I am in the process of updating the HVAC system in an old concrete block home in north Florida. To do this I am adding attic access and a cat walk to allow the proper installation of some rigid duct work. The problem I am encountering is the 2X6 framing of the roof includes what appears to be temporary vertical & angled supports. The vertical supports are 2x4s, the angled supports are 1x4s both are face nailed to the framing. The roof deck is 1X4 tongue & groove. I would like to remove the vertical and angled supports to open the already very cramped attic space. You will also note from the attached picture that there is a double header that runs the length of the house just to the right of center. It appears that the ceiling joists do not span the width of the home.
My question to the forum is will removing the stated framing compromise the roof structure? Having a semi comfortable staging area will encourage a much needed quality duct installation. The current HVAC system is basically 80% flex duct and has a very inefficient air distribution.
Thanks for your time..
Replies
Is there a bearing wall underneath all those braces?
Looks like there should be. All those braces are being used to help support the roof.
How far are the 2x6's spanning. Removing them would possibly make the roof sag.
Those braces take the weight of the roof and put it somewhere else, on a wall, etc..
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Those aren't trusses - That's stick framing.
I doubt any of the menmbers are structural, since they aren't on every rafter. The beam off to one side makes me think there's no bearing wall, as Matt was suggesting there might be.
In general, I'd really rather see something in person before I give out structural advice. But these just look like something that someone added on for the heck of it.
Thanks for your quick response. The doubled up 2X6 beam is roughly on top of a hallway wall that runs most of the length of the house. So the hallway wall might be supporting some or all the weight of the beam.
BTW this place is a single story concrete block house on a slab.
Not structural supports? WEEEELLLLLL, that is a very low pitch roof and that means spread! Any support given that ridge board could prove very important on a flat-for-all-practical-purposes- roof.
If those were intended to be bearing vertical loads, they would not be nailed alongside. They would be cut to fit in under and between. The only structural load they could bear vertically is the little bit the shear of the nails could handle.The roof can do the 15# needed for Florida snow loads without those members.;)
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More or less agree. Of course (no attitude in my tone or "of course") members scabbed on are not the same as let in or in-line. But low slope roofs are just plain not as stable as or reasonable pitches. Makes me nervious. As it it the verticles would and do help abit. But you are right.
The vertical members might provide some support IF there was something under them. Since there's a beam a couple of feet away that's unlikely.
(A verticle meber under a peak is in tension if there's no support under it)The diagonal members wouldn't keep it from spreading. So I stand by what I said.
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A vertical member with support under it is in compression. A vertical member with no support is in neither tension or compression it is just hanging.
In this case the member is tacked to the ceiling joist which will carry some load even if a bearing wall is located a couple of feet to the side. Not a great situation to be sure.
" A vertical member with no support is in neither tension or compression it is just hanging. "
No, it's in tension.
I've designed trusses for 24 years - This isn't a hobby of mine.
I can show you the calcs on a truss tomorrow if ya like.
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On the side, with your field trips to the gulf coast, have you noticed any significant differences from back home, or are you on finish details more than frame in the volunteer crews?
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I haven't done any framing on any volunteer trips I've been on.I've heard that in the south most houses are stick framed. And I've heard it's because labor costs are lower down there. But that's second hand info, so I can't guarantee it's true.
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95% are stick framed around here.two ways to screw up concrete 1) concrete driver 2) concrete finisher
Partly true. also because they have a longer season. Up north, with the need to get closed up before a snow, the more time saved, the more it compounds.But also the live loads required in the south are less.I saw almost all stick framing exclusively in Texas when I was there, but probably at least half the roofs in Florida were on trusses, and that was in the seventies.
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Only stick framing I've seen down here in NW FL is truss, unless you are building a monstrosity.
Thats a hell of an oxymoron.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
I guess I meant unless it is a monstrosity, it would be truss. Monstrosity would be stick.
Wow twice in a row!
Is a monstrosity gonna be a truss roof or a stick roof?Try this..pick one
(A) a monstrosity would have a truss roof
(B) a monstrosity would have a stick roofjust trying to comprehend catfishese (G)
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
my correction of a correction is (B) For illustration of a monstrosity see Huck's post with the big ugly roof.
According to a former helper, I don't even know what I'm saying half the time. That just meant he didn't know.
Edited 1/16/2008 11:41 am ET by catfish
Ok, now I gotcha.
That wasn't so bad now was it?Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
yes
LOL,
"Only stick framing I've seen down here in NW FL is truss,"Stick framing is not truss framing....??????
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Well a string held by one end in between two fingers is in tension via it's own weight. The force is next to meaningless. So if spliting hairs is a game . . .
Even if the force involved is small, it's still tension.You said the vertical was SUPPORTING the peak. That's not at all true.
I used to be clueless about math, but I turned that around 360 degrees.
Well your grasp of the obvious is astounding!
As for the second part, of course it is! Good lord man. Transfering any load "even if small" is transferred. Gee someone else said something like that. If there is a bearing wall below even two feet away, as stated by the poster, the ceiling joist will carry load. GIve it up man.
You haven't said anything of substance on this. It's kind of like watching a dachshund bark threateningly at a bear. You are the one who needs to give it up.But if you like to entertain, go right ahead.
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Typcial Piffin always looking to insult. How typical. Get a life. Pitiful, just pitiful.
Sorry - I'm trying to see things from your point of view. But I can't get my head stuck that far up my a$$.
The time for action is past. Now is the time for senseless bickering.
So you admit you walk around with your head up your ####? Just not that far up your ####? Your words not mine. I would never use such language.
Pretty are to actually build anything of consequence with your head in that configuration. But, then again I have read your posts, so I understand.
what you have is not supporting vertical loads. You don't have much of that in Florida anyways.
But what all that toothpick limber is doing is the same thing as collar ties do in preventing uplift in tornadoes and hurricanes.
So the thing to do is to add collar ties, then take the sawzall to the members you have in your way there.
A collar tie is a horizontal member nailed to both opposite raters just below the ridge. This would reduce your headroom by 4-5 inches at the peak, but open all that other space.
You would gain a heck of a lot more efficiency by blowing in ten inches of cellulose insulation and making sure you have proper ventilation there than by re-doing the HVAC
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First off thanks everyone for all the responses. This has been a very informative exchange. Piffin I like your collar tie suggestion, I plan to go with it. One more question, will the collar tie better prevent the uplift if I fit it between the rafters rather than surface nailing them?<!----><!----><!---->
Also, I agree that the attic needs way more insulation and I intend on doing that after the upgrade. Besides the poor air distribution the system is also leaking Freon and is about 25 years old. It is pretty much on its last leg…maybe one more cooling season if I am lucky. <!----><!---->
fasten the collar ties side of the rafters. The earlier comment about fitting in under was for member in compression.Also pay attention to my previous post about using structural screws in that attic instead of nails.
You'd be OK with a pneumatic but hand driving nails would wake and shale the ceiling joists and you'd have repairs to the finish side later.
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I would do as piffin said and use collar ties, and I would fix that lack of sheathing in the upper right cornher of your pic. Looks like the under side of the tar paper.
zach, I think what you are looking at is not the underside of tar Paper, but rather the cut out area for a roof vent.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I saw that black hole at sheathing and assumed it was a tophat roof vent, but now that you bring it up, I see no light at it. Maybe the last reroof covered all the vents!?!?Also on looking again, I note that all the framing is SYP. After years of baking in the heat up there, they will be rock hard. He wants to use screws to fasten the collar ties or the pounding with a hammer will loosen sheetrock on the ceiling.
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Yeah, if that is a hole for a ventilator it no longer exists.To your second point I agree 100% as a remodeler I have learned an extra hour using screws saves you a couple of days fixing nail pops!!
Edited 1/16/2008 7:15 pm ET by zachariah
Maybe the pic was taken after dark?
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Also staple those wires to the top of the ceiling joists to prevent snagging.
just a thought, not sure if I'm right or not but could the vertical 2x4's be taking some sag out of the ceiling joists?
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It's the feeling of falling further behind."
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