A neighbor is getting a new roof (a complete tear-off). The roofers are installing 15 lb. felt (tar paper) from the ridge to the gutters, not horizontally as the books (and at least one manufacturer of asphalt shingles) describe. The roof is a simple gable – no dormers, no valleys, one chiminey at the end.
Is there anything really wrong with this installation? (Besides the fact that these guys did a minimum overlap.) If the paper were overlapped say, 6″, would any water find its way to the sheathing?
I said nothing. I am considering calling the building comissioner (who happens to be a pretty good guy) and ask him what he requires. What would you do?
Replies
yes there is something very wrong with that.
The felt serves to protect the sheathing and keep the insides mostly dry until the actual roofing is installed.
After that it serves as a back up to the shingles to help shed any water that finds it's way under a shingle.
Starting from the bottom working up, gives the water a path, and in theory there is no place for the water to get beneath the felt, because the water would take a down hill path constantly running past the overlaps.
If you run the felt vertically it will not shed water properly, the water will still run down hill but, it will find a very easy way underneath the vertical overlaps and come in contact with the sheathing, and quite likely find a hole or gap in the sheathing and start damaging the inside.
If it rains anytime soon before the final roofing is applied your neighbor is in trouble.
Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professionals build the Titanic.
Edited 6/10/2003 9:29:38 PM ET by CAG
Edited 6/10/2003 9:41:27 PM ET by CAG
One more thing,
Most quality roofers will not leave a house exposed to the elements if the inside is finished, they will tear off and replace in one day. If for some reason the entire roof can not be re-roofed in one day they only tear off the portion they expect to finish in that day, at least around here.Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professionals build the Titanic.
this has been discussed at least once before here...
think the conclusion was....even though it's weird......it's really not gonna affect much.
not exactly the best way to go.....but......
and as far as leaving the house open...
did it rain? if not...who cares? Maybe the roofers have the ability to watch and understead the weather channel........
people that know too much about their neighbors remodeling projects worry me.....
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
We don't have building kommisars here. Maybe from the land of socialist thinkers. Under socialism, what's yours is mine. That would justify....
Excellence is its own reward!
ok, any of you ever going to run your felt vertically??Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professionals build the Titanic.
Pierre,
Maybe I'm misunderstanding your description, in which case CAG is right, but I believe that you are saying the felt is ran 90° to the typical orientation. I don't think there's anything wrong with this method. A bit odd, maybe, but probably not detrimental. As CAG said, the felt is not a permanent barrier. They should get shingles on ASAP. Why are you so concerned with your neighbors job? If you have concern for his welfare, why don't you mention it to him. Why involve those who do not need to be involved? While I'm at it, why are you taking it upon yourself to police the building practices in the neighborhood? I might be coming on to strongly, but if you have to ask how tar paper should be run, I think you might be unqualified for the building practice ombudsman position.
Jon Blakemore
Jon,
I generally do not say anything about other trades (I'm an electrician and have been licensed since '76) unless asked. However, if someone is doing roofing it tends to be out in the open for all to see. I give a damn about the housing stock in this neighborhood. What my neighbors do (construction wise), affects everyone on this street, particularly after the present owner moves on sticking the buyer (who will not have any way of knowing what was done)with a substandard installation. If this roof leaks later, it will be v. expensive to repair - now it is a simple matter to rip off the tar paper and correct the problem.
I know the theory of tar paper. While roofing is not my trade, I have done my share of repairs on my own houses, and have done my best to become as knowledgeable about the systems I touch as possible. I do this by talking to friends in other trades and reading. Having said that, I recognize that theory and practice are often at odds. The consensus in this situation is that there will probably be no problem, especially if a generous overlap was provided. How about the less than 2" overlap that these bozos did? Sounds like a problem waiting for a Challenger.
Remember Ken Kern? Did he not advocate the owner built home? Did he not die in his own hand built house? Would he have wanted someone to point out to him any mistakes he made? I sure would (and do).
I don't know what I will do in the morning. Sunup will see....
You are right. About the felt being run the wrong way, I mean. As far as whether or not you should be kibbitzing, that's between you and your neighbor, and between him and the roofing contractor. Keep the building commisioner out of it, even if he is your bosom pal.
As to the way to lay the felt, I do it this way: the run is from rake to rake, continuous strips. We lay full double-thickness coverage, which means the eaves strip is backed by a half-width strip, and all succeeding strips are overlapped half-way down the previous strip. All downroof edges and both rake ends of the felt are pitched down full length--I apply pitch from cartridges using an air-powered caulking gun, running a thick bead under all the edges and then mashing the upper strip of felt into it. The ridge is capped with a full strip centered on the ridge line and pitched down on both sides. All drip edges are pitched underneath full length before being stapled in place, before the felt is laid, of course. The felt is trimmed flush with the outside edge of the drip-edge.
On low-slope roofs, we either use self-adhesive ice and snow membrane, or we paint the entire back of each strip of felt with tar before laying it (haven't had to do that in a few years, thank god!) for the first 3 to 6 feet up the roof, depending on the width of the eaves and the slope.
I have never seen anybody lay felt vertically, not around here, anyway. Maybe it's because we have such severe weather conditions to deal with.
Whatever. If you decide to talk to your neighbor in the morning, try to do it when the contractor's not looking over your shoulder. That way you leave it up to your neighbor to decide what to do about it. And it's his house--and his responsibility--after all.
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
I think it was installed wrong as there are sometimes small areas where the roof sheathing is not totally flat and a small wind borne leak will go sideways.
bet they used too short nails too on the shingles.
many of the ones on my moms house back out - only about 1 inch long.
It seems that the one question that has not been answered is what is the pitch of the roof.Have you ever tried to apply felt on 12/12 or 16/12 pitch.I really think that the safety of the guy doing the job sometimes dictates the installtion procedure
The pitch here is 12/12 or pretty close to it. Yes, it is steep, but I have seen guys installing felt horizontally using battens and roof jacks on steeper roofs. These guys used a long aluminum ladder hooked over the ridge and unrolled the felt from top down.
pierre... this is NOT a problem.. it is non-standard and would be better done in the conventional manner.. but it is NOT going to cause the roof to leak once the shingles are on..
they should get credit for using felt.. a lot of bozo's don't.. even so..
the nail holes in the felt will cause more leaks if the shingles leak than the side laps will..
i'd be more concerned that they used a starting course of ice & water..
but in reality.... they really , really, have to screw up big time for a 12/12 pitch to leakMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
ok I stand corrected
Do you ever run your felt vertical?Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professionals build the Titanic.
no.... but given the right circumstances i would..
anyways.. we use the new topguard types now...10 sq. rolls.. 5' x 200'
with roofing tins... you can leave it exposed for 6 months... think of the jobs you could spike in 6 months...hah, hah, hahMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Ok,
admittedly I am not a roofer by any stretch, don't like roofing, probably never will.
I've never seen a felt rolled vertically before, haven't seen nearly as many roofs as maybe you and others, but seen a fair number.
We're not very technologically advanced here in Lawrence KS so it takes a while to get "new" products, and even longer before they start being used. Last month was the first time I saw one of the new adhesive backed products going up, and that was on a commercial building haven't seen it yet on residential.
Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professionals build the Titanic.
If you lived in my neighborhood you would have a lot to do.
That's the way I would do it on a 12/12, albeit with a 4 or 6" lap.
It's safer to do that way and you can stretch the felt tighter so there are fewer wrinkles. It goes on faster so there is less chance of rain getting inside from a passing storm while work is ongoing. And in some circumstances, it is less likely to blow off in wind. Sounds to me like these guys know their business better than you do...
Excellence is its own reward!
12/12!
Well there ya go.
Perfectly fine......that's how I'd do it too...
Then again..I avoid 12/12 roofs......and I'd bet my roofer would run it up and down....
Here's the million dollar Q now.......and I think I know the answer....
Who the hell do ya know what the overlap is?
Is this roof like 3 or 4 foot off the ground? Or are your binoc's really powerful?
My guess.....U don't know! Ya wanted this to be wrong so yer convinced they shorted the lap and used short chinese nails.
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
If I remember correctly The house Ken Kern was sleeping in at the time of the accident was experimental and still in the process of construction with abnormal rains involved.
As one appreciative of the man's writings I just wanted to clarify that point lest someone form a negative image of the deceased as a bozo builder who didn't know what he was doing.
Is there anything really wrong with this installation? (Besides the fact that these guys did a minimum overlap.) If the paper were overlapped say, 6", would any water find its way to the sheathing?
I said nothing. I am considering calling the building comissioner (who happens to be a pretty good guy) and ask him what he requires. What would you do?
While I'm at it, why are you taking it upon yourself to police the building practices in the neighborhood? I might be coming on to strongly, but if you have to ask how tar paper should be run, I think you might be unqualified for the building practice ombudsman position.
Jon,
This is a forum of learning. Lighten up. The guy simply said he was going to ask the building inspector for the code requirement. He didn't say he was going to rat the guy out. There are no dumb questions here.
carpenter in transition
A lot depends on the pitch. How steep is it?
Genericly speaking, you need a two inch lap on horzontal seams and a six inch lap on vertical seams, so it is kind of OK if it has a six inch lap.
But as CAG points out, should water ever back up or blown in under shingles, once it is there, it is more likely to run horizontally back and forth before it finds a way to the eave and the ground. On a low slope roof, there is more horizontal maze traveling.
if the pitch is greater than 6/12 or so, I wouldn't worry about it, but even at 4/12, it is really not your place to stick your nose in. Maybe mention it to the neighbor and butt out again.
Excellence is its own reward!