I keep getting different answers from local talent, wondering what you all think. Roof is 12:12 pitch, and will have either 40 year architectural shingles or 26ga steel roofing over one layer of 30# felt.
Thanks, Mark
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Plywood or OSB 16" or 24" centers?
Friends help you move.
Real friends help you move bodies!
Sorry, got interrupted. OSB, 24" centers.
Then definitely 5/8"
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Use 5/8" plywood. It is much better in the long run.
5/8"
I see a pattern here... Thanks guys, much appreciated.
I see no problem with 1/2" plywood on 24" centers. It's dnoe on probably 3/4 of the houses around here and I've never seen any problems caused by it.Using T&G on a roof is absolutely nuts, IMHO.
I would have made a good Pope. [Richard Nixon]
i recently came from the pacific nw where the general consensus was to use 1/2 " osb 24oc. with no H clips. i thought it sucked. down the road when the roof needs replacing so will the roof sheathing. are you finehomebuilding or fineshackbuilding. when i put a piece of sheathing down i want it to be good for 100 years, not for the life of the shingle. here in the northeast we use 5/8 with H clips on 16oc.
I live in the PNW and yes we do generally use 1/2" but clips or blocking are required by code. I'm also curious. What would cause the 1/2" sheathing to deteriorate so as to necessitate replacing it in 20 years that wouldn't affect the 5/8"?
first of all i want to apologize for my harshness. i know a lot of great builders in the pnw and i'm sure this wasn't the standard everywhere.
secondly, i believe that 5/8 roof sheating is more cost effective and produces a better product in the long term. it's thicker and stronger ie. less prone to sagging down the road. when the life of the asphault expires chances are if you use 1/2 you'll(someone will) end up having to put another layer on anyway before re-roofing.
if this is not a concern and it follows code than go for it. i just wouldn't personally.
You don't hurt my feelings commenting on PNW builders. Around me anyway there are some really awful builders, although its probably not as bad in the bigger cities.
I asked about the advantages of 5/8" because I have used 1/2" without really thinking much about it. 5/8" is probably the way to go.
30 + yrs building in the PNW.
I used to use 5/8 when doing my own contracting. 1/2" was what most builders supplied.
Code allowed 1/2" when loads didn't exceed 50 lbs/ft. (10 dead/ 40 live)
@ 24" o.c. Grade stamp on the sheathing reflected this.
The biggest draw back I saw to OSB at 24" O.C. was the early versions always showed the sheet perimiter through the roofing material if the sheets got wet during installation (edge swelling).
Never saw a reroof that needed to have the sheeting replaced as soon as the roofing did unless the roof had failed in it's job to protect the sheathing if the roofing failed to that extent any sheathing will fail. Most roofs here are gun nailed/stapled not hand nailed and have been for 20+ yrs..
I don't own the latest codes , but this was all listed out in the span tables for roof and floor sheathing when I was doing strictly residential and had the then latest code books.
Finehomebuilding or finehomeshacking! That's great, it speaks volumes. There's much too much finehomeshacking out. And worse than that, there are buyers out there for that kind of stuff.
Hey Bud quit dissin the great N.W. I think it's sort-a like anywhere you go..(Bad help is easy to find & there's a hack contractor around every corner)
i know many talented builders in the pnw, as i said in a later post. i don't think this was the norm. anyone who frames on 24oc and uses 1/2" sheeting with no h clips has no right building a dog house. that was my only point.
i know many talented builders in the pnw, as i said in a later post. i don't think this was the norm. anyone who frames on 24oc and uses 1/2" sheeting with no h clips has no right building a dog house. that was my only point.
I'm in the PNW and we've always used h-clips, 24" oc 7/16" OSB (always meaning early 90's) :-) A guy I framed with started framing about 8 years ago for a builder in our area who said not to use h-clips. But he is known as kind of a hack.
Everyone else uses 7/16" w/ h clips. We may use 5/8", we'll see.
<I'm in the PNW and we've always used h-clips, 24" oc 7/16" OSB (always meaning early 90's) :-) A guy I framed with started framing about 8 years ago for a builder in our area who said not to use h-clips. But he is kno wn as kind of a hack.
Everyone else uses 7/16" w/ h clips. We may use 5/8", we'll see.>
that sounds fine to me.personally i like to frame conventional lumber at 16oc with clips, and i joist at 24oc with clips both with 5/8. it's just persoanl preferrence, as well as the area standard.what area you are in is going to largely influence what methods you use, materials, work habits of employees etc. and they should. there is no wrong answer here (obviously other than a total breech of code) and i'm highly skeptical of anyone who says there is.
having worked many places in the country i think some methods are better than others. that's why i love this sight so much. if there is any question on alternetive methods all you have to do is ask and you're sure to get 50 different answers.
on a different note ive never used beveled plates, and was wondering if you knew a good source to read up on them. it seems like it saves a lot of time. that and the badass chain saw accessory. lol
If you ever want to get into using the chainsaw, email me. I think that Headcutter from Big Foot was $375, but it was custom. I don't remember now what it cost.
Beveled plates were a great way to do I-joists for us. I'd do that again in a heartbeat. Cut a 2x4 through the saw to you can use both sides and it ain't much work at all.
bozz... kinda shootin from the hip, ain't we ?
you're projecting..
me.. i've used 1/2" with clips on 24" framing... didn't like it one bit
2d... in high wind code areas... your choice is solid blocking at the perimeters and 4' in at all roof edges.......plus at the ridge.... or.... you can use T&G...
CanPly makes a 1/2" T& G but no one stocks it..
so that leaves us with 5/8" T& G..
now ...me.. i've seen problems with 1/2" at 24" but no problems at 16"
for at least 20 years our rule of thumb has been 1/2" with clips for 16"
and 5/8 with clips for 24".. only now we use 5/8" T&G
Advantech has a new product which i'm looking into that uses a special tape on all seams... eliminates clips, T&G & underlayment felts...
stay tunedMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
The Huber product using the seam tape has been discussed a few times here and at JLC. I'd have to say that the majority seem completely unconvinced. For one, I'd like to know howyou flash skylights, pipes, etc., without felt to tie into? Maybe Huber says you tape the flashing to the deck. Sounds a little too good to be true. I know that the small builder has to be looking for every possible way of saving steps, but roofing felt is not something I am looking to eliminate, and I don't think I could get a roofer here to skip it without skipping the warranty too.
We speak differning languages. I HATE nailing my tabs on a (n) OS product to secure my roof.
OS has a bounce, I use a short nail, mostly , 1" or 1.25, copper..look at my fingers, I have to hand nail my tabs through a thickness of .o16 then the undr lay......clips on 24/centers w/ 1/2'' sheathing will NOT get you ME nailing a copper roof.
I am telling ya, it is almost impossible to nail off a cleat on a deck like that. We did have ONE roof take off in the wind, a few yrs ago...guess what? 1/2" OSB on two foot center trusses?
The guy that installed it, had no clue, that the tabs needed screws, cuz banging away at the dead zone betwween the trusses, was pointless, and even detrimental to the last nail...
I swear, I could write a book.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
The secret to a long life is knowing when its time to go. M. Shocked
Man, I tried to follow that.... read it twice. The only thing I commented on was the Huber no-felt system. Hit me one more time.
I wont nail a copper standing seam roof on OSB with out a sign off from some one....if the some biatch is 24'' centers and 1/2'' OSB..it bounces and makes my fingers get sore.
sorry, I was back on Capn Mac's thread, we speak in tongues...
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
The secret to a long life is knowing when its time to go. M. Shocked
Gotcha. I have a hard time speaking English sometimes, so I can dig it.
We hand nail, no guns, Mostly fillup what the first 3 courses are, when we gutter.
On a reroof/w copper, I never see the edge , cept for coming and going up and down.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
The secret to a long life is knowing when its time to go. M. Shocked
Mike,
I got a sample of the Zip sheathing for walls. The tape is pretty heavy duty, but I'm scared of that product. If the sheathing was available here, I'd be inclined to try it and still use housewrap because of the amount of moisture we get up here.
<Using T&G on a roof is absolutely nuts, IMHO.>
LOL - I can only imagine how hard that would be, alone. I do use the "H" clips on 1/2" ply on 24" OC, tho'.
Forrest
5/8" T & G - Advantek is the only way to go.
>> 5/8" T & G - Advantek is the only way to go. <<Can you explain why it's the only way to go? Is this code where you're from that you have to use T&G for roof sheathing?Joe Carola
I have found that Adventek has a number of advantages over plywood as a sheathing material and offers far greater strength structurally than typical plywood. The tongue and groove assembly offers greater resistance to wind lift and movement and the stability and uniformity of engineered lumber is far superior to that of plywood, which can be variable. Also, the tongue and groove assembly makes for a tighter fit along seams and in addition, allows for greater speed of assembly as no one has to manage fooling with plywood clips. Also Adventek has far superior water resistance. Also, Adventek carries a 50 year warranty on all their sheathing products.I think that's a pretty good sale for me. I've peeled up and demoed many a delaminated plywood roof, but I've never yet seen such with Adventek. We use it on all our frame-ups.One disadvantage is that its heavy and thus requires a little more umph and cooperation to get them onto the roof for nailing down.
"The tongue and groove assembly offers greater resistance to wind lift..."
All the T&G does is connect the 2 sheets together. The fasteners still have to hold the sheets down.
I once helped put 3/4 T&G on a roof at the insistence of a HO. I was a HUGE pain in the butt, and I'll never do it again.
Democrats think privacy amounts to aborting babies. But your money, now that's everyone's business. [Mona Charen]
It can be a little inconvenient, but not that hard once you are used to it. Nothing to judge based on a one-off job.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Boss, You may want to "reread' that and "edit" for content....or not !!!
The "Bite me" phrase gets tossed out here once in a while - It's kinda like guys on a jobsite calling each other morons, or something like that.I think Piffin knows how to take the "insult".
Do bulldogs get flat noses from chasing parked cars?
>> I have found that Adventek has a number of advantages over plywood as a sheathing material and offers far greater strength structurally than typical plywood. <<Sorry but I’m not sold nor will I ever be sold on using T&G for sheathing. There's know way that it is structurally stronger than plywood in my eyes. When I first started framing 23 years ago we used 1/2" on the roof, then we started using 5/8" about 17 years.Where do you live that it requires T&G for your roofs to fight against wind uplifts? Or is it a requirement?>> allows for greater speed of assembly as no one has to manage fooling with plywood clips. <<I never use plywood clips. I've only used them on trussed roofs that were 24" centers. I'm telling you right now IMHO that you can sheath WITHOUT T&G and those houses will last the same. Unless you are required by code which I doubt you're not sheathing with T&G won’t make a difference. You and a couple of other people have mentioned this before using T&G for sheathing roofs. You really don't need too. If you feel better doing so then keep doing it but it's not making a difference because if it was the rest of the world would be doing it.
Joe Carola
if you framed in wind zone 2 ( 110 mph ) or 3 (120 mph ) ( Coastal RI )...... you'd switch to 5/8 T&G after your first house... you'd save money on materials
& money on time
because the blocking requirements get pretty silly if you don't
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 1/16/2007 7:25 pm ET by MikeSmith
>> if you framed in wind zone 2 ( 110 mph ) or 3 (120 mph ) ( Coastal RI )...... you'd switch to 5/8 T&G after your first house... you'd save money on materials& money on timebecause the blocking requirements get pretty silly if you don't <<Mike,Like I said to Girlbuilder, is it CODE where she's from to use T&G on the roof? She didn’t answer that. It sounds like she's just doing it because she thinks that it's better. That's fine, but if it's not code and wind zone 2, she really doesn't need to use T&G. Is it code where you are, and do you use T&G on the roof?If I framed in wind zone 2 or until I see a set of plans the specks T&G for roof sheathing I would have to use T&G, until then I'll never change.Joe Carola
Edited 1/16/2007 7:59 pm ET by Framer
Joe, I don't see that any body is asking you to change.But this is a discussion of what is better.16"oc is better than 24"oc
Advantec is better than ply or OSB
5/8" is better than 1/2"
T&G is better than square edge.It's just a matter of folks deciding how far up the ladder they want to be. Good, better, best - you pays your money and you takes your choices
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
yes , joe, it's code... IRC 2003 with RI Amendments
we have 3 wind zones... (1) is 100 mph
(2) is 110 mph ( my town )
and (3) is 120 mph everything south of us....impact resistant windows & the Simpson Rep died and went to heaven
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"16"oc is better than 24"oc
Advantec is better than ply or OSB
5/8" is better than 1/2"
T&G is better than square edge."
Says who?
I'm willing to go along with the idea that Anvantech is better quality plywood. But does that really matter if it doesn't get soaked with water several times?
The rest is just subjective opinion if you can't back it up with a reason.
For instance - The only reason I've seen for anyone saying that 5/8 ply is better is because they like it. That's not good enough for me.
A sharp youngster with four years of progressively diverse experience could often be a better bet than the ten-year seasoned pro, who has in reality repeated one year of experience ten times. [Martin Yate, Hiring the Best]
"Says who?"I think I said it! That good enough for you?
;)"does that really matter if it doesn't get soaked with water several times?"Adavantec does not get soaked with water. The glues in it make it nearly impervious to water, the reason why we all like it so much. I've had it on floors for dozens of rains with no troubnle. I've seen it on floors where it had ice and snow all winter with no discernable effects. The stuff is as near bulletproof as you can get without going to iron or titanium.If you can't figure out why 5/8" ply is better than 1/2" ply or why 5/8" advantec is better than 1/2" advantec, you should not be designing trusses, old boy. That is not a matter of subjective opinion! None of what I said is. You can quantify any of it.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"That is not a matter of subjective opinion! None of what I said is. You can quantify any of it."
If that's what you think, then YOU need to quantify it. I don't plan to do it for you, because I don't agree with you.
I have a friend name Dennis. Both his parents are midgets, but not Dennis. He's a midget dwarf. He's the guy who poses for trophies.
OK Bob.
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Roof sheathing: the "NEW" roof venting.............http://logancustomcopper.com
http://grantlogan.net/
It's like the whole world's walking pretty and you can't find no room to move. - the Boss
I married my cousin in Arkansas - I married two more when I got to Utah. - the Gourds
"OK Bob."
Bite me.
The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it. [Einstein]
HEY!!! don't question it. THIS IS AMERICA!!! Housewives drive $50k Cadillac SUVs that get 12 MPG so they can have a place to put their kid's soccer equipment. Office workers drive F350 dualees because they have a tool belt and they can afford it. "Never know when you might need to haul a sheet of plywood!" And I'm bummed because I only have a 42" plasma TV! So YES, more, and bigger, is always better!!! :-) Don't you know anything???? :-)
>> But this is a discussion of what is better.16"oc is better than 24"oc
Advantec is better than ply or OSB
5/8" is better than 1/2"
T&G is better than square edge. <<Piffin,I realize that.I'm just saying that unless your in zone 2 or whatever Mike's in and it's CODE that you have to use t&g on a roof then use it. If not, it's just a waste of time, money and material to use T&G on a roof because it's not necessary at all. If that's the case then people will start using t&g on the walls or start framing 8" centers or whatever.So as far as using t&g on a roof and it being better than square edge where it's NOT required,it's not true and it's NOT better or better quality and structurally stronger. You just don't need it.Joe Carola
i'll agree that in probably 80% of roofs it is not needed
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Excellent points. I think we get to emotional sometimes on thinking that our way is the only way. There are ways, and there are better ways based on our experiences and call backs.
How does Advantek compare in cost to plywood (my preference) and OSB?
JoeA:Adventek runs a few dollars more per sheet and is heavier to haul around, that's a fact. 7/16" OSB wall sheathing holds its own against ply and sometimes is competitive. As you know, the market swings on that stuff.One other thing that brings up to my mind is "Norboard", which are 10' (I believe?) wall sheathing panels. I saw some ads for it, seemed like an awesome way to go for walls, in that you get complete coverage for an average wall with one stand-up (although some might debate the strength of a stand-up as opposed to running across the studs) and also it is rated very high against windloads. But alas, it is not available around here yet (Boston area). So exposure comes with availability I assume. Adventek is pretty widely used around here.
Adventek runs a few dollars more per sheet and is heavier to haul around, that's a fact. 7/16" OSB wall sheathing holds its own against ply and sometimes is competitive. As you know, the market swings on that stuff.
One other thing that brings up to my mind is "Norboard", which are 10' (I believe?) wall sheathing panels. I saw some ads for it, seemed like an awesome way to go for walls, in that you get complete coverage for an average wall with one stand-up (although some might debate the strength of a stand-up as opposed to running across the studs) and also it is rated very high against windloads. But alas, it is not available around here yet (Boston area). So exposure comes with availability I assume. Adventek is pretty widely used around here.
I thought I'd make a couple of comments. Right now, as of Friday, Advantech is $5/sheet more in our area than same size orange edge LP subfloor. We'll still use it in the winter.
I'm going to look into Windstorm again http://www.windstormosb.com/home.html I couldn't find it on their site, but I think this sheathing doesn't come in 8', 9', 10', but comes 97 1/4" etc.
Also about standing sheathing vertically or horizontally, the research I've done and conversations I've had with our engineer, it really doesn't practically matter because the code doesn't assume a fully sheathed house. It assumes certain panels are braced wall panels or braced wall lines. But most of us fully sheathe the house, so we pick up all that extra sheathing.
The APA just sent me an email with some testing they are doing that demonstrates this and also if you read their article about the small walls next to garage doors, you can most of the time eliminate holddowns and stick with smaller walls.
For wall sheathing we only use 9' and 10' panels, this way we can overlap the rim. Any other method wastes time and is not as strong, unless you go horizontal and then block all your panel edges, which does use up a lot of 2x scrap, but isn't much fun :-)
""The APA just sent me an email with some testing they are doing that demonstrates this and also if you read their article about the small walls next to garage doors, you can most of the time eliminate holddowns and stick with smaller walls."" Tim,
Any chance you could post that e-mail , and what article are you referring to ? I would love to read whatever article it is.
I deleted it, but I forwarded it to my brother. I'll see if he has it.
I never could get that email, but I think this link will take you to the same thing http://www.wallbracing.org/news.cfm?newsid=11
Tim,
Thank You . Already starting to read the information.
All.......I got it......after scanning 132 post's I think we all should be using 1x6's or1x8's.
Yes,
just be certain that they are matched boards though on 16" centers!
slate........hehe thought the next post would say oh no........should be 1x10's or 1x12's , thier stronger you know. and just exactly what length they should be according to code .......laughing at myself, hope others can smile.
I was only busting your chops a little-wouldn't expect two people to agree in this thread ,would ya?
Nope, gotta be 2 xstock . ;-)
dove......."nope gotta be 2x stock" naaaay Building inspector said. and archy confirmed, it's gotta be 2x WOOD. :)
Durn... busted again. lol
I wish I could get 1 in. T&G ply, reasonably priced, then I could build the bestest house ever.(;-}
Dave
How about taking two sheets of 1/2", glue and screw with 3/4" screws. Leave offset by 1/2" to create a lap joint on the long side.....Your good to go!!!!!!!!!After all its only your time we're talkin' about!
We once lived in a Deck House. A preengineered, packaged, post and beam system all out of a factory near Taunton, MA, it had THREE INCH THICK tongue and groove cedar planks for its roof sheathing.
Still probably wouldn't satisfy these guys here.
I think they are all big shareholders of the forest products guys like Huber, Weyerhaueser, UFP, etc.
And all their projects are built cost-plus.
I'm surprised they all ride around in these tinny pickup trucks with .023 steel unibody construction. They should get John Deere rides, instead.
;-)
I'm using Advantech but when I tried to use the T&G my roof framer seemed to be confused about how to put it together without clips.
I know Advantech used to have some info on T&G for roofing at their site but this time it was all gone and they are pushing sheething for roofs.
But I'm having trouble getting the sheething and the T&G sounds like a stronger roof to me. Is their some trick to it. Live in NW FL - no snow, lots of heat.Thanks
Tigger
>> I'm using Advantech but when I tried to use the T&G my roof framer seemed to be confused about how to put it together without clips. <<If for some reason other than code you are using t&g for your roof sheathing and your framer was confused, then you'd better ask your framer what he was drinking if he even thought that he was supposed to use clips with t&g.....>> I know Advantech used to have some info on T&G for roofing at their site but this time it was all gone and they are pushing sheething for roofs. <<What info could advantech possibly have for putting down t&g roof sheathing? It's self explanatory....."Stick the tongue in the grove"......... I don't get it.>> But I'm having trouble getting the sheething and the T&G sounds like a stronger roof to me. Is their some trick to it. Live in NW FL - no snow, lots of heat.<<Unless it required by code or what zone your in, it’s not stronger. No there's no trick to installing t&g. It's the same as if you use t&g for deck, just more of a PITA because you're on an angle.
Joe Carola
"Unless it required by code or what zone your in, it’s not stronger."i'm sure you mis-spoke here, but it is always stronger, it's just not always required by code.remember that code is just the MINIMUM requirement to get the job done, not the best way to do something.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,I would say that the t&g is stronger then SE. I'm just saying that it doesn't make a roof any stronger then using square edge. Some people are implying that it does.Joe Carola
"What info could advantech possibly have for putting down t&g roof sheathing? It's self explanatory....."Stick the tongue in the grove"......... I don't get it."Maybe you're wrong, maybe you slide the grove around the tunge? I guess it depends on what side of the roof you're on, lol. busta :0)"It ain't da seafood dat makes ya fat anyway -- it's da batta!"
joe.. i'm trying to ignore some of what you say.. but you keep saying that T&G is NOT stronger than square edge... that 's not true
T&G is a lot stronger than SE... just think about your subfloor.. isn't your T&G 3/4 subfloor a lot stroonger , with less deflection than your old 3/4 SE ?
T&G is RATED as being stronger than SE
NOW.. is it overkill ?
yes ... and no
in tract housing, yes .. in custom housing .. no .. it's common..
all the custom builders i know use 5/8 when they have trusses 24" oc..
and they used clips
now , thye save a step ( the clips ) and most have switched to T&G
and that is also true in Zone 1, which doesn't require blocking at the perimeter
anyways.. i thought you didn't sheath.. don't you have sheathing crews do all your sheathing ?
me.. i'm trying to talk my lumber yard into bring in some CanPly T&G, which they make in 1/2".. i'd probably switch to 19.2 " oc with that stuff.. it looks to be a very high quality 4-plyMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,I agree with t&g being stronger for a subfloor especially after we glue it down. I still say it's not any stronger and wont make a roof last any longer in places where it's not code or zone 2 like where you're from. It WILL not hold a roof together or make a roof last longer where it’s not zoned for it!Then why don't you guys start sheathing walls with t&g??>> NOW.. is it overkill ?
yes ... and no
in tract housing, yes .. in custom housing .. no .. it's common.. <<I thought you're zone 2, so everyone has to use t&g no matter what. Why not with tract housing?Or are you saying that it's common anywhere for custom homes to use t&g on a roof? That's not true here and there are custom homes here.>> all the custom builders i know use 5/8 when they have trusses 24" oc.. and they used clips
now , thye save a step ( the clips ) and most have switched to T&G and that is also true in Zone 1, which doesn't require blocking at the perimeter<<I never frame 24" centers, so I don't have to use clips. The crazy thing is though this past summer, I framed my first addition with the 2x12 joists at 24" centers.>> anyways.. i thought you didn't sheath.. don't you have sheathing crews do all your sheathing ? <<Yes, I do have sheathing crews but I still sheath myself. What difference does that make anyway who sheaths? We still wouldn't put t&g on a roof anyway unless something changes.Joe Carola
so, joe.. if i spec'd T&G 5/8 for the roof, and you had the contract , you'd build it , right ?
things change.. some things take hold... other things never catch on
i remeber when drywall was king in RI.... now, everything is blueboard & skimcoat..
the only place we use drywall is in some repair jobs.. or in commercial work
i did a house right after the new wind codes went into effect.. the BI made me put 2x blocking at the fascia, 4' up from the eaves, 4' in from the rakes and both sides of the ridge where we cut out for a ridge vent
about half way thru he told me they had an amendment allowing T&G roof sheathing instead of blocking... that is when RI switched to T&G.. all the yards stock it now.. and Advantech is cleaning up.. they're about the only ones who jumped on the 5/8"T&G bandwagon
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
>> so, joe.. if i spec'd T&G 5/8 for the roof, and you had the contract , you'd build it , right ? <<Mike,If you were an Architect and specked it I would build it and charge for it. I would also say that you were nuts around here to do it, but I would do it.My framing changes when the plans change. There have been quite a few changes in framing over the past 20 years. So far t&g on a roof isn't one of them. If that's the next change, then I will be doing it.I've never even seen Advantech before. You think t&g will be on walls next?Joe Carola
"If you were an Architect and specked it I would build it and charge for it."Everybody should charge for what they do, but what has being an archi or not got to do with it? If he is writing your check, you do what he specifies even if he is still in second grade.
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>> Everybody should charge for what they do, but what has being an archi or not got to do with it? If he is writing your check, you do what he specifies even if he is still in second grade. <<Piffin,As long as his plans were approved from the town whether he's an Architect or a Homeowner's second grader who drew them, I will do what's specified on the approved plans.Joe Carola
For one: having your plans approved by the town ain't going to buy you anything but possibly a hot coffee from the town inspector when you are at the court house and he's meeting you to testify that muncipalities are waived of all responsibility for house plans and code does not imply liability for design. And the second grader is in school and if he's designing for you, you might want to get back and join him or someone else is gonna take you to school.<em>Housewives drive $50k Cadillac SUVs that get 12 MPG so they can have a place to put their kid's soccer equipment.</em>Ok, I have to put this in here, because I guess being the only female here I have to wonder why there's still women that marry houses and I'm tired so I'm gonna vent and say this reminds me that everytime I'm seen driving one of my own trucks, lettered and all, there's some dickweed who says to himself, "Oh there she is driving her husband's truck around."Anyway, I can't believe that apparently so few people have experience with Adventek. Piffin is right on the money with how the stuff works.Also, as for making the roof stronger: Once it is nailed to the roof, it becomes part of the <em>roof system</em> and therefore it does make the roof as a part of the entire building envelope, stronger. Assuming of course, you follow the nailing pattern and use the proper fasteners and if you can read dots and letters that shouldn't be too hard.I used 1/2" ply on a small addition roof recently as a part of a 'restore as is' project and let me tell you, I was highly unimpressed and affirmed of my past experience with plywood -- its unstable, weak and can't hold a candle to Adventek.Now, it does help to know that 5/8 Adventek "roofing" goes on the roof, 3/4" Adventek "Flooring" goes on the floor and 7/16" OSB is wall sheathing and the three should not be mixed, or confused. I have been on a job we were asked to repair where such confusion seemed to have occurred with the former "builders" (I use that term loosely in this instance).I think possibly if you put plywood clips in the ground the right direction up, you can stick pieces of dunnage ply or OSB in them and they can serve as a nice abstract art display in your garden. Or you can take a 2" paint brush and make a nice jobsite sign.Have a nice day you all.
>> <em>Housewives drive $50k Cadillac SUVs that get 12 MPG so they can have a place to put their kid's soccer equipment.</em> <<I never said that to you. A far as everything else you said, you lost me.>> 5/8" T & G - Advantek is the only way to go. <<>> Now, it does help to know that 5/8 Adventek "roofing" goes on the roof, 3/4" Adventek "Flooring" goes on the floor and 7/16" OSB is wall sheathing and the three should not be mixed, or confused. <<Where are you getting this information from?I'll ask you this one more time. Is it code for you where you live to use T&G for your roof sheathing? Yes or no?If the answer is no, then if you think it will make your roof stronger and your roof will last longer then a roof sheathed with square edge, that's fine. If it's NOT CODE your roof will not last any longer. I've been a framing contractor for over 20 years and I've never once seen a roof specked with T&G sheathing.If you like it so much then why don't you sheath your walls with T&G?The day I get a set of plans with T&G sheathing specked on it that will be the day when I use it.>> Anyway, I can't believe that apparently so few people have experience with Adventek. Piffin is right on the money with how the stuff works. <<Why is it so hard to believe that peole don't us Advantech and that people don't sheath roofs with T&G? Piffin's right about a lot of things. I use 3/4" T&G all floor joists. I use 5/8" square edge on all roofs. Using T&G on a roof isn't going to make the roof last longer or isn't going to make it any stronger. Where's the roof going to go or the sheathing going to go whether you use square edge or T&G?Joe Carola
joe... t&g will make the roof stronger... it's the equal of solid blocking...
sooner or later you will get a job that has to comply with high wind design.. just think.. you'll already know the most cost effective path is T&G roof sheathing... cause we've already been there , done that...
just think about the next job you get on Block Island ( Zone 3.... 120 mph )
don't you ever get any work down Jersey shores ?.... that's gotta be high wind design areaMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
...and in summation, let me point out that the only ones arguing that 5/8" Advantec T&G is not superior in every way are those who have never seen it, let alone used any of it.
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I'll try that on my next chicken house. :)
>> t&g will make the roof stronger... it's the equal of solid blocking...<<Mike,Stronger than what? In your area because of your 120 mph winds? Once the plywood is down and nailed using SE or T&G in MY AREA, what strength are you talking about? Where's the roof going to go? Are you talking about wind, trees falling on it, heavy snow caving the sheathing in............what? Where do you stop?Why not put T&G on the walls if people think that in MY AREA you need T&G on a roof..why not the walls and say that the walls will be stronger also???>> don't you ever get any work down Jersey shores ?..that's gotta be high wind design area <<Yes, I framed a house down the shore right across the street from the ocean...........5/8" SE on the roof.Joe Carola
Edited 1/20/2007 12:31 am ET by Framer
> If it's NOT CODE your roof will not last any longer.
So, by that logic, the cheapest 3-tab shingle roof will last just as long as a slate roof?
I know you're an experienced builder, but you're coming across like a brand new homeowner that equates "to code" with "the best". We all know better, right?
Granted, 1/2" plywood, or maybe even 3/8 OSB, might be plenty strong enough for the application, and meet code. But to blindly say that if it's TO CODE it therefore is as strong or long-lasting as any other alternative flies in the face of the mentality that this board represents - namely that the CODE is the MINIMUM ACCEPTABLE, but not necessarily the best or strongest.
Don
>> I know you're an experienced builder, but you're coming across like a brand new homeowner that equates "to code" with "the best". We all know better, right? <<Donny Boy,I'll say it one more time since you haven't got a clue. I'm talking about people who are using T&G on a roof where it IS NOT REQUIRED OR NOT CODE OR NOT ZONE 2-3-4-5........ IT IS NOT NECASSARY, PERIOD!!!I use 5/8" sheathing on all my roofs. It's more than enough as far as strength and the industry standards in MY area. Mike Smith is in zone 2 and he has to use 5/8" T&G. I don't, Period! I build quality homes and additions. Where is a roof that I frame using 5/8" sheathing going to go that a roof using 5/8" T&G not going to go in MY AREA?Why don't you start using 3/4" T&G on a roof and on walls since what I do is MINIMUM ACCEPTABLE in your inexperienced eyes? You sound like some idiot that thinks that using T&G is the only way to go zone 2 or not and everyone else is building cheap homes. Wake up son!!!Joe Carola
Edited 1/20/2007 12:02 am ET by Framer
Gee wiz Mr. Carola, you seem awfully hot around the collar today. Business slow?"'ll ask you this one more time. Is it code for you where you live to use T&G for your roof sheathing? Yes or no?If the answer is no, then if you think it will make your roof stronger and your roof will last longer then a roof sheathed with square edge, that's fine. If it's NOT CODE your roof will not last any longer. I've been a framing contractor for over 20 years and I've never once seen a roof specked with T&G sheathing.If you like it so much then why don't you sheath your walls with T&G?The day I get a set of plans with T&G sheathing specked on it that will be the day when I use it."No, its not code, but who cares? I use it because I chose to use it, its that simple. I think its a good product, its stable and strong. I don't like plywood, don't like stupid #### clips either.And my partner has been in the business for 46 years, so what? He's framed plenty with plywood as well and when we started using Adventek he won't go back to plywood.I make up a lot of my own plans and use it, also if plywood is spec'd on plans, I usually change it to Adventek. Apparently its a personal thing and a regional thing. I was unaware that there is such a controversy regarding OSB vs. plywood. I'll keep that in mind for whatever purpose may arise. But we use OSB on 90% of our projects and will continue to do so.The reference to the flooring on the roof etc., was a joke that apparently you missed. Lighten up Joe.
Look, here is the deal! If you are building a cheap house use osb but on nothing less than 16" centers. otherwise 5/8 advantec is the only way to go and never use osb on anything of quality.
Maybe we should use 3/4" t+g on the roof and 3/4" sheathing for the walls. That would make it a best quality house in your opinion?
I have used 5/8" roof sheathing before but not t+g. Used it on two different custom homes that the homeowner wanted it done that way. Did another one that was covered in 3/4" shiplap then gone over with 1/2" plywood.
I guess if you have trees falling on your house it will be stronger. Won't make a bit of difference to the roofing material life expectancy.
Where does it stop? Does two layers of 5/8" plywood make the house better, stronger, and overall a better house?
take a look at how 1/2 plywood and osd bow when you apply them with or without clips and then tell me that 5/8 isn't better.
So tell me, if i was building a house right beside yours and i was sheathing with 3/4" you would consider my house to be even better than yours?
There is a line between not enough and over kill. I becomes obvious with experience which direction to take.
Fair enough, that's all i was wondering about was if people did it because everyone else did it or if they had definate reasons to use it.
I am in the spec home market here for the last three years and there is still lots of profit in the market, but i just stay the course and put on roofs and walls what other guys are using which is 1/2 OSB.
I didn't mention 3/4" plywood at all! I said 5/8" on the roof and no osb unless you are building track homes! I build custom homes that required quality and that is what I use.
7/16" OSB is fine for wall sheathing, meets code, is a greener product, is still more regular as a product and stability meets or exceeds that of plywood sheathing. I don't know about building 24" on center as that isn't code around here. And once the IBC is adopted nationally (as its supposed to be) it won't be code anywhere unless under different building procedures, such as with SIPS or timberframing.We get wind and snow around here, seems like some of you must be building in some pretty warm, easy going climes, like I'd like to be right now.
Gee wiz Miss Girlbuilder, I’m not hot under the collar, are you hot under your collar today?You say that "using T&G is the only way to go" and I questioned you because you can't back it up, that's all. I thought that is was code where you’re from, I realize now since you finally answered that it's not code and you do it by choice. That's fine also.All I was saying to you that is it's not the only way to go, that's all.>> 7/16" OSB is fine for wall sheathing, meets code, is a greener product, is still more regular as a product and stability meets or exceeds that of plywood sheathing. <<>> For one: having your plans approved by the town ain't going to buy you anything but possibly a hot coffee from the town inspector when you are at the court house and he's meeting you to testify that muncipalities are waived of all responsibility for house plans and code does not imply liability for design.<<So me saying that what I do by following approved plans from the town and following code, and asking you or anyone else if 5/8" square edge sheathing meets code, isn't going to cut it with the town inspector when you will just settle with 7/16" osb because it "MEETS CODE" is ok for you only?If 7/16" meets your code for walls, then why not use T&G for your walls since it's stronger for your roof, when 5/8" square edge meets code?>> I don't like plywood, don't like stupid #### clips either. <<Why do you keep talking about plywood and clips?I never use clips and I use 5/8" sheathing on all my roofs with rafters @ 16" centers. Are you framing 24" centers where if you did use plywood you wood have to use clips?
Joe Carola
"Why do you keep talking about plywood and clips?"Joe, because where I was trained and in the code books I've known, clips are essential equipment with plywood for roof sheathing, but then again, what do I know? As I hate plywood and don't use the clips or other assembly and I don't have 20 years experience to back up my assertions.If you use square edge ply, you don't use clips? Not being snide, just wondering. I am sold on Adventek though, if that isn't obvious.
>> If you use square edge ply, you don't use clips? Not being snide, just wondering.<<I never use clips and I use 5/8" sheathing on all my roofs with rafters @ 16" centers. The only time I use clips is when I framed with roof trusses @ 24" centers. I framed an addition for the first time with 2x10 rafters @ 24" centers and I used clips. Other then that, clips are never used.When I first started framing back in 1983, all we used for roof sheathing was 1/2" and all our sub-floors were 1/2". Later on either the framers or trimmers would go back and install 1/2" underlayment on top of that where carpet was going. Oak floors went right on top of the 1/2"Now, all we use is 3/4" T&G for sub-floors glued and carpet and oak goes right on top.Joe Carola
can someone post to me...... i think deleted post #110 must have been to me
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Here ya go.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
The secret to a long life is knowing when its time to go. M. Shocked
The IBC doesn't allow 24" O.c. for what? rafters? trusses? joists? studs?
I am not trying to nit pick, I just don't know what the new code says about these areas .
The IBC doesn't allow 24" on center for stick build assemblies on roofs, floors or walls last I knew, but I don't know maybe I'm wrong because we've never investigated doing 24" on center as it would be ridiculous around here with wind loads and snow loads as they are.Again though, the BOCA last I checked allowed it, along with 2 x 4 construction, providing that let-in braces were on all four corners. But the IBC doesn't allow 2 x 4 walls or 24 on center stick building as far as I have read.Trusses are another matter, we've always placed those at 24" center (of course per manufacturer's spec -- in other words, the truss designers as far as I know make the call-outs for that). I don't know of anyone who designs their own trusses these days -- anyone? Someone gave me an old military manual that detailed making your own, but anyway...
Joe,
Kind of nice cutting and stacking less rafters?
Tim,I did frame that addition that I was telling Mike about with 24" center 2x12 joists. I forgot to tell him that the rafters were also 24" centers with h-clips.The 2x12 joists at 24" centers I didn't like at all and called the Architect up and he said to do it anyway.The rafters I also felt funny doing and my guys thought I was nuts until they saw the plans. There's a first for everything. The times I used trusses they were 24" centers with h-clips also.I did use trusses about 15 years ago on my friends add-a-level that I designed. I put them at 16" centers.Joe Carola
Around here everything is 24" oc when it comes to roofs. At least that I've seen and that was the way I was taught. That's what I love about the forums, there are so many different ways to do things around the country.
Got any cool projects you've been working on or coming up? We've been siding but will start framing again in a couple of weeks. Did you see that timber truss I got to build?
This sure seems to be an oxymoron to me
"it looks to be a very high quality 4-ply""
well, if you saw this ply , you'd call it "high quality " too
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
What species and who is the manufacturer. Be nice toknow so I could look for it out here.
You stick the grove over the tongue, not the tongue into the grove. You young guys always get it backwards.
>> You stick the grove over the tongue, not the tongue into the grove. You young guys always get it backwards. <<You're joking, right?Joe Carola
LOL, He must be, we all know that you are older than the hills!;)
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I'm still young at 24.......or is it 42.....I’m forgetting a lot of things lately…….;-)Joe Carola
I'm a lot older than that. My first t+g sheathing job was in s. cal in the late 60's.
"my roof framer seemed to be confused about how to put it together without clips."If he had no more brains than that, he should not be working for you. He should be out picking up returnables for nickles on the roadside.That way he could get run over and improve the species!
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In fairness to my poor abused framer, what he was saying was that if you put roofing in with clips than the expansion of the horrible Fl heat is taken up by the small open space. But if he put the T&G in tightly like he did for the floor he was worried about what would happen when it expanded.
I can't say I've ever seen T&G roofing done here, but this is my first house after Ivan and I'd like to make it everything proof.
T&G doesn't fit that tight. It has stops to allow for that kind of swelling should it ever happen.
And again - Advantec has glues that make it nearly impervious to moisture.
It is clear he has not worked much if at all with any T&G products
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<em>my roof framer seemed to be confused about how to put it together without clips.</em>You are joking, you must be joking right?
I've only ever once been requested to use t&g on a roof, actually it was 12/12, not really sure why though. I was always under the impression that the roof clips were the way to go b/c it allows a tiny and maybee insignificant ammount of air to move thru, allowing the undersides of shingles to 'breathe'. I'm not sure if thats the reason or not, maybee just for the ease of installation. I've heard that houses with 1x boards are easier on the shingles for the reason stated above. I don't really know for sure thats just what my grandfather taught me, he was trained in europe in the old school ways. Please let me know, if I've been mislead.. hate to think I've been going around endorsing a flawed method.
Actually Nick, I dunno about the breathing aspect. As roofing now is mostly of fiberglass composite with a fiberglass/asphalt material as underlayment, I don't think breathing per se would be an issue.Breathing under shingles would seem to be more an issue for cedar shingles, as they need to be able to dry out once they've absorbed moisture and swelled from a rain. And those are installed on skip boards. Board sheathing is definitely old school, we usually deck over board sheathing, although I know some who will strip shingles off old board underlayment and lay shingles and underlayment directly on that, we don't. Around here the issue of strength in materials against snow and wind loads trumps any concern for anything else.
Strength is always a huge concern, everywhere. We get lots of snow and wind, we also have incredibly hot and humid summers. California gets earthquakes, hurricanes in Florida ect. Everyones code is unique, but if theres no real structural benefit to using such expensive plywood why would you? I know quoting on jobs you're always in competition, So the extra money spent there will have to come out of somewhere else...Hopefully not your poket. Where are you anyways?
The reason for spacing sheathing, whether clips are used or not, is that if it ever absorbs moisture from humid air, it will swell and the edges abutting each other will show thru the shingles and look terrible. Sometimes - occasionally, this can even make the sheathing buckle. The spaces allows for swelling/expansion.
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So would it be o.k to use t&g, or would the swelling be an issue there aswell? I would assume so. I think in the one instance we used it (going back some years) it was in a cathedral ceiling, spray foamed ect. However I'm guessing in a spray foamed roof theres really no inner humidity.
The sheathing we use is guaranteed to not swell or move for at least 50 years and we've never had a problem with it absorbing moisture at all, its treated specifically to resist moisture at very high levels.We use it because of its stability which leads to more predictability in on the job applications. Also, the assembly goes a lot faster. I've never had it be an issue as far as cost is concerned as its increased cost is not that much for what is gained. Some material costs concern me, but that isn't one of them, or should I say I've never been compelled to make it an issue. I would also think that sunk costs, such as overhead are the costs to watch in order to be competitive.I'm in Boston area.
I would imagine youre in a similar situation to us here in Toronto. Most of the builders in our area like to use 3/8(not custom homes) or 1/2 inch on custom homes. Flat roofs 3/4 fir. So I would say if youre not going to have any issues with swelling the advantech would make a pretty solid roof. Is it really heavy? or similar to any other aspenite product? I guess over the duration of a house the cost would not be as obvious. I can tell you many times I've been involved in houses where a builder is extreme, spent all kinds of extra monies on these things. In the end his house looks like anyone elses, but costs 20% more. Hard to compete.
It is a bit heavier than regular ply, but I'm a girl and I've managed ;)I don't see overbuilds as much as I see underbuilds, that once we get in and do a remodel, we're amazed some of these places have stayed up as long as they have. If there were to be a major earth moving event or record storm, there would be certain disaster up here with many houses I've seen.I think I'll start a thread.
T&G sheathing and decking is made with stops to allow just the rioght seat for swelling without buckling. I'm always amazed to see guys trying to drive a T&G decking together tight as though it is a finish hardwood floor. It ain't gonna happen
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When we build cookie cutters, the ply they use there is cerrated along the tongues, I always thought it was to allow urine to pass through as all of the trades who follow me pee all over the floors. I find when we use 5/8 t&g, usually when it gets wet the top of the tongue usually peels off a few sheets, maybee I'm one of those guys that trys a little to hard.
"The reason for spacing sheathing, whether clips are used or not, is that if it ever absorbs moisture from humid air, it will swell and the edges abutting each other will show thru the shingles and look terrible. Sometimes - occasionally, this can even make the sheathing buckle. The spaces allows for swelling/expansion."
OK. Understood.
So what do we use to give that necessary little space between sheets where they want to butt over rafters or trusses? 16d nails'll work, but I keep on dropping them.
And everytime I look the other way, the dummies go and butt them tight.
And to help keep from going off layout, how can we get that doggone material at 48 x 95 7/8?
I guess I've never sheathed a roof big enough for butts to matter as they grow on you. and hang onto those nails.
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wha?
GD.... the spacing at the butt joints you were talking about is a problem here in central Illinois , on a frosty morning it is most noticable and and shows the complete outline of the 4x8 sheet especially if ply clips wer not used on the horizontal.
As to the butt joint problem I have been going back with circular saw ,at the butt and cutting the cutting the width of the blade kerf at the vertical butt ,seems to solve the problem and doesn't mess with layout , dummies that can't remember, andnails that fall out.
What's the snow load, etc, where you live?
Depends on what part of the state you're talking about. Usually 40 in the southern and coastal areas up to as much as 60 or more up north. I don't work a lot up north, so am vague on that.
Oh sorry, somehow I thought that question was directed at me.
Have you checked to see what the roofing material manufacturer requires? Most require 3/4" of material under the roofing material if it is a composite shingle. That doesn't mean 3/4" sheathing, it means at least 3/4 of an inch of decking.
Check with the roofing manufacturer to insure their warranty will be supported.
99 % of the homes built within the last 30 years in the SE USA have 1/2" sheathing material on the roofs - actually 7/16" OSB. 24" centers get clips. Two million dollar homes? Same thing, Maybe areas with a lot of snow may need 5/8" but other than that, it is just a waste of money. As far as guys compalining that it is hard to nail roofing material to, for special roofing coverings they may have a case, but for asphault shingles, 7/16" is fine. What, am I going to spend an extra grand building a house so some roofer can be happy for a few days? These people who are recommending 5/8" either live an an area with special weather considerations, or are not responsible for whole house building budgets, or just like to overbuild and waste people's money, or they are not home builders at all.
Or they don't like to see the "waves" on the roofs of $2mil homes.
If it costs you an extra thousand to put 5/8" on instead of 1/2" then you're buying your sheet goods from the wrong place.
If it costs you an extra thousand to put 5/8" on instead of 1/2" then you're buying your sheet goods from the wrong place.
David,
We use true 1/2" OSB with H-clips framing 24" oc. I priced 5/8" a few months ago and it was about double 1/2", but dont' quote me. I'm going to try it again through a couple of other lumberyards on the next frame.
In my opinion, I'd rather use 5/8 than switch to 16 oc. That way labor is the same and the only increase in $ is the sheathing.
Tim, just got a quote for a frame package today. 1/2 CDX is .46 per SF. 5/8 CDX is .51 per SF. So, for 2000 SF (enough to sheet the roof we will be doing) I'll pay .05 x 2000, or about $100. The plans I am building specifically call out 1/2 and 5/8 CDX for walls and roof.
I don't know what OSB costs, we never use it. I have bought exactly 3 sheets of OSB in my life, for a fire department volunteer project when we rebuilt someone's garage--we threw those 3 sheets on top of the ceiling joists so she could store a few boxes.
Dave,
I'll let you know when I find out pricing.
Tim, just got a quote for a frame package today. 1/2 CDX is .46 per SF. 5/8 CDX is .51 per SF. So, for 2000 SF (enough to sheet the roof we will be doing) I'll pay .05 x 2000, or about $100. The plans I am building specifically call out 1/2 and 5/8 CDX for walls and roof.
I don't know what OSB costs, we never use it. I have bought exactly 3 sheets of OSB in my life, for a fire department volunteer project when we rebuilt someone's garage--we threw those 3 sheets on top of the ceiling joists so she could store a few boxes.
David,
I called around today and got prices all over the place. I finally got a price of $10.80 for 5/8" OSB square edge, $17.90 for t&g 5/8" OSB. For 7/16" OSB it is $6.80 and for true 1/2" it is about ~$7.50ish which is what we use, so . . . .
for about an avg of 60-90 (somewhere in there) sheets, that is somewhere between $200 and $300 we get a stiffer roof that will lie flatter.
Although I've said this before and I'll say it again, I regularly drive by houses we framed (framed by this company before I was around) and those roofs still look good with 7/16" OSB, 24" oc. I'm talking 10-15 years. Nearly all of them stick framed.
However, there are a number of commercial buildings here in Port Orchard that look like hell at all times of the day. The trusses clearly show through.
So the bosses will make the call not me, partly because this time of year we'll spend the extra $ on Advantech subfloor, so with both the roof and subfloor we are north of $500 and then add in all the other crap we do that no one else in our area does, like buy higher quality caulking, slip sheets behind butt joints, pay extra for good quality roofers, etc and it starts to add up.
Last time I asked about Advantech my local place said they could not get it. Glad to know it's available to you because that means I can probably get it now too. With the amount of rain we're getting I wonder if it will even stop this summer.
Adventek is awesome for standing up to the weather when exposed. We've had framing projects going where the flooring is on and exposed to a long duration of driving rain for weeks and it dries out and is as straight and sturdy as the day it was put down.
No waste at all. I can gaurantee you that asphalt shingles on 5/8" will outlast same on 1/2" sheathing. It is not to make the roofer happy, it is to make the owner happy.
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I would be very interested to hear why a thicker sheathing would increase shingle life.
I am not doubting your statement, I just do not understand why.
because when laid at 24" oc, the 1/2" sheets have a lot of flex, when pounding with a roof hatchet to drive nails, or when walking over them, or when loading them up with snow. That means wear and tear on the shingles laid right there, from the bottom side which creates minor fractures that are often invisible, but eventually, the first place to wear out. I have done roof tearoffs where the tarpaper right at that seam is cracked and there is water sign on the ply. My biggest reason for using 5/8 instead of 1/2" is to avoid the telegraphing sags showing off where every rafter is. Not so bad with advantec, but OSB is terible. With ply it depends whether it is five ply, four ply, or three ply.
Three ply isn't worth building an outhouse with
Neither is OSB, IMOI stick frame so most of my layouts are at 16" oc too.i've worked on more 1/2" in my life than better stuff, but given the choice, when I am making the decision, nine times out of eight, it will be the better choice.
I agree with whoever said that the guy spending an extra grand to upgrade to 5/8" needs to find a better supplier. He is getting ripped off. The last roof I sheathed cost less thana grand to cover the whole darn thing.
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99 % of the homes built within the last 30 years in the SE USA have 1/2" sheathing material on the roofs - actually 7/16" OSB
These people who are recommending 5/8" either live an an area with special weather considerations,
Yeah....like the whole rest of the country.
This great land of ours is a big one, with lots of cold (read that as snow) areas....no one thing is the best answer EVERYWHERE.
Personally, 5/8 even on 16"oc, w/ H clips if 24" oc. It's always cheaper to build it right ONCE, than to build it sub-standard TWICE.
PS 30 years old is a brand new house to me. Let me know how those roofs look in 20-30 more years.
Edited 1/16/2007 8:03 pm ET by pickings
Unfortunatly, the way you look at homebuilding doesn't make sense for most homeowners. These days, with a mobile society, a home resold to someone else on average every 5-7 years. The first home we bought, we lived there only 3 years before a job change moved us across the country.
Now we are in SoCal, where you are ALOT less mobile, unless you are going to move back out of the area. If my wifes job doesn't work out, we will certaily skip town again. If it does work out, we will have to stay and improve the house we have. We ONLY do that because houses appreciate at a double digit rate every year here. That means if you want to buy a better more expensive home than the one you already have, you either have to kill off a rich relative who likes you, or get a double digit raise every year you have a job. Few other places in the country are this insane, and that means that people are only willing to barely maintain then bail out of their abode fore something better.
These days, if you have lived in your house for 30 years, you've probably met nearly 20 new neighbors in the 5 houses that surround yours on your street during your stay. All they have to do is give their house a finish that will last 10 years, and they are being financially responsible. After 10 years, it will likely be someone elses worry.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
The house I live in was constructed in 1956. It seems that this part of Suffolk County NY was the "wild west" then as far a building codes or enforcement went and pretty much anything went. In my house 3/8 was the magic number. 3/8 wallboard, 3/8 ply on the walls and yes, 3/8 ply on the roof (16" OC), or thereabouts...sometimes 14...sometimes 18. My roof has a number of pitches 6/12 4/12 and 2/12 (barely) (all surfaces roofed with a standard 3 tab). On the 6 and 4 the ply has survived fine, no noticeable deflection and no problems, on the roof or below. On the 2/12 side that failed. Of course, some of that failure could be due to the failure of the rafters below, (chicken or egg dilemma, which failed first the ply or the rafters and did it fail because of the pitch and roofing choice? It was probably a combination. When I rebuilt it I used 5/8 ply (now code here), ice and water shield and architectural singles material. (my work fell under a permit and required inspections I know I was borderline on the roofing material, but my wife wanted the "continuity: of the roofing material), you know for those people passing the house in a helicopter. I considered using 3/4 for about 30 seconds, the though of lugging that kind of load to the roof put and end to that.
A similar house behind me was doing similar work at around the same time, they used an OSB product and a 3 tab (no idea of the thickness of the OSB or whether there were any permits pulled) and they have had guys on the roof 3 times since doing various repairs. My roof section faces North, his faces South.
So after reading all these posts I have not seen a definative answer as far as 1x sheathing goes.
Down here it is an upgrade over 1/2" plywood which is the norm on 16" centers.
Builders on the cheap use 3/8" plywood with clips and I have stepped right thru them jumping from one roof to another.
I was under the impression that using 1x tongue and groove with sheathing over it was for exposed ceilings.
I personnally like using 1x material for roof decking as it is easier to work on steep roofs by leaving runs out every couple of feet and it seems to be as strong as 1/2" decking with more nails per ft..
ANDYSZ2WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
>>99 % of the homes built within the last 30 years in the SE USA have 1/2" sheathing material on the roofs <<
How long did it take you to visit each and every house in the SE USA to make such a statement? Is this just maybe your opinion, or did you just read some survey where they poll 100 contractors and project the findings for the whole SE USA?
This thread is full of convinced opinions both ways - I'll chime in.
On reroofs I've seen a lot of plywood delaminated - maybe plywood has come along too, but osb is better in my book than much of the the plywood I've seen on roofs.
H-clips are among the most frustrating things I've ever tried to use - If t&g osb were commonly available in 5/8, that would be the best imho.
1/2" on 24" o.c. is the standard here - most of the sagging I see is from old delaminated plywood, not osb. I'll agree with those who claim 5/8 is better, (and I've used it) but somewhere the law of diminishing returns will take over - 1/2" on my roof - no problems, not losing any sleep over it.
A little off the subject, but we just finished a 10:12 roof with 3/4" t&g osb. The stuff is so heavy that we were seriously rethinking our career choice until the rock climbing gear was pulled out.
We used two pulleys and a long rope arranged so one guy would toss the sheet on the roof and hoist it up. The other guy on the roof would only have to guide the sheet into position, smack it with the sledge to seat the joint and nail off.
The attachment to the sheet was 1' of webbing folded over into a loop and nailed to the sheet (centered about 1' down from top edge) with two hanger nails driven at an angle. It's easy to remove and has plenty of holding power for the purpose. The pulley would simply clip onto the webbing.
The pulley system worked so well we lost very little time over muscling the sheets into place and it was much more safe and almost enjoyable. When was the last time 3/4" was enjoyable?
Further off the subject, the same rope and pulley combo was used to lift a big window to the second floor. What a time and back saver!
Good decking.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I havent got the '06 book yet, but my code book says 5/8" sheathing at 24" OC.
I cant tell you how many I have roofed wiyh 1/2" though.
This is out of the 2000 IBC page 475. We're just now going to '06 as of this month. I cant imagine that it would 1/2" in the new book.
As slow as we are about our code book responsible contractors (yeah there are a few) have been using it for 20 years around here.