Hi all,
I am going to be interviewing a few roofers and getting some quotes. What kind of questions would you guys recommend I ask to see if a roofer knows what he is doing with respect to properly flashing around chimneys etc..
What kind of questions would you ask a roofer in general
Anybody in Ottawa, Ontario Canada that can recommend a roofer? I know this is the busiest season, but I don’t want to have a bigger mess than I already have.
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Replies
I would ask what type of flashing they uses, how it is going to be counter flashed at the chimneys. Do they work with the masonry (grind out the mortar to properly install counter flashing)?
What type of roof are you installing?
Owen Roberts Group
10634 East Riverside Drive # 100
Bothell, WA 98011
http://www.owenrobertsgroup.com
Ask him how many men he has working for him, and how many jobs he has in progress.Make it clear that he can't start the job and show up every once in a while to work (try to get a start and completion date in writing) Find out what he'll do to tarp off the roof at night and how good his insurance is to cover damage from rain and liability (get proof of insurance and workmen's comp--no I don't know Canadian law).
What are his terms? Be sure not to pay the entire bill until everything is done and cleaned up, but expect to pay a good portion of it when the materials are delivered. Who's going to haul everything away? What about protection of landscape plantings, gutters, etc.? Are they putting ice and water membrane around the eave perimeter and in the valleys? How many nails per shingle? That one might be getting a little too far but you did ask!
Does that help?
Well said
Adam Greisz<!----><!---->
Owen Roberts Group<!---->
<!----><!----><!---->10634 East Riverside Drive # 100<!----><!----><!---->
<!----><!---->Bothell<!---->, <!---->WA<!----> <!---->98011<!----><!---->
http://www.owenrobertsgroup.com<!---->
Gents,
Thanks for the suggestions. They are just standard 3 tab shingles. The house is two stories, and quite high up there. Would it be rude of me to ask to climb the ladder to see the completed job? Maybe I should just lend them my digital camera :)
Thanks again!
Rav
Would it be rude of me to ask to climb the ladder to see the completed job?
It's your house. It would be rude of the roofer to not let you. On the other hand, if you don't know what you're looking for, there's no point.
Get references. Don't let the company with the slick salesman sway you. Beware of guys that show up in $40,000 trucks to do estimates. Somebodies got to pay for that truck. Also beware of the guys that show up in apiece of crap and need to borrow your ladder to measure the roof. Make sure they're insured.
More often than not, something goes wrong on a reroof. A window gets broken, landscaping gets damaged, a storm comes up during tearoff, etc. Keep the money flowing, but hold back a resonable amount until everything has been reconciled.
Get specs that your're happy with (flashing, etc.), go with the company that makes you feel most comfortable, watch them as much as posssible, but stay out of their way, and get the crew drinks and maybe lunch. A small kindness like that will often get you a lot of bang for your buck (or loonie). Good luck.I'm not green anymore.
As a roofer I can not have a non worker on my roof I could get fined big time, I also could be in deep if I were to get sued if something were to happen. If people aren't used to being on a roof it can be difficult to walk around up there.
Hi All,
I have gotten a few quotes, and was told by one roofer, who told me that Ice and Water shield is not necessary and he uses roofguard for the first few feet, and regular felt paper afterwards? (I live in Canada) He said if I wanted Ice and Water shield to add $800 to the price. The overall size of the roof is 50' x 25' (two semi-detached houses) with a hip roof i believe (4 sides) This same roofer also doesn't flash into the masonry, but rather caulks the flashing up against the brick chimney (I hate to rely on caulking) also, this is a two story house, so I don't ever see myself climbing up there to maintain caulking.
Are these redflags to you guys also? Besides these redflags, he seemed really nice, and clean etc... and had a nice contract with not pages of warranty disclaimers etc that the roofer my parents used had.
Thoughts?
Personally, I think I&WS is over used, but if you're gonna use it, use it right. If used on the eaves, it should be layed past a verticle line straight up from the out side wall.
This same roofer also doesn't flash into the masonry, but rather caulks the flashing up against the brick chimney (I hate to rely on caulking) also, this is a two story house, so I don't ever see myself climbing up there to maintain caulking.
If he can't flash a chimney properly, he ain't no roofer. Caulking to the chimney in lieu of counterflashing is not acceptable in any climate, especially yours.
I'm not very nice or clean (although I am a handsome man), but I'm a better than average roofer. I'd look a little further. Good luck.Birth, school, work, death.....................
LOL, thanks!
He actually said, nobody puts the counter flashing into the brick, because you would have to take the brick out, and put the flashing in and replace the brick.
Now, I would think there would be a way to take out some mortar fold in the flashing and then pack mortar back in there.
Would anybody have a diagram how to properly stepflash, then counter flash around chimneys? (for my own knowledge)
Cu is dead on when he tells you about Ice and water shield being used to excess.
Two courses at the eaves should be enough,with 30 lb. felt or the new underlayments used to cover the balance of the roof.
He's also correct about a roofer who can't solder pans for a chimney being just a shingler-not someone you'd want to keep water out of your house.
Keep looking!
Sounds like he is fullacrap! his descriptiuon of installling counterflashing shows that he has no idea...
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Unless your roof is extraordinarily steep, in your climate you definitely want at least one course of Bakkor Eave Guard at a minimum--use Blueskin if you're feeling rich. The top edge of the membrane has to be at least a couple of feet inside the buidling wall, 'cause that's where the water is gonna pool when the ice on the eaves gets to be a foot and a half thick in the spring....
If I understand the shape of your roof from your description, you have a total eaves length of 150 feet (two 50's plus two 25's). That means 3 rolls of membrane for a one-course coverage, which is standard unless there is a very large overhang. One roll of Eave Guard costs me a bit over $55 right now, and it's 65' long. It is also so easy to lay down it practically lays itself. So this guy's quote of an extra 800 bucks to add membrane at the eaves is way outta line.
Above the membrane, 15# felt laid for double-coverage is okay. But not if he just laps it 3" between courses. The felt should be lapped 18" (19.2" for metric rolls). The edges should be stuck down with a bead of pitch.
No decent roofer would even think about caulking a flashing flat to a masonry chimney. Period.
This guy sounds like a real loser.
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
ask if he'll provide a certificate of insurance with GL & WC for everyone on the job... most will not..
matter of fact.. i bet most people working on homes are not covered by WC.. too many weasels Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Ravz- Ask if they use nail guns or hand nail- I'd never want a nail gunned roof on my house- to much shingle mat damage- it's everywhere you look- sections of shingles slipping out . If it's an older house will they tighten up the boards with 8d ring nails- (out of a gun is fine here) and are they using 15 or 30# felt beyond the ice and water barrier? Why are you using 3 tab shingles? Two ply architecturals are the way to go in my opinion- those 3 tabs are so light you see at least one lift in the middle of every roof- and they look like what they were modeled after- a cardboard box divider!
byrnsie..... you're going to spend one heck of a loing time trying to find a roofer who will hand nail..
and like anything else... it's not the tool that does the damage.. it's the mechanic using the tool...
good roofing guns don't damage shinglesMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
As you know, I hand nail - but I'm a last of a dying breed.And I agree with you that hacks can damage shingles hand nailing just as easily as with a gun.nobopdy said to ask how much will it cost and what does that cover.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin- please help me out here - you say you hand nail, too. We know there's a reason for this- I've read many of your posts.
When I use shingles now,which isn't often anymore,I also believe hand nailing is best.On old board decks you can feel if you're into "meat" when you do it manually.With a gun it's harder to tell plus more cumbersome to fix{set gun down,grab hammer and hand nails,etc.}
Of course with slate hand nailing is always the method used,so it's not so foreign to me to use a hammer.
byrnsie-
Incompetence is incompetence - A poor shingler with a gun is no worse than a poor shingler with a hatchet. Getting paid by the square (forcing speed) is the problem. Hand nailers tend to skip nails. My shingle crew shoots a minimum of six nails in each shingle. If one nail is over driven and one is under driven, the shingle still is installed correctly. I've seen too many hand nailed roofs with 2 or 3 nails per shingle instead of the minimum of four.
On the issue of 1X sheathing- If the sheathing is 1x6 (5 1/2") and you're installing dimensionals (5 5/8" reveal), you need to lay out the first course so you miss the gap. If you do that, you'll never hit it all the way up. I don't have time to do the math right now, but on 1x8 or larger, there's quite a few courses between chances of hitting the gap. Wheather you're hand nailing or gun nailing, you have to nail above the nailing area on the shingle on hose courses.
I've shingled both ways and in my prime, I could hand nail and keep up with a gun nailer. But, I was worn out at the end of the day. Using a gun is not quite as tiring. Due to the nature of roofing (especially re-roofing) you don't put your tools up at a given time. You quit when you're finished. A tired shingler at the end of the day is more prone to miss a nail or two.
Telling this guy not to hire gun nailing shinglers is about like telling him not to hire a shingler who drives a Ford. References, references, references.
The best way to find a good roofer ( or any other tradesman, for that matter) is find a fairly new roof that you like the looks of ( similar to what you want ) and knock on the door and ask who did it and what the experience was like. A roof is a major purchase and 9 out of 10 people like to discuss their major purchases with a complete stranger who has complemented it. An alternate method would be to leave a note in their mailbox with your phone number. Chances are you'll get a call.
I'm not green anymore.
"The best way to find a good roofer...is find a fairly new roof that you like the looks of and knock on the door and ask who did it and what the experience was like."I think this only works if you find a roof that is at least five years old.I've repaired plenty of roofs that looked great and were only a couple of years old and the owner had no problems at the time of installation, but...the shingles were all nailed high with overdriven nails.If you pick a one year old roof you could believe the roofer was great only to get a really bad roof.Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.
byrnsie,
you probably do an excellent job on the 2 roofs or so a year that you do
however----your opinion is not really based on fact. It's your opinion , and it based on a limmited range of experience( 2 roofs a year)
I hand nail some things also------not because it's better---not because its worse------but for the simple reason sometimes I feel like doing it by hand.
It is Slower.
but----the problems you are attributing to varying air pressure( nonsense BTW)
are most likely due to improper nail placement----in short the nails were installed to far up the shingle---out of the nail zone and are providing no secondary fastening for the underlying course.
The same thing would happen with a hand nail driven in the same position( and hand nails DO get driven out of position)
roofs that are hand nailed by crews of ordinary roofers are prone to a couple of problems.---High nailing as previously described( same problem as gun nailing)-----and ALSO short nailing.
Particulary common to find 3 tab roofs, racked straight up the roof and short nailed. Every other shingle has only 3 nails in it. this defect will be less likely if the roof is stairstepped.
A poor workman---without proper supervision ---is prone to doing a poor job either by hand or with air.
A concientious worker---will do an equally good job---either by hand,or with air, with less supervision----BUT he will do it FASTER with air.
a couple of last things--------there are several hundred" roofing contractors" in my town. I know of EXACTLY one who nails by hand. the contractor hasn't been on a roof in over a decade and a half. the quality of his roofs---average.( I know because I have subbed some of my overflow to him in the past.)----his hand nailed roofs----average----his employees are paid LESS than anyone elses and he doesn't even use a sheet metal brake to bend flashing. he can produce an average product on a plain vanilla roof----but if you require something more you will not get it with a hand nailed job in this town.
Again----I am sure that you do excellent work on the 2 roofs a year that you do------it's just that your opinions seem to be based on some erronious assumptions.
Very best wishes to you,
Stephen
BTW---I will agree that hand nailing is an OUTSTANDINGLY good marketing gimmic---really ,really excellent if you can project a sort of old world vibe about you. If I was ever to go back to having employees and had access to low skilled workers working for peanuts---------I would give serious thought to the " hand nailed roofs" marketing strategy. It's a niche market that would be an easy sell.
eww, that's almost creepy.
My wife has some superstitious saying when two people say the same thing at the same time. Can't remember what it is.............................I'm not green anymore.
Hey, greencu
Is Berea anywhere near you ?
Stephen
Yeah - about 30 miles south. Gotta pass thru Lexington on the way. You going to the Craft festival?I'm not green anymore.
All.......FHB, July 2005 NO 172. 10 Roof Goofs page 85 Diagram "first course shingles overhang drip edge by 3/4 in." What is the reason for doing this? Never heard of such a thing , please enlighten old carpenter/roofer.
several reasons, nails.
first off---that's the way I was taught to do it. LOL
2nd------ I want the water to fall clear of the drip edge and straight into the gutter. I do not want the water to be dependent on the drip edge for finding it's way into the gutter. the drip edge is a back up----just to protect the lower edge of the sheeting----a trim piece----not a wear piece. typically I am going to be dealing with a 32ft. piece of gutter draining to one end---the gutter ends up well below the drip edge anyway. water falling from the lowest edge of the drip edge is gonna run between the fascia and the gutter
third------ the bottom edge of the roof decking is NOT going to be a straight line----and it is NOT necissarily even parallel with the ridge. A 3/4" overhang lets you snap a straight line---and lets you keep all other lines straight---even if gauging with a hatchet( when I nailed by hand I only snapped one horizontal chalk line---and gauged all other courses) the 3/4" overhang---in a way ----serves as a reveal in woodwork, door & window trim etc.---hiding inconsistencies. I used to have a sub crew that liked to snap a chalkline for a 1/2" overhang.---on some older houses there is quite a belly along that bottom edge and they would end up with some drip edge exposed.
BTW---I don't think I have ever cut the tabs off a starter course as shown in the picture----just flip a shingle upside down. torn off well over a thousand roofs----I can remember exactly ONE that had a starter with the tabs cut off----I remember that one cause it was the ONLY one.
very best wishes, Stephen
stepnen..... One of the great benifits here at BT is to have a well thought out response to a question that has been asked and yours is a fine example. Having
never done a 3/4 shingle overhang ( in 30+ yrs) you have answered my question.
I would like to make some comments why I do it differently, I to having been taught how to in the begining, I questioned the why. The first thing that enters my mind is what effect 30days of 99 degrees sun has on curling the edges of the over hanging shingle , I belive they will sag causing the granules to seperate somewhat and deteriorate of a period of seasonal changes and in the beginning will allow updraft or cross winds to have some place to put stress on the shingle edges.
I have found that trimming the edges with a hook blade or even pre cutting the starter shingles (at the gable) and even using a starter roll will not give as clean a line , from the ground , as would cutting flush with drip edge.
The method I use in installation of gutters is to make sure the fascia is under the drip edge and likewise install the gutters level also under the drip edge. As to level gutters I depend on the 4in depth of the gutter to allow the water to flow , questioning low spots of the gutter on Installation has never been a problem and the level gutter gives you a paralell line with the roof and eliminates the tilt effect of what the gutter style was meant to be , an ogee molding trim detail.
From the same article "Open valleys with W type valley flashing are superior" , with the exception of metal roofs ,in residentual construction this has gone the way of the old style of "lacing" the valley ,which was probably the best insurance due to the mutiple layers of shingles even though it created a slight bulge in the valley.
Although a very good article and a great explanation from you it's interesting the different methods that are used to get quality in the roofing phase all work well with attention to the why's that determine the how's.
Nails,
in my climate---ohio----we don't have many 99 degree days---let alone 30 in a row.
HERE the 3/4" overhand has never been a problem ---it doesn't sag. ( I have seen some shed roofs and DIY projects with about a 2" overhang that do sag pretty badly.
what I like to do with the gable ends is run a soldier course op the rake( like a starter course) when I trim the shingles with a hook knife I try to trim them about 1/16" inside the soldier course line ----so that from the ground the factory edge of the soldier course is the perfectly straight line that you see.--------I used to snap a chalk line and cut them all at once------but on old house the rake board is often a banana---so a straight chalk line is off kilter.------------what I do NOW is trim about 6 courses at a time as I shingle up the rake using another shingle as a straight edge----fast and easy---and one less chalkline to snap.
with the w valleys-------yes it is old fashioned. when I went into the roofing business---for the first few years I did mostly repair work. this was excellent training because it let me learn a lot from other peoples mistakes!!!! Taking things apart and tracking down leaks showed me what NOT to do later on when I was selling whole roof projects( this is an education I would have missed if I had come up in business through the new construction market where speed is KING)
repairs on woven and california cut valleys--- were my bread and butter for years-----but I noticed I NEVER got calls from folks needing repairs on old fashioned W valleys----NEVER.
so when I began to sell entire roofing projects----I spec'ed W valleys as part of the project---and explained why.
but there is a labor shortage of qualified roofers who can and will install a w valley well. I believe the W valley is best----but I can no longer personally install EVERY valley on EVERY roof I sell. unfortuneately I must sell what the available labor force CAN do well. Unless I know that I will PERSONALLY be handling the valley---I no longer usually spec the W valley.
so---the long and the short of it is that in the future there will be even LESS w valleys because there are virtually no roofers left who know how to install them well.
BTW---I forgot to mention about the gutters. It freezes here. We frequently have tight site considerations on old lots----30', 32', 44' gutters which can only drain ONE direction. A 32 ' level gutter is gonna generate A LOT OF ICE and come crashing down LOL. Even with some pitch you will still frequently find 2-3 " of ice in the bottom of the gutter.
Intersting that what we individually think of as "best" is what works best in our personal experience ????
Best wishes to you,
Stephen
> but there is a labor shortage of qualified roofers who can and will install a w valley well.
I'm surprised to hear that. What's so difficult about a sheet metal "W"? What do they screw up? What would it take to teach them to do it right?
-- J.S.
The biggest screw up I have seen there is that they actually nail into the metal, poking holes through it. Dhuh! Had one hammer down all the returns flat so they couldn't catch water backups.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Steve- after saying that my opinion isn't based on fact- I'm wondering what makes you think flipping the starter course upside down is the correct way to begin a roof. Just because everyone else does it - it's right? I've seen the wind (and I'm not talking about a hurricane,either) take an entire 1st row of shingles off a building a relative in Satalight Beach, FL owned because his roofing contractor didn't follow the instructions on the package either. Also here in New England I've been called to fix broken shingles cracked when lifted as they were bumped by a roof rake- all because someone couldn't take the time to cut the tabs off to make sure the shingles were correctly adhered at the edge.
byrnsie-----
don't get your panties in a KNOT.
I did NOT say flipping a shingle upside down was the right way.
what I did say was---that was the way "I" do it-------and also ---statistically-----every other roofer in my area.-----BECAUSE in my area----that method works WONDERFULLY.
If it doesn't work in your area----don't do it.
In MY area where we would see blow offs---is typically within 2-3 feet of the ridge. virtually never at the bottom edge.
I say virtually never----because I have seen it exactly once---on a ranch style home---at the top of a hill---next to an expressway over pass.---and that house had blow-offs in several other areas as well ( not my work BTW)
so---to sum up
I am gonna base my practices on what are time proven methods in MY area-----what I have personally observed as working well for decades----in MY area.
I don't have the slightest concern on what works in Florida----because I am not practicing in Florida--------Nor do I have the slightest interest in what the codes regaurding earthquake compliance in California are----I am not framing in California.
I have roofed TOO MANY houses LOL.------but byrnsie---if you roof enough houses---you learn it's about selecting from a bag of tricks to produce the best product in a given situation. the same brand/same color of shingle will look different on 2 different sides of the street---or even next door to each other---due to different light conditions. the "right" flat roofing material on one house---might be "wrong" on the next house----due to complexity--or expected foot trafffic or overhanging tree limbs. you will find yourself saying " ordinarily---I wouldn't do it this way---but in THIS case I think this will solve a LOT of problems".
It's just my opinion byrnsie---but I don't think 2 roofs a year would give me enough perspective to rationally decide when and where the right way was the wrong way---and when the "wrong" way might be the perfect way.---given the situation.
best wishes to you,
Stephen
Wow that was alot of opinions- what happened to the facts you were so bent on in your last message.
First of all, Nobody coming on the sight to read your messages about roofing necessarily knows where the advice is from - so it makes sense to talk about the way to do do things by the book. Even if you live in say, some windless farm area you never know- some buddy may back up to your house to show off his jet powered dragster or something.
Furthermore, you're judging my qualifications to give advice because I said I only do about 2 complete roofs a year- that's because my remodeling and addition jobs have expanded into the bigger part of my business now. I roof all the additions and dormers I do as well, but that doesn't mean I'm not qualified to talk about roofing. Over the 20 years I've been in business believe me, I've done plenty of roofs too, and we both know roofing ain't rocket science, so believe me I don't need to catch up to your roof volume before I can speak about it.
I think ,byrnsie,---that we have agreed to dis-agree.
for now----what I will try to do is------- NOT draw on my "vast" experience of---say--- hanging 10-12 doors a year, and then telling the folks here who hang that many doors in a week that they should throw out their Stabilas'---and confine themselves to using only a plumb bob.
see?---I have learned from your example already!!!!! (LOL)
Best wishes, Stephen
John Sprung,
I just tried to post a rather detailed reponse to your questions---but couldn't get it through the system.
Rather than re-type all THAT ,LOL
Let's just say that roofing is typically a "pass through" occupation--------
and there is little incentive to teach an employee what is now a seldom used technique----when the employer knows there is little chance the employee will be with you a month or so down the road---let alone next year.
In the last 20 years or so ,HERE,
icegaurd has made the california valley virtually idiot proof----and the w valley all but extinct.
also---the most important value of the w valley is its extended life at the end of a roofs lifecycle----if you aren't concerened about the roof 25-30 years from now---typically a customer won't pony up for the effort and expense NOW.
Best wishes, Stephen
Thanks for the reply. I just did a pair of "W's" for my copper roof, and didn't find it all that difficult. But now you got me wondering if maybe I screwed something up....
-- J.S.
I just did a pair of "W's" for my copper roof, and didn't find it all that difficult. But now you got me wondering if maybe I screwed something up....
I'm sure you didn't screw any thing up. What Stephen is refering to is the little bit of extra work necessary at the drip edge and the ridge with "W" valley. Without the proper attention, it often looks bad.
I'm not green anymore.
John---I am sure you did fine
but keep in mind----you are a highly intelligent, thoughtfull person.
greencu is ,of course a true artist in his material---a genius
Piffen is an old hand with wide ranging talents and experience
and "I" at least, like to think that I think carefully through the consequences of my actions---in advance.
None of these ,however, are qualities readily available on the open market when hiring roofing employees.
It pains me to say that----10 years ago I would have been insulted to hear roofers decribed that way------but experience employing them since has taught me differently.
If I can't even expect them to show up reliably on time---I can't hope to teach 'em, THIS---LOL.
BTW---I should apologize to Piffen---but all the W valleys I have taken apart here-------and most of them were reliably in service 60-80 years-------were galvanized sheet metal---nailed about 3/4" in from the edge. I am afraid we universally "do it wrong" here.----and yet---they worked wonderfully.
Best wishes,
Stephen
cu,
my house hold owns a few products from Berea college and I am told the whole town is kind of like an artisan community.
I have a lot of time available for the next 5 weeks or so-----no firm plans---but may swing through the area.
I am a little hesitant though because I was in the Lexington area a few years ago for a junior olympics race my son was in ( july?, august?)
I thought 88 degrees with high humidity in Akron was hot----I didn't no hot untill I sat in that stadium in lexington.
I also enjoyed the buildings at the shaker village outside of town.
Stephen
That stadium can be a killer.
I've really only been to Berea during the festival and to eat at the old Inn. There is a pretty large hippie contingent around that area.
It's been pretty sticky the last few days. Gets to about 90 and then rains for about 15 mins, then the sun comes back out.
We're getting ready to start a job on one of the prettiest horse farms in the area. Let me know if you're coming down and I'll be glad to give you and yours a Lexington tour (highlighted by some roof projects, of course) if you're interested. If it's during the week, we can see a little of the horse farm that's not on the tours.
CheersI'm not green anymore.
but----the problems you are attributing to varying air pressure( nonsense BTW)
I agree Stephen.
It's a common misperception that nails are overdriven because of air pressure. That leads me to the next conclusion: you cant adjust the depth of the nail by reducing your air pressure!
Most guns will deliver set a nail at a very consistent depth if the airpressure is set at the proper range: somewhere between 90 and 120 psi, depending on the tool. Once the best psi is determined, it's simply a matter of adjusting the length of the driver. Many of the newer tools accomplish this by adjusting the nosepiece.
Years ago, no tools had adjustable nosepieces. I managed to create a very good flush setting pine gun by grinding the driver to my specs and I ran that tool for years at 120psi ( a senco).
Also, anyone that runs a nailgun 40 hours a week can tell when they are not hitting solid bearing.
If I was selling roofs, I'd be able to overcome any homeowner's objection to gun nailing by explaining what I've just typed. I'd make a guy look pretty silly for claiming that nailing with a gun was inferior.
blue
My reason is as antiquated as I am.
Back when I started shingling I learned to hand nail. It took me six hard months to get the hang of fingering the nails out fasty enough to make it. After maybe 2-1/2 years mostly with the same crew, one day I noticed the truck of a competitor parked near a job I was shingling. End of the day, the guy approached me and introduced himself - super for the biggest roofing company in town. he had just lost his #1 shingler. They did mostly hot work BUR commercial but still had to have a shingle crew.I hired on as his shingle foreman for a sizeable pay increase. At the time, I was averaging 15-16 squares a day hand nailing on roofs that were already dried in and stocked.he got me to using an air system. it was a frustrating experience. Back then, guns were not as good as they are now. no depth of drive adjustment, and with shingle texture and density changing thru the course of the day, trying to get it to drive nails acceptably and consistantly was frustrating. I had to keep reaniling by hand anyway, and my daily average dropped to twelve squares. some jobs did not have power suply enough for the compressor so re-setting the breakers added to the fun. We had a gas powered one too, that was as much fun to be with as a dog full of porcupine quills.Add to that, the fact that I am not pleased wioth having to do ANY KIND OF MECHANICAL work. I had a mental block against machinery made stronger by the failures of that tool pachage. I convinced him to let me go back to hand nailing.That was way back in about '73. Since then, compressors and guns have gotten more efficient, but in the meantime, I went on to laying more cedar than asphalt and to doing my remodel and restoration work and subbing out half the roofing I get. I only do roofs as part of the larger job now. My health is getting to where I doubt that I will be doing any more roofs personally, so it is not any advantage for me to switch to air now. i'd never recoup the cost.But all these guys are telling you the truth. Excellent work can be haad with a gun. It is in the skill and attitude of the installer.Still, I'll throw you a bone here. A good customer called me this spring about a property that they had had re-roofed three or four years before. Said there were a few shingles laying in the yard after the wind storm. The attached photo shows why. The nails were placed too high and out of the nail zone. These particular ones were gun driven, but I have another photo from the front of the house with the same problem. They were hand driven. Apparantly that crew only had one nail gun but neither of them knew where to place the nails.You can also see from the photo that some of these shingles had blown off even earlier but gone un-noticed. You can see that by the sun bleached tarpaper
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Great photo! Great description! There should be a seperate forum for photos like that. I'd like to add one of the last drywaller that I fired...
Douglas T in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada
Thanks Piffin-
Your picture and my assault on guns, I think has made the point, to the guy looking for a roofer, the importance of nailing shingles properly- it's the difference between a good roof and problems down the road.
Mike , you say it's the roofer not the tool- but tell "CU" to tell that to the crew thats arrived at his house to start slamming the shingles down.
"I'd never want a nail gunned roof on my house- to much shingle mat damage"For the record, an incompetent roofer will screw up the hand nailing or the gun nailing.A competent roofer can gun nail without damaging the shingle.Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.
Ask if they use nail guns or hand nail- I'd never want a nail gunned roof on my house- to much shingle mat damage- it's everywhere you look- sections of shingles slipping out .
Maybe they're using trim guns. Seriously, you must have some bad roofers out there then. What Mike said is true. It's the way the tools is used. I doubt that every roof you see nailed by a gun is falling apart. It will be hard to find a roofing company that doesn't use a nail gun just like trying to find a framing crew who doesn't use a nail gun and nails by hand.
If a customer asked me to nail by hand I would walk away or charge them a million dollars extra.
Joe Carola
Edited 7/15/2005 11:18 pm ET by Framer
I'm with you on the framing 100%- I'm definetly using a gun on the frame, but I'm also using 5/8 ply so if the nail goes a little deep there's plenty left. I roof the additions I do, and usually do maybe 2-4 roof jobs a year. I let the customer know my price is higher because hand nailing is more labor intensive but always give them an adress of a house within a few streets of them that has shingle fallout. This is Boston suburbs and I'm not saying every roof is falling out but I see plenty that are. I believe that roofers with guns are going so fast the air is trying to catch up then it does and so varying pressure means the nails are in varying degrees of too high to too deep. I'll keep hand nailing. I also have recommend friends a local roofer who will only hand nail- he agrees it's the way to do it.
I'm with you on the framing 100%- I'm definetly using a gun on the frame, but I'm also using 5/8 ply so if the nail goes a little deep there's plenty left.
Regardless of the thickness of the decking, if you break thru the surface you lose the strength of the decking, or sheathing be it CDX, or OSB.
My point is what it is- that if a nail goes a touch deep in 5/8 plywood it isn't like your going into a fiberglass mat that once ripped has lost it's holding power.
Are you crazy ? You want an entire roof hand nailed! Gun nailing is not the cause of shingles coming undone. It is nail placement too many people nail too high on the shingle.
I'm about three hours away from you, and am almost tempted to offer to come down to Ottawa and do it for you myself. But it could get complicated since I don't have any local sources of materials down there and I'd have to charge for travel and lodging for me and my crew. Plus I don't know any local masons or sheet-metal fabricators if there are issues with your chimney.
E-mail me privately through the forum and I'll see if I can turn up a recommendation for you in the Ottawa area. (Just reply to this post and then check the radio button below 'POST' under the signature box where it says 'Reply by E-mail'.)
Basically, I'd recommend you look for a good remodeler who does roofing instead of a specialized 'roofing company'. That way you stand a lesser chance of getting scammed by a quick strip-and-slap outfit, of which, sadly, there are too many. You need someone who will not be trying to get done as fast as possible because he's charging by the square. You will get a better job--and likely cost yourself less in the long run--if you are willing to deal on a 'Time and Materials' basis. You won't know exactly how much it will cost until it's all done...but you will know that all the work that needs to be done will be done.
Re-roofing work is notorious for turning up unpleasant surprises when the shingles are stripped. Someone who's on a per-square contract might be tempted to ignore and quick-cover things that really should be fixed, especially since you won't be able to see it yourself unless you do indeed climb up there to look. They know it probably won't leak right away, because shingles work pretty well.
But if the roof deck is compromised by rot or loose sheathing, it will eventually loosen the shingles and start leaking. By then, the roofer's warranty period could very well be over and you could wind up paying for a repair job that could have been avoided. Forget about depending on the shingle manufacturer's 15- or 25-year warranty; those are not worth the paper they are printed on. And they don't cover labour anyway....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Preferably,
you want a roofer who was referred to you.
you want one who provides you with a workers comp cert. and a liability ins. cert---BEFORE you ask for it
You want a roofer who does not depend on a tarp or felt overnight---instead he replaces whatever roofing/ flashing is torn off each day---so that you---(and he)
are completely in the dry each night.
Crew size is often irrelevant----what you really want to know is how long the project is gonna take.
there is no real good reason for any damage to your property. Ask how your house, siding,landscaping etc. will be protected during the project. ( I had a window broken last year on one of my projects----first one in about 8 years).---It happens---but it should be extremely rare.
It WOULD be extremely rude to assume that you are welcome to climb up the roofers ladders or equipment to visit the roof( you become HIS liability)
Wanna climb your own ladder?----go right ahead.
ask for some references-----if he can't provide 'em---watch out. If he CAN provide 'em----no big deal---he otta have satisfied customers.
Instead---ask for adresses of houses he has done nearby----check THOSE out.
Ask why he is suggesting brand x instead of brand y or brand z.
Call the BBB---he doesn't have to be a member. you can't please everyone so one or two complaints may not mean anything----but a long string of complaints should tell you a lot.
you mentioned, I believe, using 3 tab shingles----------be aware---as a roofing contractor use of 3 tabs is becoming extrememly rare ( I haven't done a 3 tab roof yet this year.)------ A customer demanding a 3tab roof is going to suggest( to my mind) a customer looking for a low price roof. Combine that with a customer asking a lot of questions etc.---and you become a less attractive prospect.
I am willing to jump through only so many hoops. I will jump through several to sell a good priced, profitable roof------------ but I won't jump through many for a low end roof---and the 3tab specification is gonna signal low end to me---more often than not.
Very best wishes,Stephen
you mentioned, I believe, using 3 tab shingles----------be aware---as a roofing contractor use of 3 tabs is becoming extrememly rare ( I haven't done a 3 tab roof yet this year.)------ A customer demanding a 3tab roof is going to suggest( to my mind) a customer looking for a low price roof. Combine that with a customer asking a lot of questions etc.---and you become a less attractive prospect.
I am willing to jump through only so many hoops. I will jump through several to sell a good priced, profitable roof------------ but I won't jump through many for a low end roof---and the 3tab specification is gonna signal low end to me---more often than not.
Can I give a big "AMEN" on that.....................I'm not green anymore.
I just reroofed my house this spring. I've used three tab shingles in the past. I decided to use laminated shingles this time.
They were more expensive but they should be. They are heavier, last longer, and have a longer warranty. (I agree with the posts about warranties being useless. However, the length of warranty may be indicative of the quality of the product.) I needed four bundles per square instead of three. I used the IKO brand and was extremely pleased with them.
The instalation was simple. In fact, there was even a thin blue line to mark where the nails had to be placed...one less thing to think about. Due to the random pattern, I didn't have to worry about a vertical control line.
I couldn't imagine doing a roof without an air nailer. Hand nailing is extremely time consuming and would make a difficult job unbearable. I adjust my air pressure and make sure that the nails aren't overdriven (or underdriven) throughout the day.
The self adhesive water proof membrane is great stuff. I wouldn't consider doing a roof without it. I ran it on the entire roof up to the ridge since it gave so much added protection. For an extra few hundred dollars, the roof is not going to a source of concern for a couple of decades. When I do start to look at the thining shingles, the membrane will still be protecting the entire roof and sealing around all of the roof nails.
Douglas T in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada
the biggest failing with most roofers around here is the failure to do proper chimney flashing....most any decent roofers can deal with deck problems, & nail shingles, but most companies don't have anyone who knows how, or is willing to do proper chimney flashing...
Didn't know any better - I just started with the Better Business Bureau to find people that had been in the business for awhile and no outstanding complaints. (don't know if Canada has an equivalent or not) - found five roofing contractors in my area and asked for quotes.
The last guy to come out and give me a quote was about $200 cheaper than anybody else. He asked how close he was to the other bids and I told him $200. I just didn't mention that he was cheaper. He dropped his bid by $200 and I said "It's a deal"
A crew of four very hard working Hispanics came out, tore off the old shingles, replaced a couple of pieces of sheeting, put on a new roof (23 squares) - all hand nailed, cleaned up the area and were gone in about 9 hours total. Roof looks fine and I am happy with the result.
I dunno about Ottawa laws, but in Brantford there are laws against anyone doing any work without $2,000,000 in liability insurance. A quick call to the engineering dept. at city hall will let you know who is insured and who isn't. This is an easy way to weed out the fly-by-nights. If they take the time to register, they mean to stay in business. If they aren't insured, you don't want them anyway.
Try calling city hall there and see if there is any sort of a registry. View Image