I’m visiting my parents for the weekend. They just had a new roof put on this week. My mom is rather upset because at some point they managed to knock of 3 inherited 18th century collectors plates from the display shelf smashing them into the solid-surface stove. The plates are a total loss, of course, and the top of the stove is now badly gouged.
The roofers managed to completely strip the decking and put up new sheathing + tar paper before this happened. We’re guessing at some point they craned the shingles up there and just let them drop as a whole.
The roofers said ‘sorry, but there’s nothing we can do’.
Is that normal, or do roofers typically carry some sort of insurance for this type of thing?
My parents would put a claim into their own insurance, but they already had one big claim this year due to storm damage (2 claims in a year and the insurance has the right to drop them).
Lesson learned, I guess, but I don’t think I would have had the foresight to think that the roofers would be doing that much banging either.
Replies
Darrel
I'm sure there will be some roofers in here to tell you better but if it was there fault I would think that there is something that can and should be done about it.
Doug
Ask the roofer for the name of his insurancxe agent, and start a conversation with him/her.
Do it right, or do it twice.
It doesn't matter if they are insured or not. If they caused the damage, they should make good on it.
I'm not sure your lack or foresight = someone elses problem.
But, I would look at the roofers contract.
I spell that scenario out in my contracts, then I tell the customers verbally that we will be banging on their house.
Having said that, people hang all kinds of stuff from their walls and I have paid for some of it just to keep my good name.
From my perspective, I would try and mitigate these types of damages by forewarning you, but in any event, I contracted to replace your roof, not safeguard all the things that you have in your house that I probably have not even seen.
Use your best judgement before pursuing this but having said-
I don't think I would have had the foresight to think that the roofers would be doing that much banging either..
Why would you think the roofer would have the foresight to see that the minimal banging that they were doing would cause this damage.
I'm not sure this is the purpose of the insurance, either. Some things you just have to suck up.
Tom
I'm self-insured, so I'm not in a position to speak much about what a roofer's standard liability policy would cover. But it's unclear from your post as to whether or not anybody, the roofers included, actually knows what caused the plates to bust themselves on the stove top. Do your folks own a cat, or a 3-year-old, BTW?
I find it unlikely the roofers would have 'craned the shingles up and just let them drop'--yard delivery trucks do drop loads or bump things from time to time, but no boom operator in his right mind is going to drop a load that heavy on a roof deck. Besides, if it's the yard's driver that bumped the plates off the shelf, why should the roofer pay for the damage?
If there is no direct evidence that the roofers caused them to fall, you folks are gonna have to reclaim from their insurance carrier to get any $$$ on this one, seems to me. I certainly wouldn't say the roofers should get off scot-free if it's really their fault--but it wouldn't be just IMO to blame them just because they were there when it happened.
As a responsible contractor I will own up to incidental damage I know I or my crew caused through accident or negligence. But I think I'd feel put upon if asked to pay under circumstances where nobody is sure what actually caused the damage. I guess whether I paid or not would depend on how much damages were demanded in relation to the profits on the job and the value of maintaining a future relationship with the client.
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
Thanks for all of the replies!
"I'm not sure your lack or foresight = someone elses problem."
I'm not sure either. Hence me asking. ;o)
In this case, they had managed to re-sheath the entire roof. All they had left to do was shingle. I'm not sure if anyone would assume that that would somehow jar the house to the extent of knocking things off of shelves.
If this is a regular type of event for these guys, you'd think they would have warned my parents. But I'm guessing they maybe dropped the shingles a tad hard when they craned them up there and just don't want to fess up. ;o)
"Why would you think the roofer would have the foresight to see that the minimal banging that they were doing would cause this damage"
Well, that's the thing, we don't think this was 'minimal banging'. Like I said, they managed to do a complete tear-off down to the rafters, re-sheath and tarpaper while my parents where there. It was only after my parents had left, and all they had left to do was nail the shingles down that this happened. We're thinking they weren't too careful dropping the pallete of shingles up there.
"Do your folks own a cat, or a 3-year-old, BTW? "
A cat, yes, but it's not allowed anywhere except the basement ;o)
No 3 year olds. At least not left alone in the house. ;o)
"I find it unlikely the roofers would have 'craned the shingles up and just let them drop'"
I do too...it's all speculation. I'm guessing whatever it was, it was certainly an accident.
...it's all speculation. I'm guessing whatever it was, it was certainly an accident.
Okay, so nobody knows what happened. So get off the roofer's case and try to get back some of those premiums your folks have been paying for their HO insurance for all those years. Or eat it and shut up if you're afraid of your insurance carrier the way they want you to be....
Just remember--you can be 'sure' of something without really knowing that it's so; but the fact that you're sure doesn't mean you're not wrong. I think you owe the roofer an apology for having assumed he broke the stuff.
Object lesson: I once had a pair of very old bamboo back-country poles disappear from the rack at a ski centre. Knowing they had vanished in the previous 20 minutes I was sure the culprit was already gone, but I alerted everybody I could anyway and we all ran through the parking lot looking for them in people's hands, or on roof-racks. Finally, I spotted a car with it's trunk open parked near the exit of the on-site lodge, but no one near the vehicle. I looked in the trunk and couldn't believe my eyes: there were the poles! I grabbed them, then checked the license plate. Ha! From the US. From New York, no less! Double Ha!
When the woman who owned the car came out I jumped in her sh!t so hard she hardly knew what hit her. After a couple of back and forths I stomped off to the office with the poles to call the police. The director of the centre wanted to mediate the problem without getting the cops involved, so he sent for the woman and had her come into the office.
The poles were not marked with my name or anything; I'd never seen another pair like them and I'd had them for so many years I knew every detail of their construction by heart, though: Black grips, white leather straps with black buckles; slightly torn manufacturer's sticker on one pole; straps adjusted to my hand and wrist size and the stub of the strap taped down with white medical tape. I was so sure they were my poles I never hesitated an eye-blink to accuse her.
But the director pointed out that nobody had seen her steal them and that they had no positive identification on them. So he gave them back to her and offered to give me a brand new set of very expensive graphite shaft back country poles from the ski shop. I didn't want them; I wanted MY poles back. But I grumbled, stomped out, went to the ski shop, picked up his generous gift and threw them angrily into the back of my truck.
When I got home, there was a message waiting on my answering machine. One of the other ski coaches wanted me to call him. He'd just gotten home to find that he had TWO sets of identical back country poles in the back of his van--so he'd gone back to the ski centre and heard the story of my 'stolen' poles. He realized that he'd taken them by mistake, not knowing his wife had already put his into the van as they were collecting gear and kids at the end of the day.
I thought I was gonna fall through the floor. I wanted to vanish into my own a$$hole. That poor woman!
In the morning, I went to the market and bought a bottle of wine, some expensive cheese, fruit, a fancy wicker basket, and so forth, and went back to the ski centre hoping she was still around. I caught her coming out of the lodge, packing her car to leave. She looked surprised to see me again, but when I showed her my poles and she compared them with hers, she was gracious--a lot more gracious than I thought I would have been in her place--and accepted the basket. I apologized the best I could and got out of there, feeling like a worm.
I'm sorry about your folks' plates. I've got some from my grandmother that it would break my heart to lose; so I empathize.
But remember the ski poles, dude....
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
I was roofing away on a place once and the lady came out to complain that we were making too much noise for her and that the pictures on the walls were not staying straight.
As a roofer, I have often heard from customers that they needed to straighten pictures on the walls when I have been nailing shingles so I have learned to mention this beforehand.
As a remodelor, I have seen way too many cases where people have things hung on walls with inappropriate hardware. Items everywhare that are just looking for any excuse from a door slamming to a big sneeze before they fal off. One lady ahd a candle sconce that was leaning out from the wall. She asked me to see if I could figure out why it was leaning. I was in the act of reaching for it to investigate when it fell into my hands. Had I not been there, a lot of glass shards would have been on the floor.
I have no doubt that the vibrations from the roofers haaad something to do with those plates falling, but the only way the roofer should be held accountable is if it can be shown that they were somnehow careless or negligent and that this negligence CAUSED the breakage. You should plan to eliminate other potential causes and contributors such as the builder who did not build the house solid enough to prevent this, the hardware manufacturer who provided the hrdwr to hang the plates, the installer of that hardware, and anyone who had touched those plates to clean them or admire them, amoung other potential causes. You would also need to be able to prove that these items were perfectly undamaged before the roofers showed up.
This particular scenario also smells to me. Items that are "priceless" to some are replaceable from a yard sale table down the street sometimes. Antiques and memorabilia values are often inflated in cases like this so insurance companies are suspicious from the git-go.
Excellence is its own reward!
Pfiffin:
All good points. Namely the 'sturdiness of the house'. They just don't make 'em like they used to...
"This particular scenario also smells to me."
Well, the plates were never appraised. They were valuable, but meant more as personal belongings than as investments. I think my mother was mostly upset with the damage to the new stove.
OK so it's not the money you are after - that smells better.
The roofer should possibly have given warning but how well those plates were hung is a definite issue..
Excellence is its own reward!
"I have no doubt that the vibrations from the roofers haaad something to do with those plates falling, but the only way the roofer should be held accountable is if it can be shown that they were somnehow careless or negligent and that this negligence CAUSED the breakage."
They don't have to DO some thing to be megligent.
"IF" these kind of problems are known and the roofer does not alert the HO then he is negligent.
The roofer is the professional and IF this is a foreseable problem then it is his duty to let the HO know about it or to change his proceedures so that it does not happen.
Now if they is not a know problem, but that the delivery man had an "acident" and dropped them on the roof it is still the roofers problem. He is the one that the contracted with the supplier. He, in turn, then could go after the supplier.
NOTE - this is all assuming that there was a direct relationship between the roofing and the breakage which we really don't know.
The only way that the roofer would not be responsible for this would be if the house was in such feeball condition that this was not foreseeable problem AND that the poor condition would not be noticable to a skilled roofer working on the house.
sorry Bill ,but I think you are WAY wrong here.
the plates in question were in no way under the roofers care and controll.
If we were talking about some broken garden statuary---bumped by a ladder---this would be a whole 'nother story.
If we were even talking about damage to plates on the other side of awall during a kitchen renovation---it might be awhole 'nother story.
In this case---the homeowners were in controll of their own possesions----and the claim that "we didn't know there would be so much banging" smells REAL fishy.
there had ALREADY been a complete tear-off & re-sheat-----and the homeowners are trying to claim with a straight face that they didn't think there would be this much BANGING going on ?----C'mon man---that's ludicrous.
BTW----I have NEVER seen a pallet of shingles DROPPED on a house. A dropped pallet would have weighd several thousand pounds and probably fallen into the kitchen. HERE at least ,roof top delivery of shingles involves a conveyor belt---bundle ,by bundle----NOT by the skid.Occasionally,skids are lifted by tow motor to roof level and un loaded by hand-----but EVERYONE involved knows not to point load a skid load of shingles on a residential roof. Danger of collapse.
"there had ALREADY been a complete tear-off & re-sheat-----and the homeowners are trying to claim with a straight face that they didn't think there would be this much BANGING going on ?----C'mon man---that's ludicrous."
Well, I wasn't there, so I'm just relaying this through good ol' mom.
Apparently, both of my parents were around and in the house while they did the complete tear of and resheathing. There was banging, but nothing to warrant any worries about knocking things around inside the house. Then they left for the rest of the day while the roofers did the shingles.
But yea, no one knows what really happened, so maybe that's the best way to end things.
Notice I put ALOT of conditions on my response.
BUT IF this is a predictable problem (note again I am not saying it is, but IF IT IS) even a minor one, then the roofer has the duty to warn the HO.
Say it was one out of every 20 jobs. That would mean that you might have this occure a couple of times a year and then a roofer with say 10 years experience would have run across this many times.
But with roofs have 20-30 or more years of life and with moving most HO might only have one to two roofs done in there whole life times.
So under those conditions the roofer would have the duty to warn them and if they did not they would be responsible.
NOTE AGAIN I DID NOT SAY THAT THIS HAPPENED IN THIS CASE. I DID NOT SAY THAT THIS WAS A FORESEABLE PROBLEM. IN FACT AFAIK IN ALL OF THE ROOFS THAT HAVE BEEN REPLACED IN THE LAST 100 YEARS THIS IS THE FIRST TIME THAT THIS HAS HAPPENED.
But in any business the courts will reconize that the professional will always have a much higher duty to warn the layperson about potential problems.
OK, I went through the contract this morning.
It is stated that they aren't responsible for damaged items inside and that anything valuable that could fall should be taken care of prior to roofing.
Fair enough. They clearly (and rightfully so) have made sure they aren't legally responsible for the items.
Ethically/professionally speaking, I think they could have done a LOT better by going through the contract with my parents and at least verbally saying 'hey, we might bang around a bit, consider putting away any valuables that could fall."
But, well, they didn't. Oh well. Lesson learned and I doubt the contractor (right or wrong) will get any referalls from my folks. ;)
So, in the end
your parents were warned in WRITING
but would like to hold the contractor responsible for the parents' failure to READ or UNDERSTAND the contract they signed
I just guessing here---but I will bet a verbal warning maybe didn't get through either----may have,in fact been generally warned----but that warning is conveniently forgotten now.
and I am also guessing that the parents are being just a little un-reasonable----and the contractor isn't that concerned about getting referalls from unreasonable people.
but I don't blame you---they're your parents and you are naturally trying to see things their way. that does not mean they are excused from exercising common sense.
EVEN with running magnets----
I have from time to time made good on the occasional nail in tire.but no one has ever tried to hold me up over rattling dishes----especially dishes I was never near or ever had access to.
This has now been exposed by the poster as a classic example of a customer looking to blame someone for their own stupidity.
Didn't want to say it at first but I could see it coming.
In my opinion this type of behaviour is no different than stealing. And I'll define that as taking something from the contractor that didn't belong to them. Even if in the end it was only his good name. The posters parents are schmuks, and I'm sure they have raised one of their own for him to come here with the story.
Oh, by the way, how was the roof job? Doesn't matter, we still won't refer him. And now that he destroyed our prescious dishes doing the work that we asked him to do, I bet you probably don't think the roof work was that good either. And, I bet you were able to judge the work without event setting foot on the roof.
I give probably twenty pages of contract related documents on even a small remodel. I will read it to them word for word if I have to. Most decline. They will initial and date every page. If they don't read it, shame on them.
I used to give this info verbally, and that is as worthless as the paper it was written on.
The bottom line is even when warned, your parents either thought they were smarter than the contract and didn't need to take stuff down, or they were just plain lazy. Some people have so much stuff on the walls it would take days to take down. So they leave it up and take their chances.
I have told people to move wobbly grandfather clocks and they poo-pooed it.
I aint paying for it.
Tom
we do alot of pile driving usually in an area of other hotels and office. A typical pile in our area are 90 feet 2ftx2ft concrete pile. so usually the equipment is huge. Nearly every job will we rattle something or knock stuff off the wall. Some of these even go to court. Some people like to claim every crack, plate, faded paint on the rig. The end is always the same. The judge claim, did you think they was going to use a soft hammer, are you stupid enough to leave your stuff on the wall.
Basically if the roofer would of fell throught the ceiling, it would of be covered by insurance due to mishap but a plate that was held by a small nail that you claim was hand down. No chance, they was no other way to roof a house without hammer, and you knew they was up there with hammer so not they fault. a judge will laugh at you.
Shaz/Tommy:
In my line of work, I use contracts all the time, but I make sure that I always sit down with the client and go through everything so that we all know what's going on. Questions still come up during the project, but it's a lot easier to do a friendly 'well, that was in the contract...remember when we went over that?' rather than 'didn't you read the entire contract by yourself?'
Putting things in the fine print of a contract is merely a legal way to cover your ####. It is not the best customer-relation-wise way to do it.
The reality of a vendor/client relationship has less to do with with what's on paper and more to do with how the two get along and exchange information verbally.
I'm not blaming the contractor for anything other than maybe not having the foresight to go over the contract with his clients (and I realize that's not a justifiable legally-based blame). As such, my parents had things damaged and are upset with the contractor (even though they know that they are equally, if not more so to blame). That's just how it is. The contractor lost any word-of-mouth marketing he may have received from my parents. That's all.
Tommy, I see no fault in your logic, but realize the customer rarely will think the way you do.
"Oh, by the way, how was the roof job? Doesn't matter, we still won't refer him."
Exactly. ;o)
"I have told people to move wobbly grandfather clocks and they poo-pooed it."
Well, great! I think that's a great way to handle things. Whether the client poo-poos is it or not, at least you brought it up and put it in their head. Had the contractor simply said 'hey, we'll be banging -- you might want to secure any valuable that could be knocked off of shelves/walls' then, regardless of whether my parents did or did not move the items, they would have been much less likely to get upset at anyone but themselves.
I agree with you about the friendly verbal in addition to contract but I still haven't heard whether you have any thoughts that those valuable plates were securely fastened in the first place. I'm betting you could check the pin hole in the wall as easily as you checked the fine print in the contract.
I know and understand you are trying to defend your folks. That's normal.
But are you starting to feel like you are standing on bannanna peels?.
Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin:
Well, they're hanging on plate hangers. They are screwed into studs, but I'm not an expert on plate holder engineering ;o)
My belief is that this is just a newer home (70's era suburb) and just doesn't have the mass to withstand the normal bump and grinds of putting on a new roof ;o)
"I know and understand you are trying to defend your folks. That's normal. But are you starting to feel like you are standing on bannanna peels?"
Well, I'm defending my parent's reaction, as I think it's a viable and fair consumer reaction. I talked to my mom, and she understands that they aren't legally liable and really has no interested in pursuing it (as she realizes it's just as much her fault), but she's still upset that her plates broke and her new stove is damaged. Nothing in a contract can really fix that feeling.
Small example: I was in blockbuster the other day getting a movie. The clerk gave me a pitch on becoming a 'preferred member (or something like that)' for $10. I'd get a free movie now, plus one free movie per month. I asked the usual questions just to make sure it was all legit and figure, well, I'm paying for a movie anyways, so what's an extra $5 and I get a free movie a month!
Well, after getting home, the wife points out that, in the small(er) print it states that free movies do not include new-releases.
So now I'm pissed. Yes, I'm pissed over a $5 mistake that I made because I did not fully read the contract before paying for it. But, for $5 in profit, BlockBuster lost any faith that I had in them as a business.
So, anyways, I'm not upset with anything the contractor did other than just not communicating the risks with his customers a bit better. Life goes on ;o)
blockbuster got me too, I alway drop movie off at 6am when I leave to go to work. Two months later they send me a letter saying they was late and $8 late fee. They cannot be late at 6am. The manager and I got into it that day, I did not paid. I think blockbuster are crooks. Next thing there will be a rewind fee on DVD's
The contractor lost any word-of-mouth marketing he may have received from my parents. That's all.
Tommy, I see no fault in your logic, but realize the customer rarely will think the way you do.
"Oh, by the way, how was the roof job? Doesn't matter, we still won't refer him."
Exactly. ;o)
Well then, the customer is unreasonable. I don't work for unreasonable people. And I'll pass on their friends too.
All my print is the same size, there is no fine print. But you should definately learn to start reading it. You weren't born yesterday, but there's still hope for tomorrow.
You have to be a liberal.
Would you seriously want all of us contractors to start allowing for bonehead situations like this in our overhead? Ultimately you'll pay for it.
Add your whining to the post about finding contractors.
Interesting topic though. I do need to add for this contingency in my pricing. I have never actually priced in a line item for this type of thing, but its time.Tom
Some customers are never happy till they beat you outta your last profit dollar , then some. Don't give him a referral. So what. The man did nothing wrong and you still aint't happy cause you couldn't shake him down. Do you really think he needs a referal that goes "and hey he coughed up cash for an old plate that fell off the wall". Gee maybe I'll hire him, break a molson and bud bottle on the floor and claim it was a tiffany light.
I was replacing some cedar siding and told the HO to move everything off the interior walls. I knew she had a billion nick naks just inside. Well I waited an hour and her fat butt was taxing the sun for a tan while she watched my every move from a lounge chair. Well I started to hammer and a loud expensive crash resulted. Holding as straight a face as I could I said " you did clear the wall didn't you?"
She forgot and was pissed I didn't remind her.
Why is it no one want's to take responsibility anymore? Hey I expect my coffee to be hot in the morning I don't need a warning label on the lid. But that's just me.
________________________________________________________________If you were arrested for being a quality builder would there be enough evidence to convict you?
Tommy/Geob:
You two seem awfully defensive.
I'm not about to take this guy to court. My parents aren't either. They said 'hey, our plates got broken and you damaged my stove'. The contractor said 'sorry, but tough.'
My parents know they are SOL and that clearly they should have read the contract in detail on their own and thought that maybe they should have secured all valuables. But they're still pissed. That doesn't make them unreasonable. That makes them human.
I think a simple verbal heads up may have made things turn out a little differently.
You disagree.
That's OK.
In my line of work, I've learned that the customer is always right. If, for an instant, I think they are wrong, I think twice, and have to come to the conclusion that I failed to convince them otherwise during the process. Yes, you still loose a few, but I've learned long ago to stop blaming customers for bad experiences.
But, that's just me. And I've been known to be wrong. ;o)
The customer is always right? All the time? Does your company make money or do they spend all ther time doing what the customer thinks should be done or do they do what is considered normal & acceptable practices?
Most smart business strategy contains the customer is always right routine - but the catch is they promote that mostly to the customer and the frontline people that that have the direct face to face or phone to phone contact with the consumer. The reality is there is no way you can run a succesful busineess without drawing the line somewhere. Once the word gets out about being able to put one over on a business - be it a small one man contractor to a huge national company people will take advantage of it.
That " come to the conclusion that I have failed to convince them otherwise and stop blaming the customer for bad experiences " is corporate brainwashing - there is a cure - we can help you with this sickness. You need to work in a business where you are responsible for your medical,soc. sec.,retirement, vacation, holiday, and a list of other bills and you get to find the work yourself. Then you get to collect the money from the customer who decides your making to much $ and they don't want to pay for whatever reason they decide or maybe they wnt something for nothing. Then tell us "the customer is always right & stop blaming the customer for bad experiences" while you sweat out your mortgage.
"The customer is always right" is a guiding philosophy, it is not meant to be taken literally.
My take on this is that it is a shame that a job that otherwise went well has left both sides with a bad feeling. I can't see that it would have hurt for the roofer to have reminded the customer verbally that there would be some vibration that might affect their possessions. I agree that the roofer was not legally obliged to do this but customer satisfaction is a fragile thing, and a few extra words could have preserved it
John
"That " come to the conclusion that I have failed to convince them otherwise and stop blaming the customer for bad experiences " is corporate brainwashing - there is a cure - we can help you with this sickness. You need to work in a business where you are responsible for your medical,soc. sec.,retirement, vacation, holiday, and a list of other bills and you get to find the work yourself."
Understood. That's just how I do things. It's not for everyone.
It's not that the client is always right. In reality, they are wrong quite often. If they are wrong, then I can do one of two things. I can decide that they are a PITA and blame them--typically burning the bridge behind them, or I can decide that I just didn't communicate everything with them fully. The latter way makes it a lot easier to let the occasional client go with much less animosity. And taking that *attitude* that the client is always right, regardless if they are or aren't, is just some PR insurance, IMHO. That doesn't mean you have to get screwed by the client, of course. I simply find that being a bit more proactive in my communications with the client, the getting-screwed factor is reduced quite a bit.
This also helps me better filter the new clients too. Over time, you realize which clients you are simply not going to be able to communicate with much sooner in the process.
All IMHO, of course.
"customer satisfaction is a fragile thing, and a few extra words could have preserved it"
Actually, John, you said that much better than I could have. I'm also the first to acknowlege that I'm not the best point of contact with the client all the time. I've met some amazingly talented account managers that manage to always convince the client that they are right regardless of what we are actually delivering. It's an amazing talent in my book. ;o)
"He has illuminated yet another level of possible stupidity and unreasonableness by the american consumer that I didn't even consider existing."
That's my point. I try REALLY REALLY hard to stay away from patronizing statements like that. You may be right, you may be wrong. I simply prefer to err on the side (the side the public sees) that I (the business owner) am in the wrong and do what I can to convince the client that I can right it.
There's a few of you that are INCREDIBLY defensive over a few of my comments in here.
Please re-read everything I've said. Note that my very first post mentioned "is that normal, or do roofers typically carry some sort of insurance for this type of thing?"
I said nothing about suing. Nothing about harrassing. Nothing about thinking the roofer was a total azz (does that get by the naughty-word-police? ;o) Just a question asking if this was normal and if they carry insurance. The only 'backlash' my parents are giving is the fact that they, themselves, in their own home, are upset and probably won't be going out of their way to recommend this roofer in the future. That's a fair reaction in my book. I hate blockbuster now even though I probably only dealt with one less-than-great minimum wage worker. Still, that point of contact defines my entire relationship with the country. One minor mistep means a LOT more in the eyes of the consumer than several past good steps.
Those that are getting defensive give me the impression that you run your business with the attitude that the client *is* always wrong and that you are *never* responsible for anything outside the job at hand. You are all in business, so that's obviously a valid way to run a business. I'm sure it's a sane way to do things and keeps your client list fairly culled down to the ideal clients. It's just not how I'd run it. To each their own. (and I realize it's next to impossible to guage a person via a discussion forum, so I'm not out to judge anyone...just offering a different POV.)
Whadya think for the bubble fee?
Flat charge amount or percentage?
Say about 2%?
I did add 5% once for a contract where I didn't want it and anticipated things like this. Ended up earning it too. I had hoped the excessive charges would drive them away but NOoooooooooooo! .
Excellence is its own reward!
Piff,
2%?
Seems a little lite.
What, a 10k roof job, $500 for the plates, plus aggravation,
15%.
Maybe we can learn something from the homeowners.Tom
Way I thought you were talking is to add aasa standard fee on every contract.
If you only get hit once in ten, you are climbing 15% after the plates cost.
Maybe that 5% is pretty reasonable though, now that I think of it. Shucks, my deductable is a grand anyways. seven percent. yeah that's it. Maybe a little for the ulcer too. Nine percent sounds - well, who ever heard of nine percent on anything? Waitresses get fifteen.
I don't want to make banker jealous though. I'll settle for another ten percent. Ain't I reasonable?
Darrel and the insurance industry can both teach us something. We're normally cautght in the middle
Darrel, see what can happen when you don't read the contract and take responsibility for your own stuff? Get every homeowner thinking like your parents and the costs of the product go through the roof - if you don't mind a pun here..
Excellence is its own reward!
yo, Tommy!
I am confused here. It seems you are a conservative----but I am a liberal.
how can we be in complete agreement here.
could it be because we are RIGHT?---LOL
you know whats really funny here? the roofer had the foresight to GET IT IN WRITING. the parents here are complaining that they were not also verbally warned ( although if the truth were told, they probably also recieved some verbal warnings that were ALSO ignored).
If the roofer had simply given a verbal warning without GETTING IT IN WRITING, you just KNOW these people would be trying to hold the roofers feet to the flames.
but I do want to thank Darrel. Really. In all sincerity.
He has illuminated yet another level of possible stupidity and unreasonableness by the american consumer that I didn't even consider existing.
GUESS WHAT'S GOING IN MY CONTRACT. ASAP
There are a lot of good conservatives out there who for whatever reason can't admit it to themselves yet.
When it comes to business its best to be conservative, unless you are allowing for a liberal amount of profit for yourself in every job.
I like darrel throwing in about how its "human nature" for his parents to think this way. When you have to say that its usually not one of the qualities of human nature that are admirable.
Nevertheless, I finally thought of a tagline for myself.
I'm here to help the humans.Tom
"When it comes to business its best to be conservative, unless you are allowing for a liberal amount of profit for yourself in every job."
Excellent point!
"When you have to say that its usually not one of the qualities of human nature that are admirable."
Agreed. But whether a trait of human nature is admirable or not, it's something we all need to deal with in business. Remember that the consumer sees a lot of traits of 'business nature' that aren't that admirable. ;o)
Darrel,
I curious as to what line of work your in. You mentioned some parallels to your work, but you never said what it was.
I'm always a little curious when someone thinks there business is like our business. Cause there aint nothing like being a general contractor.
Whether or not you think contractors are professionals, it most resembles single owner professional type proprietorships, partnerships or corps. But with a zillion more ways to be held responsible emotionally, if not legally for things that are beyond your control. Add to that the fact that all the other professions, with the possible exception of medicine, are intregral to the business, and even though you may outsource them, you had better have enough understanding that you could practice them yourself.
The same concept applies to all the subtrades under your direction as a GC, and you are responsible for all the the same things with regard to the tasks that they perform on your behalf.
I try to instill in every customer that the act of working on their home is a team effort, a partnership. I cannot conceive of all of the problems that can arise, but I narrow the list as best as I can. I also instill the fact that I work for them and them only, and will work tirelessly as their advocate and advisor. We will both make mistakes along the way, but if at any time the customer does not believe this is the case, then I will cheerfully go on my way. I will not (generally can't) leave them hanging until all of their expectations are met. But if the trust is broken by either side it will make for a miserable experience.
So ultimately, I have learned that no, the customer is not always right. I have been the victim of countless deceptions on the part of the homeowner, because as you say its "human nature". And believe me, as a contractor, you better be a student of the science of human nature.
Lets make a list of the major components of human nature and place them in order of prominence:
Human Nature
1. I am the most important person in this world.
2. I like to get something for nothing whenever possible, regardless of who ultimately pays for it.
3. When I make a mistake, or incur a debt that I wasn't planning on, I will try to the best of my ability to make sure I am not held accountable for it, regardless of who I try to place the responsibilty upon.
I'll skip a few and go somewhere near the bottom of the list.
812. If I had a heart, and looked deep inside, I might take responibility for my actions provided it doesn't inconvenience me too much. (See component 1.)
Really I'm not that jaded.
Tom
I'm here to help the humans.
Tom:
I have all the respect in the world for a GC. Especially those, like you, that partake in these forums.
I'm in graphic design. My contracts/relationships with clients are most likely a lot less worrisome than that of a GC. Still, things can and do go wrong. Schedules go awry due to client's inability to deliver goods. Subcontractors make mistakes (I need to work with photographers, writers, programers, etc, just as a GC works with the trades). Printers/ISPs screw things up. I screw things up. Contracts aren't read. Etc. So there are similarities in terms of business methods.
My customer service attitude is one that I just happen to have, and one that influences the kind of companies I give my money too. That's all. I see an overall trend these days to cut corners in customer service. Yet, these companies are still making money, so what I can I say? (And I am in no way implying anyone in here is doing that...I'm talking about the Blockbusters of the world...)
"I try to instill in every customer that the act of working on their home is a team effort, a partnership. I cannot conceive of all of the problems that can arise, but I narrow the list as best as I can. "
With that said, I think we're a lot more in agreement than disagreement. ;o)
DArrel,
Patronizing? C'mon get real.
You have helpfully identified a very real threat to my business and my families livelihood that I hadn't even been appreciating and I have annouced my intention to correct that little oversight----If that's patronizing then I guess I am.
BTW I honestly don't think ANYONE here was defensive with the possible,just possible ,exception of you. I think the correct term would have been incredulous. the experienced contractors were incredulous that your parents would try to stickthe roofers insurance policy for their own oversite.
since your parents contractually admidted the roofer was not reponsible---why did they not contact their OWN agent about their homeowners policy instead of trying to stick it on the roofers policy. Remember---they already admidted it wasn't his liability---so why on earth would it go on his policy?
Like I said, Shazlett, to each their own.
If you are going to hold a roofer responsible for every item within a house the coists of roofing are likely to double.
Add to that, the fact that every roofer will require a three hundred point inspoection of the house and interior access to his crew foreman while on the job so he can control the placement of those items.
While I;m sure the vibrations of nailing contributed to the demise of the plates, I'm equally sure that the plates were not hung as carefully as they could or should have been. Probably one of those tiny little wire brads about 3/4" long pinning a little brass hook that is stuck into the sheet rock without hitting a stud and is appropriate for holding some cardboard art from Walmart is all..
Excellence is its own reward!
Well versed response.
A few years ago I was sanding floors in a house. The vibration from the machines upset some knick-knacks in a case on the opposite side of the wall. I think 4 or 5 porcilan pieces broke.
I felt bad and agreed to take the cost of replacing them off the bill....until the owners disclosed their replacement cost: $1200.00. Seems these were numbered LLadro (sp?) pieces which were very expensive.
I backed off my offer. They refused to pay. We went to the magistrate.
Split.
Ditch