Hello all. I’ve been watching Breaktime for probably 2-3 years; however, this is my first post. Sorry for the long post, but I am in need of some outside opinions for a job that is being worked on my parents roof.
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Background: The house is a 1-1/2 story house with a 7:12 roof located in Texas. The living room had a cathedral type ceiling constructed strictly of 2×6 rafters on 24†centers running from the outside wall top plate to the ridge. The total span is 23’, but there is a header (horribly undersized) located 8’ from the ridge, so the max rafter span is 15’. There are no joists, collar ties, or anything else to prevent the wall from being pushed out, but that is another story. The sheetrock is right on the 2×6 rafters. Over the years, the overloaded rafters have sagged ~1-3/4â€, cracking all of the sheetrock corners and being pretty unsightly from the outside.
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To fix this, a contractor was hired to jack the roof back to level, sister additional 2×6 rafters to the existing bowed rafters, and install additional rafters to give a 12†spacing. This work was apparently done, and the roof was pretty level afterwards. Of course, it took years for the original roof to sag.
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In addition, the contractor was to install a beam inside the living room to cut the 15’ span of the rafters in half. The total span of the new beam would be 19’. I would think the best way to do this would be to cut the sheetrock back and tie the beam solidly into the rafters so that it would be supporting the rafters and that the rafters would give the beam lateral support. Instead, the sheetrock was not cut back, and the beam was set ¼â€ to ½â€ below the sheetrock. It is not touching the ceiling anywhere. The only thing the beam is actually supporting is the living room ceiling fan. Looking at the attached picture (taken from in the attic), you can see the end of the beam, the ceiling sheetrock, the ceiling strapping, and the 2×6 rafter. I believe that if the ceiling does sag, it will crush the sheetrock, which has no backing in the area that will contact the beam, and that the cracks will be visible in the living room. Also, the roof will have a belly again, and although it won’t be as large as it is now, they are paying a lot of money to prevent it from happening period. The contractor claims that the roof won’t sag, and, if it does, the beam will stop it. What do you guys think about this? Does this sound reasonable?
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One other thing on the beam, the end on the outside wall is directly over the center of a window with a roughly 6’ opening. The contractor did not check the size of the window header. He said that he “assumed†it was done correctly when the house was built. I don’t think you can make that assumption, and, even if it was sized to carry the end wall loads, it was not sized to carry the roof weight from the new beam. Should the contractor have checked this? I understand that there are some unknowns in every job, but I would have thought this was obvious, and it could have been checked with minimal sheetrock damage.
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Thanks for your help.
Replies
cathedral type ceiling ok, is this a full cathedral or just half ? what is used for the existing ridge beam ?
The total span is 23’ span is the distance between the outside of the two walls where the rafters are bearing. is that what you mean, or are you saying that the rafter length is 23' ?
header (horribly undersized) located 8’ from the ridge, so the max rafter span is 15’ was this header existing ? is it still there ? max rafter span is 15'- do you mean rafter length between supports ? what is the size of this header ?
contractor was to install a beam inside the living room to cut the 15’ span of the rafters in half. The total span of the new beam would be 19’ span of the new beam. is 19' the length of the room ? what is the size of the beam ?
Instead, the sheetrock was not cut back, and the beam was set ¼” to ½” below the sheetrock. It is not touching the ceiling anywhere. NFG, why go through the trouble of tearing off the drywall to jack the roof and put rafters 12"oc and then put the support beam under the drywall ?
One other thing on the beam, the end on the outside wall is directly over the center of a window with a roughly 6’ opening. The contractor did not check the size of the window header. He said that he “assumed” it was done correctly when the house was built. from the sound of this, i doubt if the guy had any engineering done to check the 2x6 rafters at 12"oc or have the new beam sized properly. what is the beam bearing on at the other end ?
"assumed" for those of us in the repair business, this is one of our favorite words. for those "assuming", it means putting your insurance carrier on notice, again.
what stage is the job at now ? you care enough about your family's house to get help. what your family needs to do is hire a structural engineer to make a site visit and write a report on how things should be built. this should include a few drawings. yes, it's going to cost you, but you would have had to pay this fee anyway if your family had hired a pro instead of a rookie. don't bother trying to get the contractor to hire the PE because he won't. what you do with the engineer's recommendations is up to you. it probably means ripping some things apart for a do over.
but, i think you know that already
carpenter in transition
Sorry for the confusion. The rafter length from top of wall plate to ridge is 23'. Approximately 15' from the top plate of the outside wall (measuring along the rafter) is the existing header I mentioned as being undersized. I attached a very quick sketch that I hope will clear it up. I'm not sure how the ridge beam was constructed.
The existing header is constructed of double 2x8 material with a 19' span, and it is sagging as much as the roof (~1-3/4"), which is why I called it horribly undersized. It is still there, but I didn't really look at it to check sag after the roof was jacked up. I'm sure it is still sagging, but not as much.
The new beam was installed in the location shown on the sketch. The span (length) across the room of this new beam is 19'.
The only sheetrock that the contractor removed was on each end of the room where the new beam penetrated the walls. They didn't remove any sheetrock from the ceiling. Apparently, they jacked it up w/o damaging the sheetrock (I wasn't there). I attached 2 pictures showing the new beam ends. The beam has already been trimmed out at this point. Before it was trimmed out, you could see a gap between the top of the beam and the ceiling all the way along the beam's length.
The end of the new beam opposite the window goes into the attic directly over the side of a doorway below, so there should be support. Attached is a picture of the beam end in the attic. It looks kind of questionable (all fasteners are screws).
Hope that helps. At this stage, the contractor is about finished. My parents seemed to be ok with him saying he would warranty the work, but I know that it will take years for any problems to occur, and who knows if this company will be in business then.
Anyway, thanks for your input. It is greatly appreciated.
Thanks for the update.
My recommendation from earlier still remains.
I am curious, if the contractor didn't remove the drywall, how did he install new rafters on 12 inch centers ?
carpenter in transition
The roof shingles were being replaced at the same time, so they stripped off the OSB sheathing to add in the additional rafters.
Thanks again for your input.
the "contractor" is a hack in disguise. He is either an idiot, a thief, or a con man who thinks you are a fool. of course that roof will sag at least until it seats tight on the SR. If cut with a bevel, and with the strapping right tight behind the rock it might hold at that point, but he has not even provided any sort of bearing surface.
setting a beam with no suport under it is worse that nopt putting it in the begin with.
I also do not understand all the span info you give due to careless terminology, and have to assume, but I don't imagine that the extra 2x6's would solve the problem, but that they added cionsiderqbly toa cost that could have been less if an engineer had planned a solution for you . Now you still need his analysis and advice, and the cost of repairing this.
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Sorry for the confusion. Tim set me straight on the terminology. I posted a simple sketch and some additional pictures in response to Tim's post, which should help.
At this point, it appears that the solution is to start over. As far at the contractor is concerned, his contract apparently details everything he was to do including the new beam, rafters, etc. I suggested that they not pay him the remaining dollars until an engineer is involved. Of course, he will probably balk at that, so we will have to get one involved and confront him. That should be fun.
Thanks for your help.
GASP! What he has in there for underbeam suppport on the interior end viewd from attic is less than I would have fora temporary support while jacking it into a tight support position.
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I know this is one of them-there Red States, where they don't cotton to big govermint, but where was the building inspector in this process? Did the plans get approved? How have the inspections gone?
Around these parts, any structural remodelling needs an approved set of plans, and a framing inspection must be signed off on.
From what I have seen, enforcement is pretty light in this area. I doubt that he even got a permit. Plan to check into this today. Unfortunately, I was asked to help out with this once it was too late and most of the work had been done already.