framing is basic geometry for the most part. Most everything breaks down to triangles...and triangle geometry.
I was taught how to use the framing square......and read the charts....but was also taught the math behind the charts...Koels should help get a grip on that part.
After the math makes sense.....just a coupla layout rules to remember and away ya go.
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
Thank you!
In my opinion.......this book is one of the best kept secrets in roof framing.
You guys may laugh at this suggestion but in Canada our apprenticeship is done in metric and when you break down the "little triangles" into millimeters it makes cutting roofs a brease (no fractions to deal with)
once the walls are erected, we measure the house with a metric tape, take those measurements to the ground and make all the cuts there. 99.9% of the time all pieces fit perfect and for the most part it's half again as fast!!!
All this with a small investment of a metric tape and a metric framing square which has the roof charts in metric stamped right on the tongue and body.
This system also works great on stairs.
I can see where that would be a great idea.
Construction Master IV
A very good purchase. This calculator will till you any measurement you need in metric or imperial. It'll give you pitches, angles and area's. You can also use it for stairs, concrete and estimating.
Of coarse the calculator doesn't explain roof principles, but it helps. The framing square guides are good, but the books mentioned are better.
I'm also from Canada, I prefer the imperial measurements.
Those calculators work fine If you already have the basic principals mastered and from what I've seen the instructions books that come with those calculators are as big as any roof framing book. If you go through as many calculators as I do, with people dropping lumber in them and bad weather ruining them than a $10.00 Radio Shack metric conversion calculator is a far better tool to have wrecked than the expensive construction master.
But I agree ... whichever technique you chose to use, the aforementioned books are great references
When you buy a stanley framing square, or a swanson speed square, these tools come with little books with them to explain it.
Here's another common practice we used in the 70's/80's when sheeting roof's that exceeded 8/12 pitch where cedar shakes are being used. We would separate each row of plywood with a 2X4, this accomplished two things. First it allowed for much more safety in finding footholdes on a steeper roof pitch. Second it allowed the roof to breathe from the inside out.
Edited 1/25/2003 2:55:02 PM ET by Larry
Cutting roofs are my favorite part of framing. A Constuction Master is a must. I read Marshall Gross's roof framing book, which should help you out. I learned quite a bit from him but felt he spent too much time explaining why the calculations work. There are a lot of books out there on the subject keep looking till you find one that works for you. Understanding the scales on your framing square will help you grasp the basics. May I recommend a Fat Boy it is like your normal framing square but thicker, I love that thing. A speed square with a hip/valley scale will also speed layout up for you. Good Luck
ditto on marshall gross book, it the bible with the duct tape.....bear
I'd like to make a few other comments about A.F.J.Riechers book. With this book there's no need to use any of the calculation from the inside portion of a framing square, only the outside numbers are ever needed. Its not only a book that illustrate the basic fundamental of any typical roof construction,but also a working tool for management. Unless you've actually used this particular book ( tool) its very hard for anyone to understand how easy it might apply.
Thanks STOSSEL1. I have to get a firm grip on roof framing in the next couple of months. The projects that I have scheduled are forcing me to.
"I'd like to make a few other comments about A.F.J.Riechers book. With this book there's no need to use any of the calculation from the inside portion of a framing square, only the outside numbers are ever needed. Its not only a book that illustrate the basic fundamental of any typical roof construction,but also a working tool for management. Unless you've actually used this particular book ( tool) its very hard for anyone to understand how easy it might apply."
With this book in hand one person with very little carpentry skills or knowledge can stand on the ground with one measurement and knowing the overhang/ pitch needed, within minutes layout any common , valley, jack,hip rafters, just by adding two numbers together.
necessary tool:
pencil
paper
framing square
rule
Just for the record, these other books mention here could very well do the same thing, however I've personally never used any them because of never having a need to.
Edited 1/26/2003 6:43:00 AM ET by Larry
In the 70's/80's the only people that carried this book were job foremans, supervision and management. Please keep in mind back then most of the roof framing on custom homes was conventional framed. The typical carpenter working with his/ her tools never had access to this book. One of the reasons was management did not want competitors to have any advantage, this also held true within the carpentry trade itself. Older carpenter who were insecure about their job's would never share this information with the younger ones.
I've also noticed in this discussion others have suggested several other places for you to fine this information (roof framing). In my opinion there's no better place than here at breaktime for this discussion.
Edited 1/26/2003 7:08:23 AM ET by Larry
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Edited 1/26/2003 8:12:25 AM ET by Larry
Edited 1/26/2003 8:13:34 AM ET by Larry
Larry, I am sure that the book is going to be a great resource. one more question. Some of my anxiety on my jobs comes from not knowing an exact sequence of steps once the walls are up. I spend lots of time plumbing, bracing and checking diagonals to make lif easy with the roof. What I really need( in addition to Reichers book) is a set of sequenced steps to follow once the walls are up. On the job I am doing now I framed both gables on the deck, sheathed them, Tyvek, rakes and stood them up. Next I hung the ridge and started figuring the rafters. I am just wondering( since I have only been framing my own jobs for a year or so) if the sequence of steps I am using most of the time coul be changed to save time.(money)
Thanks for all of your input,
Beast
Only once I've ran into a roof that this book wouldn't apply, it was on a large contemporary home.
Edited 1/26/2003 9:46:25 AM ET by Larry
Something I've found working with drawing's over the years, most architects will highlight and detail anything that is not typical framing. Furthermore I've never seen a home structure that this book wouldn't apply there wasn't an architect involved in that hadn't already figured out must of the difficult framing.
Edited 1/26/2003 9:56:55 AM ET by Larry
Edited 1/26/2003 10:03:29 AM ET by Larry
Edited 1/26/2003 10:05:02 AM ET by Larry
Years ago I built a large custom home as a general contractor near D.C. where we removed all the ceiling rafter's in the master bedroom , this allowed for the creation of an office area above with open ceiling. This home had a hip roof and because what we have done by removing the ceiling rafter that secure the outside walls we needed to double up the hip. My point is there's very little done in new home construction without the approval of drawings and design of, inspectors, structural engineers and architects.
Edited 1/26/2003 11:14:09 AM ET by Larry
Ive read Reichers book, Marshall's book, and others. I found the easiest for me was a book available through JLC bookstore. I think is called Rough Framing Carpentry. It teaches how to use a framing square and calculator. No looking up lengths in the rafter tables.
Another very useful source was the "Complete Roof Framing Videos" set of 4 videos always advertised in JLC and FH. These are great.
I am a self taught builder/contractor/framer, etc. These books videos address pretty much all you'll need to know.
I have only come across on roof that was not addressed in any book that I could find. The roof was a hip roof with mutiple pitches. Meaning that one side was a 8/12 and the other side was a 10/12 but sharing the same hip rafter. This was quite a challenge. I eventually had to call the architect (mail order plans) to get the formula he used to calculate the rafter lengths.
Good luck. Its rewarding when you finally figure it out and it starts clicking.
Chris
"Meaning that one side was a 8/12 and the other side was a 10/12 but sharing the same hip rafter."
If you don't mind I'd like to ask a question. Was the solution in adding more length to the ridge?
Its very easy using Reichers book with multiple hip pitches. First someone would need to know the main pitch, this will establish the height of the ridge. Second the length of the ridge, if this measurement is not provided by the architect then scale it off the drawings. Once the main ridge is set than everything from that point is down hill from there.
Edited 1/26/2003 2:05:22 PM ET by Larry
scale it off the print?
not good for accuracy especially because some architects have a harder time with the roof than some framers.
"not good for accuracy especially because some architects have a harder time with the roof than some framers." I agree, but then again some architect isn't paying five guys to stand around with their thumbs up their****
Edited 1/26/2003 3:19:15 PM ET by Larry
Larry,
Why would there be 5 framers standing there with there thumbs up there butt?
Can't they frame the roof without an Architect or scaling the plans?
How can you possibly scale a plan to get a ridge length?
Can the framers frame the roof without a book?
Joe Carola
This is only my opinion and keep in mind we are talking about a non typical roof.
"Why would there be 5 framers standing there with there thumbs up there butt?" This was the normal size of a framing crew in the 70's
"Can't they frame the roof without an Architect or scaling the plans?" yes
"How can you possibly scale a plan to get a ridge length?" I've scaled lots of things from drawing's that were poorly done.
"Can the framers frame the roof without a book?" yes
Again this is only my opinion
Edited 1/26/2003 3:35:37 PM ET by Larry
Larry,
There are definitely a bunch of poorly done plans out there but if there are poorly drawn, why would you, me, or anybody else think that they could scale from those poor plans to get an accurate dimension?
We all do have to scale a dimension occasionally but it is a choice of last resort, something that should be confirmed otherwise, and not a method that should be recommended, especially when the standard for plans includes the recommendation or warning NOT to scale from drawings.
There are very good reasons for this. One I can think of is the customer who requests at the last minute that the roof pitch be changed from 4/12 to 6/12. It is often the case that the archy will change the notes attached which take precedence in all contracts I have seen. They do not always change the entire drawing if it is a simple four sided hip and save the customer the maney for redrawing.
With CAD it is easy and cheap to make those drawing changes but not so with older work done on the boards.
Another reason is that sometimes drawings, or potions of drawings, are faxed. A fax will distort the scale of the drawing.
.
Excellence is its own reward!
something I need to correct
"if this measurement is not provided by the architect then" I'd "scale it off the drawings."
Must every drawing I've worked with was by some kind of scale, if not than I probably was not part of that project. Also, normally any major measurement that might had needed would be discussed with someone other than myself.
Larry,
You said, "Second the length of the ridge, if this measurement is not provided by the architect then scale it off the drawings."
Do you get Blueprints with Ridge lengths or rafter lengths?
If you do that's different then the Architects in New Jersey because I've never seen that befor.
The only measurement that I have seen and maybe a couple of times is the height to the top of the ridge and that's not correct.
Rafters and ridge lengths regular roofs or Bastard /Hip Roofs are always figured by the framer.
Books are good depending on the ones you get. I have alot of them and I understand them now only because I've framed so many years without them. The first book I bought was 2 years ago "The Roof Framers Bible" One of the best books out there. All I ever knew was my framing square.
To teach an 18 year old kid how to layout a rafter and frame a roof is the most important thing in understanding roof framing. Alot of these books just give you the rafter lengths there not right unless you deduct your ridge first for the run. An 18 year old kid wouldn't no that just by using a book. If he knew the principles about roof framing first he would no it.
I do alot of additions and I have fixed ridge heights and fixed fascia lines and overhangs, the pitch could wind up being 5-5/8/12 these books don't tell you that.
Books are great and also calculators but if you understand roof framing first then the books are easier to understand and you'll no what to punch in on a calculator.
I like the Roof Framers Bible but I'm the type of guy that wants to know how and why those answers are in there and I do know but that's me.
I know that if I leave my calculator or book home I'm not in any trouble, like I said that's just me and Framing is what I do for a living and I want to understand all of it.
Joe Carola
"An 18 year old kid wouldn't no that just by using a book. If he knew the principles about roof framing first he would no it."
First, we are in more agreement than you might think by my writing. My first four years of working in carpentry was with an older custom builder that did everything the old fashion way. This is probably where I got the roots of my experience. It wasn't until after the military when I became exposed to a much higher caliber of builder and carpenter's, supervisors etc. did I relies there was a completely different approach. However this does not mean say in anyway the first builder I'd worked with was not of first class, only old fashion.
To answer your question about drawing with ridge measurements. Yes, I have worked with drawings of this caliber.
Edited 1/26/2003 6:49:56 PM ET by Larry
Edited 1/26/2003 7:53:42 PM ET by Larry
Joe,
I agree with you about rafter tables. I bought a book with rafter tables a few months ago because I thought I could pick up some tips in the opening few pages. There weren't any. I'm not even sure where that book is. I don't think most framers could decipher the rafter tables and make them work correctly or in the correct location every time. First they have to understand the "theory" behind roof framing. Basic things like the run of a common rafter is 12". Once they know why that is so, they can appreciate that a regular hip has a 16.97" run and an octagon hip has a 12.9887" run. Then they can figure out what the run is if the hip is at 30° to the rafter plates. Once you know the theory, then you can start to simplify the process and expand your repetoire of techniques, formulas, and basically the entire process.
My personal opinion here is that all of the tools mentioned in this thread have their value and place. I personally think that a book like Roof Framers bible is a good check for knowledge a framer already has, I think that the Construction Master is good in it's place. I love the thing. It has helped me to pick up some trig, understand the relationship of the parts of a roof to each other. In order to use it to it's fullest potential, you have to understand roof framing. I think that the videos that are out there have some benefit for inexperienced guys. Books like "Roof Framing" "Roof Cutter's Secrets" have their benefit because they describe different techniques for similar situations. They allow you to attack a problem from different sides.
My advice to someone who asks where to start, is buy all the books, ask all the questions you can think of, try to understand why, and practice. A lot of roof framing comes through experience, yours and those who have done this for a long time.
Joe, hope your week goes better this week.
Like some of the others here I've probably seen one- time or another every different approach to roof framing, that in my opinion was right for that particular person. My point is there's no wrong approach that works , only some a little last efficient or more time consuming . Must builder I've worked with left it up to the individual to fine their own level of knowledge needed to perform their responsibility's. Without question these builders could care less whether or not someone could read a framing square, their only concern was could this person get the job done effectively. Overall that was my experiences working as a employee, some others here might remember or see it a little different.
Here is the one I am cutting soon. Figured it all using CAD. As soon as I see the top deck snapped out and can proof the plates matching the prints, I will start cutting. If they don't match I will adjust the model to actual plate locations. The bottoms of the walls are what count to me. Top plates can be anywhere the winds blow them, and can be moved into place so they are plumb over the bottoms.
The CAD looks like it would be a great asset for the builder's of today.
Most drawings have a note attached, reading, "Do not scale dimensions from drawing"
The drawing is intended to provide placement information and dimensions are added to it to provide the necessary mathematical information. If this info is missing in the drawing or the notes, something this critical should be adressed directly by the archy. I agree that most of them will have a hard time being specific enopugh for a framer so It is important to have them set the parametees of what they want to end up with and then the framer has to do his work on site to build it..
Excellence is its own reward!
At the risk of being self promoting - Why not use roof trusses?
Less labor, gets your house under roof faster, And less need for skilled labor.
Q: How do you confuse a blonde?
A: You don't—they're born that way.
Because it is fun to stick frame a roof :-).
We've found that for the roofs we frame, it is usually the same cost to stick frame than to truss the roof. That isn't always true, but over the years it has averaged out to be that way. Stick framing also gives us some flexibility as far as changes go, and nobody around here stick frames. We have a number of options then regarding what the finished ceiling will look like. A lot of the roof we do are 8-12 and up, so you get a sizable attic space.
And did I say it's fun?
"We've found that for the roofs we frame, it is usually the same cost to stick frame than to truss the roof."
That's sick. I've had it pounded into my head for 20 years by the truss industry that framing with trusses is cheaper. So it must be true....(-:
Actually, I think this is one area where it depends on the house. And on labor costs, etc. There are no easy answers.
I don't believe a carpenter is any less skilled because he uses trusses.I don't repeat gossip, so listen closely the first time.
Boss,
"I don't believe a carpenter is any less skilled because he uses trusses."
I'm not sure I agree with that statement. I think to be considered a skilled framer, you should also be able to frame most anything that comes your way, including roofs.
I don't have much experience with trusses. I think that some of the packages I've seen guys put together did require a great deal of skill.
No single carpenter can do everything. Would you say a carpenter wasn't a "real" carpenter just because he's never hung kitchen cabinets? Or installed crown moulding?
Some areas use mainly fiber cement (or other types) of siding. Around here, it's vinyl siding or brick, exclusively. So are the guys not "real" carpenters who haven't installed one sort of siding or another?
Or maybe the guy who's never set roof trusses isn't a "real" carpenter either.
I don't think it's any one particular skill that makes someone a carpenter - It's how well you do the things you do.Flashlight: A case for holding dead batteries.
I agree with you about carpenters and how well you do the things you do. But,
"I'm not sure I agree with that statement. I think to be considered a skilled framer, you should also be able to frame most anything that comes your way, including roofs. "
I was talking specifically about framers in the sentence. I think the reason is, around here we have tried hiring out some of our framing when we are too busy to get to everything. You would be amazed at the hacks that call themselves framers. In the last 5 years we have tried a number of framing subcontractors. They have all proven to be hacks. I can't even describe to you how bad these guys are. One one house that was stick framed, these guys ended up with two fascia lines and the same wall! On a house the ironically won best in class at last years Parade of Homes, the framer put the stairway in wrong, installed the trusses incorrectly, set the one stick framed ridge out of level, you can see it from the street, and didn't nail any of his double 2x joist together so I had to pull the subfloor up, squrit some glue in and screw the joist together to stop the floor from squeaking so bad.
None of those guys should call themselves framers. I think of a framer who builds the shell of a house. That includes the roof; stick framed or trussed. He should be able to do it well. If he can, in my book he gets the label "good".
I'm not arguing this point because I stick frame roofs and therefore I must be better. No, I'm arguing because the guys around here are idiots.
I'll tell you one thing. I'm glad you participate on these forums. There is a lot I have learned about trusses by reading your posts. I have some questions for you ( I don't mean to hijack this thread). Does your company put together octagons or eyebrow roofs? Anything curved? I've only seen one Octagon tower roof that was trussed. It came from the factory with all the hips beveled and had peices attached at the bottom of the rafters so when the roof was sheathed, it would flare at the bottom.
I've done all sorts of half round trusses, concave mansard trusses, vaulted hips, 8 sided structures - You name it.
It mainly depends on whether or not it's economically feasible, and whether or not the customer wants to pay for it. The more complex the structure is, the less forgiving trusses are.
One other thing I consider is whether or not the plant guys are capable of doing the trusses well. Some places I've worked I could have some control, some I have none. I don't want to throw something out that I know the shop can't build well.
In this area we typically do the simpler roof planes on a house, then leave the bays and stuff to be stick framed. The contractors don't seem to want to pay for more complex trusses, and just look for the lowest price. (They also want their trusses fast, and don't want to invest any time in engineering) So even with trusses, there is some stick framing and skill involved.
Maybe that's part of the reason I bristled at the suggestion that guys who use trusses aren't as skilled.My reaction to intelligence is the same as my reaction to pornography. I can't define it, but I like it when I see it.
Do trusse companies normally provide a detailed shop drawing, if the system is working with conventional roof framing?
I'm not 100% sure what you're asking.
If you're asking if they will design and seal stick framing, I'd say no. I've never heard of a truss company that would do that.
If you're asking if they'll convert a house from stick framing to trusses, they do it all the time. Whether or not they automatically provide sealed drawings varies a great deal from one region to the next.If everything seems to be going well, you have obviously overlooked something.
thank you
B.H. It's been yrs since I set a panelized house , can you recommened a company , maybe a new one I don"t know about .Your company does the hard part, how come they don't panelize. Also I'm looking for the rcommended procedure for toenailing truss's to the top double plate before clips. Thanks as allways, Nails
The company I work for DOES build panelized walls. Just not very well.
Actually, I have some old customers from back when I worked at that other place who like panelized walls. I've told them that I no longer want to sell them walls, since the company's quality and service are lousy. All the company has to build wall panels on is a homemade plywood table. When they get a panel job, they just grab a couple of guys and have them build it. There is no full time crew.The guy who does the wall panel layouts for us really hates doing them, and so doesn't do a particularly good job. And our prices are way out of line, as the owners don't really want to do them. (Can't say I never was honest with you)
Much as it pains me to admit it, the place in Virden builds good wall panels. They have excellent equipment, and a staff who does nothing but panels. They have one excellent designer (Lance) and one lazy/lousy designer. (Rick) I wouldn't buy wall panels there if Rick does the layout/paperwork.
I've heard there was a place up near Bloomington who does them, but know virtually nothing about them. Don't even know the company name.
.
As for toenailing - I don't think there's a recommended procedure. Just whatever holds the truss in place until you put the clips on.What do you get when you cross a zebra with an ape man for all eternity?Tarzan Stripes Forever.
When toenailing down trusses we like put two 3-1/4" commmon nails in one side of the truss and one in the other side and try and nail thrue the holes in the metal plates or (gangnails). We use this pattern on every bearing location
Hope this helps
I agree with fearless but would like to add two things
1) If you can't nail thru the connector plates then you should consider just one on each side . You will most likely find yourself splitting the bottom chord with three nails not thru the plates.
2) when he says " bearing points" they usually will be at the exterior walls. if you start nailing like that on the interior wall. you may end up with the trusses lifting the walls up in the winter. "truss uplift" use the slotted clips for this, especially the interior walls at midspan.
fearless. Thanks for the reply , I'm sure you probably been on the walls , with the hawk blowing up your shirt and said there's gotta be a better way , when you can't get the right angle through the holes and when you do the frozen truss wood splits. We need to ask Boss Hog if he has any influence to get the manufactures to leave us a couple of holes in the "gang nailer" so when we look down at the nailed truss we can be proud ofwhat we see. Boss can do it I know he can.
nothing against trusses they definetly have there place and I use them all the time , It's just that when you go to off pitch hip roofs with several spans it ends up being much cheaper for us to stick it
and of course you get to be a true carpenter not just someone who assembles part a to part b