I’m looking at shingles. 30yr, 40yr, lifetime. I assume none will last as long as the warranty. I’m assuming the warranty isn’t ever worth bothering with, even if you do have problems. So are the longer warranty/heavier shingles with it?
It’s hard to find any good tests or source material, so any practical experience would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.
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Replies
Yes ... I have, and use, Grand Manor Shangle. Great product, a little harder to install than most, very heavy and very good looking. Can carry off a 'slate look' better than most, especially on roofs < 8:12 or so (steeper shows more of the clipped corners which don't resemble slate).
I also like and use Certainteed Landmark TL (Tri-Laminate) - especially in the woodsier range to resemble (a little) wood shingles.
Jeff
Fred,
Welcome to Breaktime.
The more information you provide, the better the answers you'll receive. Area of the country, roof pitch, what's currently on the roof, any common climatic problems, like that.
Start by filling in your profile and give us some idea of your experience in the trades, if any. Then add the other things mentioned.
Peter
I don't understand the assumption that they wil not last as long as the warrantee.
Granted, I have seen 20 year FG shingles fail in ten years.
But I have seen far more ofthen that 15-20 year shingles last thirty or more
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the material cost increase from 30 to 50 is slight, the labor is pretty much the samedepending on your long range plans.... the Lifetime weights are usually worth the increase
if we had them available in '85, i wouldn't be planning on reroofing our house everso.... if this is your retirement house, and you're say, 50 years old, i'd go for the TL i always recommend the 50 over the the 30Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
arond here when you mention 50 yr the roofers just moan about how high they are ,shouldn't use them just go with the 30's,they won't even give a bid for 50's. are they that much higher or are they harder to lay? maybe they are to good and the roofers don't want to be put out of bussiness! larryif a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
arond here when you mention 50 yr the roofers just moan about how high they are ,
About anything but 30 year and 3 tab shingles are special order here. If I sell a 50 year shingle job, it's a 2-3 week wait for the product and there's no returns. So, if I don't hit my take-off perfectly, I have to wait 2-3 weeks again for that one bundle that I was short by or I'm stuck with that 3 squares I was over.
They're not much harder to lay other than they resist being cut a little more and there's more bundles per square to get to the roof.http://grantlogan.net/
But you all knew that. I detailed it extensively in my blog.
seeyou
About anything but 30 year and 3 tab shingles are special order here. If I sell a 50 year shingle job, it's a 2-3 week wait for the product and there's no returns. So, if I don't hit my take-off perfectly, I have to wait 2-3 weeks again for that one bundle that I was short by or I'm stuck with that 3 squares I was over.
I hear you.
Rich
Don't you have a regional suppliers of material?
I found the local supply houses are like that, but hte regional generally have some in stock in one of their warehouses.
One of my suppliers is national (ABC Supply) and the other 4 are regional. They all carry a couple of colors (black & weathered wood) in 40's.
I don't have a problem selling and installing 40's and 50's, but I dissagree with the statements that some others have made concerning the differences in costs vs. 30's. They do cost me considerably more. Are they worth it? Probably. They haven't been making them as long as they are warranted. I like Grand Manors a lot and have sold and installed a lot of them. Will they still look good in 50 years? Probably not. Will they still be turning water in 50 years? Probably.http://grantlogan.net/
But you all knew that. I detailed it extensively in my blog.
My last house I rippedof the roof that was original to house, built in eary 50's. 35+ years.
I have never found the shingles that cheap either.
Expensive, worth it, probably. Don't know for sure because the lifetime roofs are fairly new.
I know when I was taught roofing the heavier the shingle the better.
Of course those were not fibreglass.
I agree with your points.I can't remember exactly what our pricing is on Grand Manor's (I'm not on my office computer) and the like, but I seem to remember it's a good 50% upcharge over Tamko AR 30 year shingles.Our roofer also charges a premium for the 40 year shingles and a larger premium for the 50 years. I don't how much longer it takes him but that's what he charges.We typically install the Tamko 30 shingles. Maybe they will be needing to be replaced in 25 years, but that's pretty decent for a roof. Between remodeling, color changes, algae issues, storm damage, flashing wear, and other issues I think planned obsolescence is not a bad thing.Also, with the advances in shingle technology, I wonder if there is some benefit in not "locking" yourself in to a 50 year "investment" roof.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I wonder if there is some benefit in not "locking" yourself in to a 50 year "investment" roof.
And if many are like DW, the color choice may not suit them 10 years from now much less 50. She asked me the other day how much longer our 6YO roof will last - thinking color change.
I just bid a Grand Manor job. It's a large roof and it takes a full semi load so I got a "drop-ship" price break. $157/sq plus the ridge caps are nearly $4/lin ft. I often use copper ridge roll with them. About the same price.http://grantlogan.net/
But you all knew that. I detailed it extensively in my blog.
ya, but - I did my barn 30 years ago (T-locks), and 50 year shingles would look real good right now (if they actually lasted 50 years) - what goes faster than time?"there's enough for everyone"
I just looked at my roofers price list.25 year and 30 year: $50Slateline, Hatteras, 50 year Tamko: $75Grand Manors, Carriage house: $160So we could pay 50% more for 50 year shingles to get 67% more life (30to 50). Maybe it's worth it, but it's certainly not a no-brainer in my mind.The lifetime shingles are only worth it if that's what you really want.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
but jon, those are not installed prices to the customer
to the customer, the final differences are much closer
AND Grand Mannor, Carriage House... those are in a whole different leagueMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
You're correct that those numbers are not the customers cost.
However, using your numbers, the cost increase for materials from 30 years to 50 is just about 67%, which happens to be the same amount the "lifetime" is supposed to be increased.
I'm glad I didn't purchase a "lifetime" water heater 30 years ago (as unlikely as that would be for me) because of the efficiency upgrades we've seen since then. The same goes for HVAC units, appliances, siding, etc. While I don't know that shingles are going to change that much in the next 30 years, I think it's a possibility. Of course a color change is always possible.
Maybe our roofers' charges are too high for the heavier shingles. That could be, but we like our roofer and have used him for a long time. Also, I'm not that familiar with the "lifetime" shingles that are not Grand Manor or comparable. It appears I have some research to do about that.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I am in Toronto,first installed the Grand Manoir about 15 years ago,the first one is showing algae stains on the north side,other sides holding well.
We bought them last summer for $245 cdn. per sq
IMO, heavier means harder to cut so they skin their knuckles a little more often.Crybabies!Real shingle layers have knuckles like chimpanzees already anyways.
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Mike
I just priced 30 year Owen-Corning Duration 30 year 110MPH shingles at $62.31/ sq and Duration Lifetime 130MPH shingles at $88.56.
That's 42 % higher. That's $1,050 higher on a 40 sq roof and then the guy also has a 12 sq garage. Or about a 10% increase on the whole job.
I looked at two roofs last year that were the Certainteed Hallmark, with a tiger stripe pattern (375 lb I think). At 14 years old they were shot on the south slopes and looking rough otherwise.
By today's standard we would call that a 40 year roof. 15 years ago i don't think anyone claimed that their roof would last 40-50 years or lifetime.
I looked at a Certainteed Horizon last week that was 5 years old and cracking badly. The HO called me into the house and asked what's the deal with those shingles? Should they be cracking that bad after 5 years.
I am currently replacing a Certainteed 3 tab with the plastic strip on the back with the manufacturers code on it. I don't think Certainteed was doing that 10 or 15 years ago. I don't know how old the roof is and the owner inherited the house.
I'm not beating up on Certainteed, because I installed alot of the 30 year Sealdon shingles. I wasn't ready to join the fiberglass revolution, I thought they tore too easily and the early fiberglass had a bad track record.
So I am torn. If it was mine roof I would pay the extra and buy the heavier shingle and cross my fingers.
What I did 18 years ago was buy #1 wood shingles and do 1/4 of my roof at a time. Wood shingles were $125/sq and asphalts were $30/ sq.
Rich
Mike and Stephen must live a lot closer to the factories than we do. 40 years shingles are about 10%-12% higher than 30's and we can add about the same again for 50's.http://grantlogan.net/
But you all knew that. I detailed it extensively in my blog.
Grant- i live about 30 minutes from an O.C. plant--and maybe 1-1/4 hours from a certainteed plant.
however the 50 year ELKS I bought last fall were shipped up here from alabama I believe-and the price ratio was the same.
stephen
BTW-- 30 year elks were shipped over from PAyour suppliers are screwing you
Edited 4/14/2008 6:55 am ET by Hazlett
the 50 year ELKS I bought last fall were shipped up here from alabama I believe-and the price ratio was the same.
Probably because you have a better market for the heavy weights there. I had some customers that came here from Chicago that were perplexed that I even gave them a price on 30's. Your harsher weather must drive the market.http://grantlogan.net/
But you all knew that. I detailed it extensively in my blog.
gotta run this AM but i did a quick check
today we will do a small one day project.
weds. we will start a 3 day project------both projects are 30 year shingles---but upgrading both to 50 year/lifetime shingles would have increased the cost to the customer 9-10%so---for 9-10% more in cost--you get potentially a 66% longer lasting roof.
stephen
grant... we're paying $53 for Landmark 30
$82 for Landmark 50
& $100 for Landmark TL
as far as i no... Landmark TL is a tri-laminate & there is only one Landmark TL
also... my roofer increases his installed price from 30 to 50 by 8%
and from 50 to TL by about 6%
here's a typical : apx 24 sq, strip & reroof....
my cost: $7800.........$8400........ $8900
all the mfr's are very busy confusing everyone as to what they are really selling.. all the wrappers say things like "Landmark 50 is now called Landmark Premium"
these are comming out of an old Bird plant ( Norwood , Mass )
our Landmarks were comming out of North Carolina
another thing that has changed is the distribution: Certainteed used to sell only to Roofing Supply yards
now they are also selling thru Lumber YardsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I just ran the numbers and my upsell "price" to the customer is about 11% total between 30's and 50's. I was getting confused with the use of "cost" vs. "price".
So, actually I'm in agreement with Haz about upsell "price", but the heavy weights are not a real common item here. We usually do 30's or Grand Manors, but not much in between.
FWIW, they call Landmark 40's Landmark Plus now. http://grantlogan.net/
But you all knew that. I detailed it extensively in my blog.
"I just priced 30 year Owen-Corning Duration 30 year 110MPH shingles at $62.31/ sq and Duration Lifetime 130MPH shingles at $88.56.That's 42 % higher."I'll sign up for remedial spelling if you will take the remedial math class.
It is only 26.25% higher Edit to add sheepish grin - I just checked my own math - you are right.
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Edited 4/14/2008 7:08 pm ET by Piffin
Piffin
I have seen older shingles last 30 years. But that was when they sold them by weight and not so much by years.
But as I am tearing them off and the owner tells me how old they are it's 30 years after the purchase so what do I know about what the shingles were sold as.
I know the old standard grade shingle was alot thicker than today's shingle.
Heck you probably installed some of the shingles I tore off. And you double nailed them too. LOL
Rich
"as I am tearing them off and the owner tells me how old they are it's 30 years after the purchase so what do I know about what the shingles were sold as."If you are me, you just remember laying the damn things
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Piffin
I have done that at least once.
I installed 25 year 3 tabs, and 15 years later replaced them after a hail storm.
But hey were looking pretty rough.
I built a soundproof (sort of) double wall for the local paper.
The new press need extra space. we kept commenting that somebody is going to hate us when they tear this wall out, because we were sealing and caulking everything.
3 weeks later the publisher calls and asks us to move that wall another 3 feet east.
He screwed up and had the wrong measurements. LOL
Rich
You wanna talk re-dos?I have re-built the same kitchen 4-5 times for the same customer...Once for each new wife.Some guys just have to buy a new bed and mattress
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Piffin
I have a large house. used to be like 5-6 apartments.
Helped couple #1 convert to single family.
Got a divorce, helped wife convert to apartments.
Couple # 2 buy the house, tear out last conversions and convert by to single family.
I felt like a serf. Owners may change but I go with the property. LOL
Rich
Certainteed makes a shingle line-"Landmark" that offers a lifetime shingle.- It is a good investment--really nor much more in material cost than the 30 year product
they make an entirely different product called a trilaminate--ALSO a "Lifetime" shingle
the warranty essentially the same with the 2 "lifetime shingles----but the Trilaminate is significantly more expensive.
the standard"lifetime" product I feel is a good value---the Trilaminate---?---well you will have to do your own calculations.
stephen
Stephen or any other pro roofers out there:
I'm thinking of putting IKO 50-year Cambridge on my roof. I was reading the installation instructions and it warned against putting them on a roof deck of dimensional lumber, which is what my 55-year old house has. Buckling concerns. Any thoughts on this being an issue?
Regards,
Tim Ruttan
if you have dimensioal lumber , the mfr will have a procedure for working with it
in Cerainteed's case they want you to rip the boards so none are wider than 6 inchesa lot of board roofs get a 3/8 plywood overlay before being reroofedMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Tim,
I am not real familiar with the IKO line-----so I would rather not comment on the brand.as far as shingling over solid 1x lumber?Mike mentioned Certainteeds recommendation/requirement.
I have seen that as well.
It is probably something that is a good idea on paper--but in practice I have NEVER done it.In my area( Stephens 12 block radius customer base)---most of the roofs are decked in syp 1x8'smost were built in the 1920'swith some more built in the 50's and early 60'sIf i had to guess--maybe 5% of the roofs we do have plywood/osb deckingWe never rip 1x8's in half to comply with Certainteeds recomendationAND- I have never done a roof where someone before me had done it either.This year is my 20th anniversary in business
due to a hail storm last summer-- i am getting to look at a lot of my first roofs from 10-20 years ago(most of the houses I roof this year will be houses I previously roofed many years ago)virtually all of them are dimensional shingles overfelt over1x8'sthey will be replaced with dimensional shingles over titanium UDL over 1x8's---but I have seen ZERO damage in this area caused by installing dimensional shingles over 1x8 deckingthese 1x8's are SYP----not known for being a dimensionaly stable wood
but they have been drying out since 1927.
If by chance we built a NEW house with solid decking and a high moisture content---THAT I would reccomend sticking to a 1x6
other than that--I wouldn't worry.Best wishes,
stephen
I'll back you up on the 1x. I've been at it for 25 years and the 1st ten, I don't think I ever roofed a house sheathed with plywood unless we tore off asphalt over cedar over split sheathing and sheathed it ourselves.
Now, new 1x might be a problem, but the old stuff has got to be about as stable as wood is going to get. http://grantlogan.net/
But you all knew that. I detailed it extensively in my blog.
well sure--it's been kilned dried at 140 degrees since 1927!, LOLStephen
As well as lasting longer, heavier shingles generally look better and offer much better resistance to wind and impact such as hail or branches. I generally use Malarkey shingles and recently walked on a roof covered with their 50 year. It was appreciably thicker and substantial. They even have a built-in algaecide to stop moss build up.
>> They even have a built-in algaecide to stop moss build up. <<
Here in NC I wouldn't have a roof installed that didn't have an "AR" (algae resistant) rating. You see all kinds of roofs around here that are in perfectly good shape (physically) but have black streaks all running down them - ugly! Some of these roofs are less than 10 years old. The only way to totally avoid it (that I know of) is to install a black roof. Then you could have heat build up concerns.
As see-you and others are discussing above I'd have to wonder about the color of a 50 yr roof going out of style (in some people's mind). Maybe when getting a 40yr, 50yr or lifetime roof, it's better to select a very conservative color like dk grey or weathered-wood (the color that supposedly goes with everything).
I assume none will last as long as the warranty.
We installed standard 3-tab asphalt shingles on my mother's house, which is five blocks from the Atlantic Ocean, in 1980. They are still keeping the house dry. They are black. They were either guaranteed for 15 or 20 years; I can't remember.