Replies

1. 
   The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Jan 19, 2002 10:57pm | #1

   *
   piffin - 08:14pm Jan 18, 2002 EST (107.)

   I've been trying to stay nuetral here and learn something. Picked up a few tips along the way because I may only run a couple staircases a year. But it's been hard reading.

   Larry does indeed have communication deficiencies and is attitudinally challenged but some of you (who I respect) have erred in assuming that Larry does stairs. He is only a Railing specialist. Because of this it shouldn't be too hard to believe that he has some astounding speeds for his installations. I doubt very much that the fit and finish will be as flawless as Stans or even mine, but he does what the ciustomer wants. Given that, the term hack might fit and he shouldn't be offended by it. But I see no reason to doubt his word on time if we add for setup.

   For instance, When I was a young buck, It was nothing for me to lay 16-20 squares of three tab shingles per day. My top placement rate was 27sq in a day. Hand nailing and neatly placed. I've had quite a few guys disbelieve that but it's true because I was a specialist and had every move dowqn to a science. Some other guys couldn't learn it my way because their attitude was wrong or their body mechanics worked differently. As long as they were paid by the square, their way wasn't wrong, just different.

   Same here! Diff spokes for diff folks. Keep posting the photos and facts and we can all learn something. The insults are too distracting. Both sides.

   OK, I'm done now.

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   one ...on the mountain - 08:40pm Jan 18, 2002 EST (107.1)
   we are one planet, one people...planet that way.
   Piffin...lay 27 square in a day by oneself including getting there, setting up, shingles carried up to roof, felt paper and drip placed, closing down for the day, tool pick up, site tidy up,....?????

   No...You are leaving out a zillion moves...right!?..

   Or you and all that tell these shingle tails are absolutely amazing....

   How many hours at the jobsite...from ignition off to ignition on?

   near the stream,

   aj

   My record squares was 16-19(maybe)...with a helper...includes all that needs to be done too. I bid 5-7 per man max.

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   Stan Foster - 09:00pm Jan 18, 2002 EST (108.)

   One.. on the mountain------

   You are a riot. My face is still grinning. ha

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   piffin - 10:05pm Jan 18, 2002 EST (109.)

   One,
   Went by a week before and ran the tarpaper.
   Shingles got delivered onto roof.
   I set up ladder at 6:30 AM and was picking up the trash eleven hours later. I cut my own ridge pieces and ran the drip edge and two valley metal - cut an open valley. Four twelve pitch.
   Counting a couple of hours for papering, it was a thirteen hour job so averages a little over two sq/hr

   Bidding today this old man would be figuring one sq per hour for the same job or a half/hr for a steeper or cut up job.
   I worked hourly for a company in Texas that had a quota of one sq/hr. My bud and I always put in for a ten hour day and went home by two o'clock on most days, having met the quota. Where I first started shingling, you weren't considered a shingle layer until you could do at least twelve sq a day on a regular walk on with the paper already there.

   My point is that someone who does it every day will do it faster. Rails is all orlo does so he can do it faster so I have no problem believing him on that.

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   Mike Smith - 10:22pm Jan 18, 2002 EST (110.)
   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Remodel / Repair
   piffen.. my buddy, barry.. got started in calif.. in the '70's... 17 sq. up & over... all by hisself...

   working til after dark when he started.. but just like u... off the roof by 2 after a couple months...

   course.. he ain't got no knees now...

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   piffin - 10:40pm Jan 18, 2002 EST (111.)

   My knees are the only joint that doesn't hurt now.
   Knock on wood.

1. 
   The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Jan 19, 2002 11:07pm | #2

   *Great info so far...Piffin, you have been very helpful....In my older years I am very interested in redoing the estimating world...Even to point of becoming the leading supplier of smalltime residential estimating data...SCAs...and work scheduling info....add in contracts...and take over the whole PM end right up to edge of plans production and sales.Time and time again...I look up estimating data for work we have not done...then do the work and find the book way of presenting the data is no where near the way the job gets done on site.Actual onsite time & motion verified and studied data guaranteed. Even include time lapse video of each worker for his entire day...from getting out of his truck toe getting back in. or closer to actual...from tool belt buckling...to unbuckle time.So give me more info...for now on roofing..but I would like to know your best times and what your moves are for any specialty in building a home.near the stop watch,aj

1. 
   The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Jan 19, 2002 11:16pm | #3

   *Piffin...More questions... Did you do the work by yourself? Just have to clear up any last details to use your time to show the fastest a shingle can be layed.So with nails...you could set 3 sq/hr at peak speed...maybe 4 I bet...That is...with all other details done by others or at other times. I bet you could do 5sq/hr at top speed with a gun...maybe 8 square with a helper feeding shingles?The best info you gave was what your old company used for rules of thumb... guys must do 1sq/hr, and the company bid 1/hr...and 1/2per hour for dificult. Estimating books should be written just like that...Simplified into what actual companies use for their estimating and for managing their crews...and what they actually pay guys...and what guys actually enjoy for pay...and for hours and all.Actual confirmed estimating data...pulled from compainies...Sized to fit...$100K, $500K, $1-2M.near the stream,aj

1. 
   Mike_Smith | Jan 19, 2002 11:39pm | #4

   *aj.. sometimes i get confused... but .. without looking it up... <<>>3 sq/man/ day for an up & over single story, 4 to 6 pitch...

1. 
   The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Jan 19, 2002 11:48pm | #5

   *Mike...I'm baking chocolate Chip cookies...Buy chips...all other ingredients in inventory...pull all out...mix up first part...add flour and chips..bake 2 pans, twice...cool...into cookie jar, and clean up...1hr plus...includes cruising Breaktime.Your info is exactly the format I need...Estimate number used...and cost charged would be nice or email for privacy...then actual results abtained...on average of course...Like we ussually beat estimate by 1/2 sq...or get behind by 1/2...or vary alot...but make our annual numbers by averaging for the whole year.Drywallers often make 1/2 to 45 times the money per job and hope to make it by averaging for the year.near the cookies in the stream,ajCan yaa all smell em!?...Hey all in cooking......mmmmm!

2. 
   piffin_ | Jan 20, 2002 03:34am | #6

   *AJ - just found thread-My top speed was just under four sq/hr but no way to keep it up all day. I saw a guy run six in an hour once but it was crappy work and he only laid about 9 or 10 that day. Spent rest of day bragging while I ended up laying more per hour all day. I've never liked shingling with a gun. Got prejudiced against them way back when they were coming into use. It was frustrating keeping adjustments to pressure, clearing jams, tripping breakers, etc and I could lay more in a day without fighting the tool. Nowadays, I can see the advantage on cold days.If you are building a national data base keep in mind that methods differ from one part of the country to another. I've worked in Florida, Texas, Colorado, and now Maine. They've all got different climates which calls for diff application methods, design pitches, flashing details, valley styles, laying patterns, etc. which are neither right or wrong but apropriate for the locale. I can think of roofs where I was proud to have installed more than one square that day due to steep roof, staging setup and flashing details. I est. by using factors to multiply the base cost for steep, cut-up, high work, difficult access, etc.The only roofs I do now are when it is part of the overall job and I can't get the roofer in on time.