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Discussion Forum

Roofing dilemma

| Posted in General Discussion on August 5, 2005 12:45pm

I was planning on putting on a cedar roof (24″, 1/2″ think shakes), but was talked out of it by my father, who talked to a carpenter who swore that they always leak and when they do, you can’t figure out where. I get the last part, but I really would prefer wood. My wife has ruled out the easy ribbed metal roof, which leaves the harder Everseam standing seam roof at 210 a square, or asphalt. We’re building a cape in an apple orchard. There is a lot of roof (2500 sqare feet) and a fair amount of living space under it. Everything is cooler (in all senses of the word) than asphalt.

Two questions:

1) The Everseam people told me that the standing seam requires a bender, which I can buy or rent, to bend the metal over the drip edge, as well as some cutting for width. It does not require that the seams be rolled tight. This doesn’t sound too bad for me to do myself. Is it?

2) Does cedar really leak if you follow the overlap guidelines and interweave the felt the way you’re supposed to?

Thanks again for the advice.

Weaf

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Replies

  1. User avater
    Sphere | Aug 05, 2005 01:08am | #1

    Installed properly, cedar won't leak. Until it fails.  Best guess is 20 yrs.

    See "copper roof in progress" thread for a standing seam look see.

    If you have never done it, don't start now. It requires a whole new mind set and tools.

    As far as cedar goes, the felt is NOT gonna make up for defects in the actual install.  And , can lead to more headaches than you envision as far as trapped water...cedar needs to breathe , skip the felt and apply it to skip sheathing ( 1x4's on 7.5" centers) and let it do its job.

    http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=60932.1

    here  

      Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks



    Edited 8/4/2005 6:09 pm ET by SPHERAMID

    1. User avater
      coonass | Aug 05, 2005 02:15am | #3

      SPHERAMID,Felt is applied above the reveal on skip sheathing to prevent wind from blowing water and trash past the shakes. Not good to skip.
      Read here.
      http://www.cedarbureau.org/installation/roof_manual/page04.htm#Pic.KK

      1. User avater
        Sphere | Aug 05, 2005 02:20am | #4

        Yeah, and 200 yrs ago they used white oak splits, never a lick of felt. I just replaced one. 

        Just because a manufacturer wants a safty net, don't mean the old way don't work just fine.

          Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

          edit, Here is an example of new work with oak next post I guess.

        Edited 8/4/2005 7:25 pm ET by SPHERAMID

        1. User avater
          Sphere | Aug 05, 2005 02:27am | #5

          Specced by histerical archy's  Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

        2. Piffin | Aug 05, 2005 03:10am | #10

          you think tarpaper was an option two hundred years ago? 

           

          Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

    2. Piffin | Aug 05, 2005 03:01am | #7

      Wrond advice onm the felt paper. When installing shakes, the interweave is an absolute necessity. You refer to it as making up for poor installation, but it is part of a correct installation with shakes. i think you confuse the shakes with cedar shingles, a common error, especially in the east, where shakes are less common. 

       

      Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

      1. User avater
        Sphere | Aug 05, 2005 03:18am | #12

        P, I have done that job as an installer to what was caller for by the arch. Not my call. AFAIK, no leaks...it was OAK. Hand split ( well, I KNOW he used a log splitter) mostly white oak...775.00 a SQ. for the stock, and I had 50% or more in wasted splits.

        It still went down as watertite...no leaks

        I subbed a job from Cu that was cedar, sawn backs and split face, 24's with 7.5 showing, added felt 'tween courses @ 15".

        I bet the oak lasts 20 yrs longer than that cedar.  Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

        1. Piffin | Aug 05, 2005 03:46am | #14

          If it was white oak, you win the bet, but because of material choice, not method. 

           

          Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          1. User avater
            Sphere | Aug 05, 2005 04:02am | #16

            Fer sure, the ramifications and situations control the outcome of any install.

            I like the diffacullt methods obviously, cuz that is what I do best.  Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

          2. Piffin | Aug 05, 2005 04:29am | #17

            I like the best methodss sop I don't have to be difficult;) 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          3. User avater
            Sphere | Aug 05, 2005 04:46am | #18

            When I get older I will too. (G)  Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

          4. User avater
            RichBeckman | Aug 05, 2005 06:08am | #19

            You two should stop being so difficult.Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.

          5. User avater
            Sphere | Aug 05, 2005 06:12am | #20

            You bringing te axe to CAls? again?

            I'm ridin / w Cu. I'll drag op the Ovation 12 st..but I only know C d an g chords...lol

            I hear some john prine mebbe?  Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

          6. User avater
            RichBeckman | Aug 05, 2005 05:10pm | #22

            "You bringing te axe to CAls?"Yup."again?"Now you sound like you don't want me to!! LOL!"I'll drag op the Ovation 12 st."Great!"I hear some john prine mebbe?"I know two Prine songs, Spanish Pipe Dream and Christmas In Prison.I only know Christmas In Prison because you posted the lyrics/chords awhile back.If you have the chords to any Prine you want to hear, email them to me: [email protected]. I have four Prine CDs so there's a pretty good chance I'll be familier with the songIt is nearly impossible for me to figure out the chords to a song by listening to it. I've done it a couple of times, but mostly by dumb luck I'm thinking.Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.

          7. User avater
            Sphere | Aug 05, 2005 11:53pm | #23

            Almost EVERY Prine song is only three chords. G,C and D.  He ain't what ya call polished. LOL.

            I'll see what I can muster up from Sweet revenge or Jesus , the missing yrs.

            I have not been playing at all , for too long now..I better start warming up.  Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

  2. mike4244 | Aug 05, 2005 01:40am | #2

    The only cedar shake or shingle roofs I have seen that leaked were 35 years old at least. Even then, proper maintance every ten years or so and those roofs would last longer.Go ahead and install the roof using proper techniques.

    mike

    1. Piffin | Aug 05, 2005 03:07am | #9

      I agree - I have reroofed cedar roofs at least fourty years old. i have also repalced cedar roofs seven years old that were poorly done. 

       

      Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

      1. User avater
        G80104 | Aug 05, 2005 03:11am | #11

        Could I have some fries with that Shake?

  3. Piffin | Aug 05, 2005 02:59am | #6

    I sounds like you were talked out of cedar by a "carpenter".

    but the right person to install a roof is called a "roofer"

    See the difference?

     

     

    Welcome to the
    Taunton University of
    Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
     where ...
    Excellence is its own reward!

  4. User avater
    Joe | Aug 05, 2005 03:03am | #8

    I don't like wood for roofs because it can burn.   Just a couple of hot ashes from your chimney or a neighbors house fire and poof, your house is gone.

    Just my 2 cents.

  5. thumper | Aug 05, 2005 03:35am | #13

    Skip the felt. It traps water and the life of the shakes is extremely shortened.

    3' to 6' ice and water shield at eaves,depending on overhang length.

    Dry the deck in starting at the eave(over the ice and water shield) with synthetic underlayment.

    2x2 skip sheathing or "Cedar Breather" over deck.

     Install shakes 10" to weather(use 1x6 tacked in as guide to lay shakes on).

     In addition use stainless steel fasteners only!!!!! 7/16"x2" staples.

    One of the bigest failures on cedar roofs is bleeding and rusting fasteners-even coated siding nails.

    Copper strips 8" wide laced in the rows depending on run(eaves to ridge). This cleans the shakes and is not harmfull to the plantings below.

    1. Piffin | Aug 05, 2005 03:53am | #15

      You are arguing with yourself in contradictory advice. The I&W will do more of the "trapped water" knind of damage than th efelt will, if the felt is properly laid in. The purpose of the I%W is to overcome failings of venting and insulation.Properly weaved felt will never "trap water". it's purpose is to kick wind driven water back out on top. 

       

      Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

      1. thumper | Aug 05, 2005 02:34pm | #21

        I may not have explained the proccess well enough. The ice and water shield is code on all roofs. It must be ion place to satisfy the inspectors(2' past wall plate on a horizontal plane).

        This is placed directly on the sheathing only to satisfy the Code.

        The roofing system is then placed on top of the completely dried in roof deck.

        The problem we face with shakes today is that we are using a traditional roof product  in a highly regulated modern "codified" process.

        Wood needs to breath. FHB had quite a detailed article on the installation of cedar siding that was basically the same as I am proposing,but on a vertical plane.

        I may not have as much experience as you all (only 20 years of roofing in the mid west). But I have removed (then replaced) many shake roofs that were installed with interlaced felt as per instructions that lasted only 15-20 years max.

        JM2Cs

        1. MikeSmith | Aug 06, 2005 12:58am | #24

          thumper...lemme guess... the ones with the premature failure were not on skip sheathing.... and they were not on cedar breather..

          in other words , it is not the interleaved felt that is causing the failure to dry ... it is the lack of ability to dry to the back side..

           the interleaved felt does not stop it from drying to the back side.... as a matter of fact it will wick the moisture in both directions  down and out..

           and  up and back... it will facilitate the drying cycle between rain storms

          even the cedarbureau gets it wrong... they STILL say you can apply roof shingles on felt directly to plywood decks.. i made that mistake ONCE.. never again

          if it's shakes , we interleave the felts..

           if it's shingles we use cedar breather.. since skip sheathing will not pass our wind uplift requirements

          but hey, whadda i no ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

          1. seeyou | Aug 06, 2005 02:29am | #25

            even the cedarbureau gets it wrong... they STILL say you can apply roof shingles on felt directly to plywood decks..

            I find that similar to the tobacco industry's hard line that there's no real proof smoking causes cancer.

            More cedar gets sold that way.

            Actually, IIRC, certain areas don't allow split sheathing (earthquake country for example). I may be wrong about that. Birth, school, work, death.....................

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