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Discussion Forum

Roof shingles overhang

Redfly | Posted in General Discussion on October 30, 2004 10:56am

To All…..

I’ve just had my roof reshingled and the carpenter ended the roof shingles at the edge of the drip edge. My understanding is that the shingles should overhang by 1/4 to 3/8″.  Meanwhile the rain is following the drip edge and running down before it gets to the gutters.  The gentleman that installed the shingles claims that his method is so that you can put a ladder up against the house without desturbing the shingles.

Your thoughts..

Thanks

Reply
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Replies

  1. Sasquatch | Oct 30, 2004 11:06pm | #1

    I leave a small overhang; however, I would install the gutter so it is tucked in under the drip edge.  Otherwise, even with a 3/8" overhang, some water could be pushed behind the gutter.

    Les Barrett Quality Construction
  2. Piffin | Oct 30, 2004 11:10pm | #2

    overhanging shingles will be broke down and looking bad after five years or so.

    Shingles run right to the edge will allow water to wick around folowing surface tension and then drip of the metal edge.

    Both are true.

    but if the metal edge is left a quarter inch away from the fascia. it will drip free.

    now then, when gutter is properly installed, it has a flange run up under the roof drip edge so this is not a question.

    Long story short - if you want a specific detail done, the time to specify it is before the job, not after

     

     

    Welcome to the
    Taunton University of
    Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
     where ...
    Excellence is its own reward!

    1. DougU | Oct 31, 2004 12:44am | #3

      Piffin

      Back when I did a bit of roofing I had one guy that had some rental property that I did a lot of work for. He always wanted the shingles to overhang the drip edge by 1"! Tried to tell him that was a bit much but he insisted and there was no way to tell this guy no.

      But he always specified before the job so.....

      Doug

      1. Varoom | Nov 01, 2004 09:55pm | #30

        He always wanted the shingles to overhang the drip edge by 1"!

        Ha!  That's nothing.  House I bought this summer has a 2" overhang.

        Been caulking like mad to get the edges weatherproofed to last me a year or 2 before total replacement anyway.  Gee, I wonder why they cracked at the roof edge?

        And who needs a dripedge or roofing felt, when good old plywood alone beneath will do?  That stuff is for the rich folks.  

        Dripedge flashed properly to gutter with no, or a small 1/4", overhang would have been fine by me.

    2. User avater
      EricPaulson | Oct 31, 2004 02:02am | #5

      Paul,

      I know you will not take this personally but; I hate drip edge. To me it's right there with vinyl siding.

      Right or wrong, I was taught to leave shingles 1 1/4 proud on the fascia, and 5/8 on the rakes. The 1 1/4 gets the water in the gutter and away from the ply. That was before stick and peel and ice shield and all of that.

      Tell me how I would tuck the gutter up under a drip edge on a 50' long roof and still have proper pitch on the gutters to each end. And I know you hate gutters.

      If I were to do my own place I would be inclined to put cedar shingles benath the starters as I have seen on so many older well constructed homes.

      I hate vinyl, drip edge and gutters! Theres go to be a better way!

      Eric

      I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,

      With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.

      Edited 10/30/2004 8:14 pm ET by firebird

      1. Piffin | Oct 31, 2004 02:33am | #6

        That's just one reason I hate gutters, but there are two solutions.

        First thing is that you can pitch it both ways shortening the drop to happen in a 25' run. Givwe it a sixteenth er foot and that's only about an inch and a half drop. make the drip edge large enough to cover it. When I started roofing, you could easily buy drip edge with a 2" face

        Or -

        you can run a slip of metal up under the edge and down over the gutter when installing it.

        I haven't taken any sides on whether to hang it over or whether to use drip edge yet here. I do prefer metal edge and fitting shingle to that edge or maybe over it a sixteenth to an eighth. I have done it all ways and some of the diff is regional preferences. I was just pointing out that because there are variables, a lot of them - more than mentioned here so far, anyone wanting a specific should say so when it is still possible to have it.

        And no, I don't take it personally.

        Now, if you told me you wanted a purple roof with yellow polka dots... 

         

        Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

        1. User avater
          EricPaulson | Oct 31, 2004 03:11am | #8

          >>And no, I don't take it personally.

          Only reason I stated that was that I know that in the past you have adamantly advocated the use of drip edges. Don't wanna start a war, there's enough of that here already.

          I got the part about having 2 drops. You think a1/16 is enough? Hadn't considered making my own edge, and my thoughts were based on what I know is available.

          I still don't like drip edge. I've seen what the build up of ice in the gutter will do to it, it's just another reason for the ho to call you back when he sees it all mangled when he goes up there to clean the gutter.

          I've seen a couple of guys wrap the ice shield right into the gutter. Having the gutter on then in new construction is a bit out of sequence but I think this maybe a good solution even though I'm not sure I like it. What are your thoughts on that?

          Eric

          I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,

          With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.

          1. blue_eyed_devil | Oct 31, 2004 03:41am | #10

            I hang em over to my first knucle...thats 11/16!

            blue FRAMING ADVICE ALERT!!!! DON'T TAKE ANY FRAMING ADVICE FROM ME. I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IT. IF YOU WANT GOOD FRAMING ADVICE, JUST ASK GABE. DON'T ASK ANYONE ELSE....JUST ASK GABE! REMEMBER, I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT FRAMING...I JUST BS ABOUT IT.

            END OF ALERT!

          2. Piffin | Oct 31, 2004 03:52am | #11

            Hi Stubby! 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          3. blue_eyed_devil | Oct 31, 2004 06:40am | #12

            Hey, howd you know what my wife calls me?!!!

            blue FRAMING ADVICE ALERT!!!! DON'T TAKE ANY FRAMING ADVICE FROM ME. I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IT. IF YOU WANT GOOD FRAMING ADVICE, JUST ASK GABE. DON'T ASK ANYONE ELSE....JUST ASK GABE! REMEMBER, I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT FRAMING...I JUST BS ABOUT IT.

            END OF ALERT!

          4. Piffin | Oct 31, 2004 09:17pm | #17

            You knuckle is only 11/16". All those digits influence one another.

            ;) 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          5. woodbutch777 | Nov 03, 2004 04:00am | #35

            Who in their right mind would run Ice& Watershield into a gutter especially on a southern exposure, that would be a real chocalate mess.

            When i cant get the gutter under the drip i counter flash it with a strip under the drip with a stiffener and a 15 degree kick to ensure water drpis into the gutter

            Cedar shingles are the way to go with wood gutters but i pre seal the butts with linseed oil

          6. xMikeSmith | Nov 03, 2004 04:21am | #36

            gosh, wood...

             wish i had thought of that... bet that linseed oil lasts at least 6 months..

             lose the wood shingle startersMike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

          7. blue_eyed_devil | Nov 04, 2004 05:37pm | #37

            I agree Mike. In my apprentice years we always put that 5/8" starter board on...which always had to be replaced on the first reshingling.

            It makes no sense to leave wood exposed to the elements in that enclosed damp gutter area.

            blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos

            Additionally, don't take any political advice from me. I'm just a parrot for the Republican talking points. I get all my news from Rush Limbaugh and Fox and Friends (they are funny...try them out)!

      2. Piffin | Oct 31, 2004 03:40am | #9

        maybe the reason you hate drip edge is that so often it is poorly made and poorly installed.

        Same thing can be said of vinyl siding or gutter hanging. Poorly made or installed - it will all look like hell. But it can all be well done too.

        For drip edge, I snip off the ends - just a one inch triangle of the horizontal an the verticle portions, and lap it by just enough the make the outer end fit together. Then, you don't have the underlying piece forcing the overlapping piece up and away to laugh at you. From five or six feet away, you can barely see where the lap is at all.

        As for lapping ice and water into the gutter, no I don't think that is a very good idea. A year or two of sunshine and it will be curling away from the gutter, unstuck, and impeding drainage.

        A sixteenth is on the light side for good draibnage, but the trick to keeping a gutter good is cleaning it twice a year. Most people never think of it until they see trees growing out of it.

        This summer, I was called to consult a couple with water problems in their basement. They wanted to have me give them free advice over the phone and I declined so they agreed to a fee and a visit. I walked up to the house and around the corner to the side door they had said to use, and stopped dead in my tracks.

        I was on the uphill side of the hosue - ground running towards the house - and saaw that they had a nicely graded surface drain leading to the rear and downhill. The drops from the gutter led to this drain on the ground. The center drop though, had leaf debis hanging out the bottom like a big horse turd, the gutter straight up from it had several small trees growing in the leaf mold, and the whole side of the house there was wet and mildewed.

        So I've stopped eight or ten feet from the door and already, with my mouth agap, know what their problem is and what part of the basement they will lead me to when I go inside. The wife comes to the door and sees what I am looking at and she says something like oh yes, my husband hasen't gottenaround to cleaning the gutter yet this year...

        but they never made that simple connection.

        my prejudices against gutters though stem from the fact that ice tears them up, and they look ugly as sin unless they are integral top the house. Most are slapped on as an afterthought by some guy trying to get rich quick, and never a care whether they do the job long, well, or without leaking. 

         

        Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

      3. xMikeSmith | Oct 31, 2004 06:42am | #13

        eric... wood starter shingles are a  really bad idea.. they used them because they didn't have drip edge in those days..

         they wick, and rot .. and they keep the fascia wet for a long time after a rain

        one of the problems of drip edge is most use mill finish.. but if you use a nice color coordinated drip it will enhance the appearance and the performance of the roof..

         we use colored drip edge on all rakes and eaves..

        the bottom of the  drip edge should never touch the fascia.. otehrwise the capillary action will suck the water back to the board it is protecting.. then sneak down behing most gutter installations and drip..

         leave it off the fascia.. you can also use an apron hanger for your gutter installs..

         or you can use colored alum. strips from under the drip edge into the gutter

        we use a 3/8 overhang.. you are SUPPOSED to see shingle when you look up ..

         but too much and it will slump on hot days.... a little too much and it will be prone to damage from ladders..

         3/8  of the starter course and the first course is usually strong enough to resist careful ladder useMike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

        1. Hazlett | Oct 31, 2004 02:08pm | #14

          I like to overhang the drip edge 1/2 inch on the  gable ends, and 3/4 inch along the bottom edge.

          And, despite what Piffen says about running the gutter slope to BOTH ends

          you will FREQUENTLY not have that option available to you-----especially in old work the gutter will HAVE to be run to one direction

          Also in old work the existing gutters will quite often be remaining "AS-IS"-----removing them or adjusting them will not be a viable option.

          A 3/4 inch overhang will solve the problems and especially with an older house will compensate for the inevitable banana in the bottom edge of the roof.Either the gutter itself,or a simple gutter board or a ladder stand off will protect the edge of the shingle from ladders.

          I have personally roofed 15-20 roofs within a 1 block radius of my own home----no problems with the 3/4 inch over hang on them----and if you look at a several block radius there will be several dozen roofs I have done the same way----no problems.

          1. Piffin | Oct 31, 2004 09:21pm | #18

            Hey Haz, how often do you actually SEE a fifty foot long gutter? I work on some humongous sized houses and can't remember many more than 20' - 28'. 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          2. Sasquatch | Nov 01, 2004 04:21am | #19

            You are prescient.  I was going to bring up the same point, but was still trying to think of a residential example, excluding duplexes.Les Barrett Quality Construction

          3. Piffin | Nov 01, 2004 04:36am | #20

            The only residential homes i can think of were ranch style out west and they did not generally have gutters excpt over the entry. They had large ( 22" to 36") overhangs to keep water away from foundations. 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          4. Hazlett | Nov 01, 2004 02:04pm | #21

            Piffen,

            VERY common size here would be  31-32' covering the width of the house and a 16 inch overhang at each end. a 1/16'/ft. drop would pull you an inch out from behind the DE if you run it to one end.

            Also,

            gutter runs of at least 46' are common on even fairly small ranch/bungalows----especially with attached garages.

            Also----running the gutter back behind the DE,while maintaining pitch---on anything over about a 6 ft. run is pretty impossible if you are gonna use hidden hangers( like the ode system.)

            Very common here that the customer wants the gutter run to one end where the slope of the ground will drain the water away from his house ( and probably into the neighbors basement!)----rather than draining it to both ends where the slope of the ground will drain half of it back into the house.

            And----before someone mentions landscaping/swale-------40 ft. wide lots with a driveway running down one side leaves no real room for a swale.

            Stephen

          5. Hubedube | Nov 01, 2004 03:21pm | #22

            Well, if you've only seen or worked on  only 20'-28 ', then  you aint been very far.

             Have you ever heard of  "bungalows, or ranch" styled  house? They sometimes are 70'- 90'  and the eavestrough (gutter) is spun off in all 1 piece (corner to corner)

          6. User avater
            BossHog | Nov 01, 2004 03:23pm | #23

            "...how often do you actually SEE a fifty foot long gutter?"

            I wondered the same thing. Even if a gutter was that long, it would need more than one downspout. Otherwise the gutter would just run over in all but the lightest rains.As a rule, he (or she) who has the most information will have the greatest success in life [Disraeli]

          7. User avater
            Mongo | Nov 01, 2004 05:47pm | #25

            The gutters on my house are 51', pitched to both ends with downspouts at both ends.

            Regarding overhang on the shingles, I like drip edge, with the starter course overhanging the drip by about 1/4" and the first row of shingles overhanging the starter by a bit as well. Same as what others said about the hem on the drip falling inside the gutter.

            Use standoff arms on your ladder with the arms either on the wall of the house or up on the roof. I don't like the ladder resting against either the gutter or the edge of the shingles. In a pinch I could see it against the gutter, but I'd never want it on the edge of the shingles.

          8. Hubedube | Nov 01, 2004 09:36pm | #29

            At last, someone with some common building sense.

            i whole-heartedly AGREE with you.

            Also, have you noticed a lot of homeowners that have no eavestrough(gutter) are the ones that are complaining about having water problems, (flooding) in their basements?

          9. User avater
            CapnMac | Nov 01, 2004 07:56pm | #26

            it would need more than one downspout. Otherwise the gutter would just run over in all but the lightest rains.

            Ah, so you have seen gutters in my town <g>

            This county averages right at 36" of rain per year, and right at 3" per month for all 12--yet no one seems to "think" about how to detail for that rain properly.

            Not that uncommon to see a 60-70' of gutter, level to the fascia, with only three downleaders--if a gutter is installed at all.  Still seems odd to me, having lived in this town for two decades, how many houses are still built with a near-zero overhang.  And no gutters--so, there's a line of either drowned grass or overgrown grass.

            Drip edge gets installed around here only about half the time.  Asphalt shingles are usually drooped over the fascia as they are usually set 3/4" to 1" overhanging.  Oh, and about even having a starter course.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)

          10. User avater
            BossHog | Nov 01, 2004 08:13pm | #27

            Hadn't thought about it for a long time, but -

            When I had a seamless gutter guy do our old house and garage, I couldn't figure out why rain ran down the fascia cover.

            After climbing up to clean them out the first time, I found out that he had put all the gutters on OVER the top of the drip edge. This held the back lip of the gutters out away from the fascia cover, and allowed water to run down behind the gutter.

            REALLY ticked me off.Alcohol and calculus don't mix. Never drink and derive.

          11. Hazlett | Nov 01, 2004 09:19pm | #28

            To All,

            earlier this summer I did a project where we replaced the roof and gutters on a house( actually a twinplex)

            On the back of the house there was a seamless piece 82 feet long. I fully intended to replace that with another seamless piece 82 feet long-------------I even had my 2 sons scheduled to help me hang it.------------then I realized that between the landscaping and the neighboring houses I was never gonna get a seamless peace 82 feet long down  between the houses and turned into the back yard.

            So I talked it over with the homeowner and ended up hanging 2  pieces 41 feet long. ( solo)

            Several other twinplexes with the same design on that block

            Stephen

          12. Piffin | Nov 02, 2004 12:34am | #31

            THAT is the whole problem. Those guys have a mindset that thinks in terms of getting pasid by the foot, instead of getting rewarded for controling water flow properly.

            The other problem is what Steven haz mentioned, that HOs WANBT only one drop at one end.

            They can want all day long, but reality means they need more than one on a fifty foot run. 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          13. Hazlett | Nov 02, 2004 02:45pm | #32

              my wife and I walked down to vote this morning and noticed a house on a corner , hilly lot.

            about a 36 foot gutter run from 1 side of main roof-----draining down a spout to a porch gutter------porch is a hip roof----gutter wraps around 3 sides of porch before it hits downspout  to the drain.-----total gutter length well over 50 feet with one drain. ( admidtedly this is far from an ideal solution----but it is working and is not all that uncommon a compromise on an urban lot)

            Length of gutter is not as important as the volume of water it has to carry.

            That 82 ft. gutter I mentioned earlier carried a slightly lower volume of water than many 36 foot gutters I have encountered.

            BTW on the right size house a 6inch gutter will greatly improve  the situation and still look in scale on the house. ( The longer and higher the 6 inch gutter is the better the scale looks--------------short runs look out of scale)

            Stephen

          14. xMikeSmith | Nov 02, 2004 03:07pm | #33

            when we HAVE to use gutters.. if the run is long , or the roof area large.. we'll increase to 6" gutter and larger downspouts..

            often , the 6" gutter looks better on a larger scale projectMike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

          15. edwardh1 | Nov 01, 2004 05:18pm | #24

            pix would be nice on this thread

            right way wrong way

        2. User avater
          EricPaulson | Oct 31, 2004 03:11pm | #15

          Thanks Mike

          >>leave it off the fascia.. you can also use an apron hanger for your gutter installs..

          I'm thinking that looks like a 'J' and the gutter hangs on it with it's upside down 'J'?

          EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,

          With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.

  3. User avater
    BossHog | Oct 31, 2004 01:19am | #4

    I'd rather look up and see the drip edge than the underside of the shingles. Seems to me it's more personal preference than anything.

    As Piffin pointed out, the gutter should be up under the drip edge, so thw water shouldn't be a problem.

    A man who finds it painful to smile should not open a shop. [Confucius]

  4. MojoMan | Oct 31, 2004 02:41am | #7

    This is a classic mistake I see all the time. I am convinced the shingles should project beyond the drip edge to prevent the exact problem you are having. I let the first course overhang the drip edge by about one inch. This might vary depending on roof pitch: More on flatter roofs, less on steeper. If there is a gutter, no ladder can hit the edge of the shingles, so that excuse doesn't hold water (Serendipidous pun!).

    There is a type of drip edge (Flow-Right, I think it's called) that has two downward-projecting flanges. One butts against the fascia and the other directs to water into the gutter.

    What to do now? Caulk the top edge of the gutter (Quick and dirty), or stick a second drip edge on top of the first (Secure with roof cement.). This is one of those jobs that's a whole lot easier to do right the first time.

    Al Mollitor, Sharon MA

    1. Redfly | Oct 31, 2004 05:15pm | #16

      Thanks Al for your thoughts.

       A  friend of my wife did the roofing, and I'm trying to correct the problem after  the fact. 

      RC

  5. FrankB89 | Nov 03, 2004 02:42am | #34

    I use "D" profile drip edge.  The metal is formed to provide the overhang and support the shingle.  The gutter is tucked underneath. With the gutter, the drip edge is mostly invisible, serves a function and maintains a solid support for the shingle overhang.

    If access to a roof is by ladder, use a ladder stabilizer so the ladder isn't resting on the edge of the roof.

    Here on the "Wet Coast", no overhang is an invitation for problems.

     

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