ROOFING – Stapling 3 tab, good or bad?
toolbear
| Posted in Construction Techniques on
Folks,
Watching the roofer on the job next door banging away with a staple gun on the three tab.
I wondered if this is a good or bad idea (from the viewpoint of the owner). I usually associate coil nailers with this work.
I should think that there is a lot less surface area under the crown of a staple than under a roofing nail. Does this technique hold up in high winds?
Would you do it on your home?
Replies
I don't know about holding power but here in Florida stapling is not up to code and this is one change few people, even the roofing contractors, fought. I suspect that most everyone knew it was fast but inferior.
Stapling sheathing to rafters or trusses was also stopped.
I've been to this one house about 3 times replacing,renailing shingles that were
stapled on, so with that said, I guess its a no brainer
Most mfg.reps/trouble shooters I have dealt with will not honor a blow-off warranty claim for stapled shingles.
They also will not honor a claim where the man operating the coil nailer is careless with the placement, as well as the depth and angle of the nail's set.
Flat and snug is important. Watch and inspect how it is being done the same as you would be vigilent of the placement of flashings.
.................Iron Helix
what I read said it was POSSIBLE to drive the staples properly but most were in at an angle cutting the shingle.
so the code, in hurricane zones banned staples.
Codes in majority of areas state; Nails or Staples.
What does yours say?
Canadian code says nail or staples, but staples must be at least 1" crown and parallel to eaves.. That surpised me, I figured staples were verboten because I've never seen them used.Lignum est bonum.
I dunno ...
the staples do make for one nice day at tear off time ...
whole sheets .... bigger than ya can carry to the edge.
I like them for tearing off .... almost like velcro
won't put any down with staples though ....
Jeff
I've only worked on one job where the shingles were stapled on, but it was enough to convince me.
I went over to help re-roof my Sister's house. I could slide a shovel under the edge of the shingles and pull off HUGE chunks of shingles at a time with very little effort. We had the shingles off one side of the 16X30 garage in something like 20 minutes.
So like I said - That was enough to convince me.
Gun-control laws "haven't been an effective solution to the underlying problem of violent crime." [Al Gore]
FWIW, my area is fairly windy, especially when you get out in the corn and soybean field areas.
I don't see many stapled roofs (judging by the few exposed fasteners I can see walking the roof) but the ones I do see don't have a higher percentage of failure.
A much greeter concern in my opinion is whether the tabs seal properly.
Different areas will have different levels of concern.
God never gives us small ideas.
Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
Here in CT staples are not allowed for gov't projects.
It doesn't hold up in high winds; I wouldn't do it on my own home. I worked for a guy who stapled shingles. We replaced about a third of the shingles on a house after a storm because the shingles blew off or lifted. Main problem is setting the staples just right--either they were too deep and then the shingle just tore at the staples, or they weren't deep enough and the flapping of the shingle pried the staple loose.
All,
Thanks for the input on stapled shingles. This forum is certainly the bane of hack workers. You can get a whole passel of informed opinions and experiences overnight. Wonder if the job is a spec house or what. If not, it's a lesson for the owner. You best know what is happening.
It will be interesting to watch this roof come winter in Atascadero with driving rains and high winds. SonInLaw's portapottie blew over last winder because (1) it was not ballested down, (2) it was not tied down. He got the cleanup. Teachable moment.
I don't know the CA code on this, but being CA, I suspect it calls for about 100# of Simpson straps on the roof. We are normally installing cement tile with big long nails.
TOOL - I had not seen this before, but I want one. SonInLaw had a widget that hose clamped to his Skill: Adjustable water pipe, valve and hose connection. Install diamond blade and wet cut. We have been dry cutting and that sucks. (Wonder what happens if you wet cut Hardie Plank?)
If you are still looking for that water supply hose for a skilsaw, I think Pearl abrasives makes one for their "saw roller" I might have the name wrong but they make a "roller skate" that clamps to your skilsaw for easier cutting of concrete or stone. One of the optional accesories is a water nozzle for dust control and blade cooling.
Karl
edited to note
I found this description on amazon
Pearl Abrasive Co BRWK001 Blade Roller Water Kit
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Product Description
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The Blade Roller Water Kit attaches easily to the handle of your circular saw and allows the safe and efficient wet cutting of concrete, granite, marble and other natural stone. Water helps control dust and keeps the diamond blade cool and lubricated, thus extending blade life. The kit includes GFCI, ball valve, diverter assembly and all necessary hardware for fastening to tool.
Edited 10/16/2004 2:57 am ET by karl
Thanks for the tip. I have seen the roller system somewhere in FHB or Journal of LC.
Its against manufactors warranty and its not code .
Tim Mooney
Tool bear, you have received a lot of opposing replies. Tim Moone claims it voids the warranty. Other have said the opposite. All but Bob speak negatively...although Jeff gives mixed signals.
I'm here to present the opposing view.....geeeee...is that such a big surprise?
I've owned a wide crown stapler for the last 16 years. I use it in a very wide variety of ways. One notably "creative" use is the building of circular stairs. I'll post a pic showing their use.
Anyways, I have stapled roofs. I don't do many roofs for others, but I do remember doing some remodeling that involved staples. I've never had a call back due to the fasteners failing.
The last one that I used staples on is the house on Lake Huron. This is a high wind zone. There is no sign of failure, but only three years have passed. Foolishly, I forgot to "double nail", which is required in wind zones. I quit holding my breath after the first winter...I'm past worrying about that detail. The roof is a basic dimensional shingle...bottom of the "designer" line.
Bob correctly mentions that a critical element of a solid roof installation is getting the roofs to seal. Another critical factor is spacing. An expansion space is required but most installers ignore this detail.
Shingles require a minimum wide crown. It is imperative that the staple set itself to the proper depth...not too tight, not too loose. Most nail gun operators think this is a function of air pressure...which is incorrect. Indeed, I've been told that the way to adjust the depth of staples is the add a small regulator on the end of the gun. I actually tried that when I was young and dumb.....
The truth is that you must have an adequate air pressure to consistently fire the plunger. The plunger length determines the "set". Uneven pressure by the operator will cause inconsistent depth of set.
The same things all hold true for coil roofing nailers. The difference is the margin of error. The coil nailer would appear to be more forgiving.
In summary, I'll admit that coil nailing would probably yeild less failures due to the more advanced skill levels that are required for staple nailing. If someone staples all day, every day, I'm sure they can pick up the required skills...in five minutes or less.
blue
ps my tools have an adjustable nosepiece.....and I know how to adjust it!
Something we can agree on, blue!
My roof is going on six years now. 4/12 roof-over in WVA mountains. Have to tie down or bring inside anything you want to keep when it blows.
I've talked to certainteed CS rep - no problem with staples as long as they are properly applied.
I'm interested in any other uses you have for wide crown. Used mine to hang homasote on a basement ceiling before sheetrock.
Mike, I use that wide crown foam, paper (the obvious uses). I've drywalled with it (fireboard). I use it in applications that need short lengths (we use a lot of 1" long staples). It's a great tacker.....for instance when I used to cut bridging, I used to staple two pieces together with a third acting as a lacer. I'd use a 4' wide piece and line up about twenty pairs....then mark them all at once with my manly framing square and then cut them. I could cut an entire job in less than five minutes.
I've stapled bridging with it. Its an awesome toobag fixer. We always staple our scrap tyvek to blocks of wood. It's a pretty good tool for rapid firing at the geese.....um....no PITA we don't really do that....
We also use the wide crown to act as a splice plate in numerous framing operations. These are generally temps.
Here's a pic of the circular stairs. We lay these all on the floor and staple them, prior to standing them up..”
I hope this pic isn't too big. I'm just relearning the pic tricks.
blueIf you want to read a fancy personal signature... go read someone else's post.
And how many nails?
some mfgs say 6 in high wind areas. 4 in others.
what are people using?
6 pattern is 1 at edge, 2 at slit 2 at slit, one at edge.
Yep, too big. Set file size around 500 here and format to jpg.
The dialup guys are people too.
Rez, thanks for the reply.
Where do I set the file size? In here, or in anther program?
You pic opened up to be the same size, but was only 33k. Mine was 379k. Obviously mine probably had more pixels.
I'm thinking I have to reduce the pixels before I upload them...is that correct?
blueIf you want to read a fancy personal signature... go read someone else's post.
Most here use irfanview ( http://www.irfanview.com ) before the pic gets uploaded...
Use the image / sharpen / resize resample fuction...
set the DPI around 70 and the size for around 500 pixels...
with edit you can crop to yer hearts content..
IV is free and safe to use...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
24441.1 is one old thread that contains a lot of data regarding Irfanview.
You could use the search function with 'irfanview' typed in. It will take you to other threads sometimes discussing different questions regarding downsizing and such.
cropped / resized...
View Image
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Oh yeah? Take this...
ROAR!!!
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
HAH!!!!!
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
You guys are having quite a bit of fun....
But....it looks like I'll have to do it myself...the point was to show the wide crown staples doing a unique job. You've made the pic smaller, but lost the staple detail.
I hate to load another competing picture software program...and the ensuing battle for associations...I am so sick of these programs taking over my computer....loading auto shortcuts etc.
I think I used to have Iraqview...or whatever...I uninstalled it. I'll head over to Tucows and reload....
blueIf you want to read a fancy personal signature... go read someone else's post.
OOPS!
This better...
Over-all and with detail.....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
IT'S WAR!!!
D&C or hoist the white flag
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
never!
point 6KB
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
uncle
ROTFLMAO
What a war it was!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
588 bytes
just couldn't quit eh? LMAO
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
312 BYTES
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Edited 10/16/2004 8:02 pm ET by IMERC
just in case....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
You win Imerc!
blueIf you want to read a fancy personal signature... go read someone else's post.
well, ya.
Nailed my hide to the wall with that one.
err...stapled.
Trust my milk bones are on the way..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Yep, sure are.
Best I got was 286 bytes.
today
Edited 10/17/2004 3:57 am ET by rez
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Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
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send them milkbones back!
Edited 10/18/2004 9:23 am ET by rez
no
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
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View Image5bytes.jpg1KB
yes
no
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
still no
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
give 'em up!!!
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View Image0byte.jpg1KB
you still have something there...
so it can't be 0 bytes....
besides even the the dog didn't get any...
zero bytes of zero milk bones left....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
I don't write the programs so whadda I know what happened.
So you you concur and send them back.
Good thinking.
nope
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Oh Oh.
Just realized we're in the Construction folder and not the Tavern so I'll end the illict correspondance and accept your return of the milkbones.
Thanks, knew you see it straight in the end.
Cheese
err...Cheers
That you deleting all those posts????
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
I think it has to do with FH issues #153 and 351.
In twenty years of roofing and fifteen since then of remo work, I've had I don't know how many calls to repair wind damaged roofs - too many.
in EVERY case, the reason was not the high wind. it was always ionadequate fastewning. probably three forths because the shingles were installed with staples that ripped through the shingle, and the other quarter of the events were from hack shingle layers who got by with only two or three nails per shingle.
in the event of not enough nails, there wqere usually only a few shingles missing at the ridge or rake area where winds are highest. In the events with staples, whole sections of roof lifted off, still well sealed together, with the staples stil in the plywood sheathing.
I won't use staples on my roofs and you won't either if you are working on my roofs.
But that's just my opinion
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
But, it's sooo much faster <g>.
If they won't hold the panels down, why should they hold shingles.
Get any high winds this winter, we might see something of interest.
All pheneumatic nailers need to be handled with an ut most caution on Roofing, that is you must have the depth stop set very exact, if one can do that it's ok...
Scribe once, cut once!