We live in NC and are about to have a new roof put on, after the existing is torn off. We got a few quotes and found a contractor we like so we are just trying to nail down (har har) the final details on product selection before getting underway.
For shingles, we are looking at Certainteed Designer Landmark, GAF Timberline HD and Owens Corning Oakridge.
We don’t have much preference here as they have been presented as comparable products/warranties just with different color options. Any feedback on better / worse would be great!
For underlayment, there is a larger debate. I’ve read through pages and pages of the forum and can’t seem to gather a concensus on what is best for us. Our contractor says he normally uses felt because he feels that synthetics are a sales gimmick but he has done synthetic before and is happy to order / install it if that is our preference.
Since we aren’t doing a metal roof, is synthetic “better” than felt. I understand it has value to the contractor for ease of installation but what is the value to me? Does it last longer? Protect the house from leaks better? Seal around the nails better? Reflect heat better? The roofing will be torn off and installed the same day so exposure during installation is not a concern.
If synthetic is the best choice .. which one? There are several I’ve seen mentioned and I’m having a hard time determing the difference. Titanium and Palisade have been quoted to us and I’ve seen Triflex mentioned a lot in this forum. If it isn’t, should we go with 15, 30, roofers select, or something else?
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Underlayments
I tried posting everything at once and the spam filter said No :(
For underlayment, there is a larger debate. I've read through pages and pages of the forum and can't seem to gather a concensus on what is best for us. Our contractor says he normally uses felt because he feels that synthetics are a sales gimmick but he has done synthetic before and is happy to order / install it if that is our preference.
Since we aren't doing a metal roof, is synthetic "better" than felt. I understand it has value to the contractor for ease of installation but what is the value to me? Does it last longer? Protect the house from leaks better? Seal around the nails better? Reflect heat better? The roofing will be torn off and installed the same day so exposure during installation is not a concern.
If synthetic is the best choice .. which one? There are several I've seen mentioned and I'm having a hard time determing the difference. Titanium and Palisade have been quoted to us and I've seen Triflex mentioned a lot in this forum.
Our contractor also quoted Roofer's Select Fiberglass and 15# felt. If the synthetics listed above aren't of signifcant value would you suggest the roofer's select, 15lb, 30lb or something else?
Thanks in advance for responses, we are a bit overwhelmed with all the choices and information out there.
For walls I'm a big fan of housewrap vs felt, but for roofing felt is (in my opinion) fine.The felt under shingles provides little in the way of extra leak protection, and is present mostly to serve as a "slip sheet" between the shingles and sheathing, which helps reduce buckling. (And, I suspect, even that effect is marginal -- it would be interesting to see an honest long-term side-by-side test of modern shingles with/without felt to see if it makes any real difference.) But the synthetic should be fine too.
Re the shingles, we (and thousands of others) had a bad experience with Certainteed and will never use their products again. It wasn't so much that they made a defective product, but they continued to make (and sell) it for ten years after the problem became apparent.
(BTW, one other place where having felt (or the synthetic equivalent) under the shingles helps is on tear-off.)
The place I work for sells Certainteed shingles and have had no complaints.
IMHO the synthetic products really shine of you're doing your own roof and it's gonna take you a while to get the shingles on. Aside from that, I don't know of a reason to use them.
It was shingles out of the Minnesota plant that had the problems. Apparently shingles from other plants were OK. (Don't know how many plants Certainteed uses, but apparently several.)
But the problem I have with Certainteed is not that they had a defective product (shit happens) or even that they offered piddling for compensation. Rather, it's the fact that they continued to sell the defective product for 10 years after they knew they had a problem (apparently since the terms of the warranty allowed them to depreciate the shingles to the point that they offered pennies on the dollar, so they didn't lose money even if every shingle they sold was claimed as defective).
Tracie,
just my 2 cents worth,
I prefer felt paper (30 # better than 15 # ) instead of synthetics. Felt paper DOES contribute to helping keep leaks from doing more damage than they might do if there were no underlayment, it acts as a secondary surface to direct water off the roof, and not by way of running down the sheathing surface (i.e. plywood) which it would soak into, but on the tarpaper surface.
Second, tar paper allows more breatheability from the underside of the shingles, and the sheathing, than synthetics (IMHO)
Third, it's always been my understanding that the felt is an integral part of the fire classification rating for the roof assembly
(e.g. class "A" vs class "B" rating) How the synthetics effect that rating I'm not sure, if at all.
just my 2cents worth
Geoff
Let me see if I can run down these questions:
I understand it has value to the contractor for ease of installation but what is the value to me?
Does it last longer? Yes, it's plastic and after it's out of the sun it stops deteriorating. Asphalt in felt can leach out over time, and with water exposure can become worthless. Depending on the life of your shingles, maybe that will make a difference. Are you putting on the cheapest shingles anticipating moving in 5 years?
Protect the house from leaks better? A roof is a system of layers designed to keep water flowing out at every level. As long as it's installed correctly, it should perform the same as anything else. BUT, I would consider the imperfect world, where someone needs to cut a hole in the roof in 15 year to install a HD WhirlyWuzzy (they aren't invented yet, but everyone will need one installed in 15 years). I would think that plastic would perform better in a remodel situation than felt paper, which can tear if mishandled. The plastic will behave the same as it did the day it was installed, since it doesn't deteriorate.
Seal around the nails better? Maybe. I've read that too, but I'm a litte queazy about that claim. Make sure that whatever product you choose, it is installed per it's specifications: For instance, Titanium UDL 30 can NOT be installed using staples of any sort - only cap nails. Titanium UDL 50 on the other hand CAN be installed with cap staples.
Reflect heat better? Only while it is bare. This is a misleading claim - the moment you place something in contact with it, like the roof deck under it and the shingles over it, it looses all reflectivity. Now everything is transmitted with conduction, and the only thing that slows that down is a thermal insulator.
So, really the only thing I can point to as being a positive for the homeowner is that it retains its durability far into the future when renovation work is done. Is that worth the couple hundred premium? I would think so.
Is the roof vented or unvented?
Been using Grace Triflex lately since that is carried by my supplier. As an installer, the rolls are wider than felt, much lighter, one roll covers what 4 or 5 rolls of felt would, it doesn't rip or tear, lays nice and flat, doesn't wrinkle if it should get wet or get too slippery, safe to walk on, quicker, more accurate installation, lays down the same regardless of temperature, no odor, no black marks, fewer "joints". I can cover a roof in no time to "dry" in a building and not have to worry about morning dew, let alone a storm. I wouldn't use felt unless I could cover it immediately nor would I consider the roof "dried in" with just felt on it. I think the Triflex pays for itself just in terms of ease of installation.
You can't really compare the newer underlayments to felt paper. Felt doesn't offer any of the advantages mentioned above. Since felt is so prone to ripping, wrinkling and can tear out around the fasteners, it actually takes a lot more care to install properly for the best secondary protection. If you get heavy wind that rips off some shingles, tar paper usually blows right off with the shingles. Mother nature can destroy anything but I'd rather have a synthetic under the shingles should a storm only blow off some shingles and not drop a huge tree through the roof.
The back up protection of an underlayment isn't an issue for you unless you have a blow off or let the shingles go way past their life. Installation advantages aren't important to you either or to a single roof. I would wonder about any competent, modern roofing contractor that was still using felt, why are they stuck in the dark ages, afraid of change or just stubborn? Use the synthetic underlayment once and you'll be a convert. It's a superior product all around.
Good article
Fine Homebuilding did a very good article on the synthetic vs. felt underlayments comparing the two.
If you activate the trial period for online membership you can download and read it.
The advantages are to him for the most part.
It is faster and easier to install.
On a steeper roof it is easier/safer to walk on
For extended exposure such as a remodel, it will last longer than felt and is more wind resistent.
consider upgrading to Ultra shingles
We just did our under construction home in Timberline Ultra. These are like 50% thicker than the HD's. I suggest you ask what kind of cost premium these would be (the shingle material cost is a small part of the tear-off, disposal, replacing rotten wood, flashings etc.) (Fortunately I had the contractor leave me some HD's for colour samples and I felt these were just reconfigured old 3-tab shingles, ie thin. We then upgrade to Ultra (about $1000 for 25 square) and the roof looks more 3D.)
We needed to use StormGuard (peel-and-stick) on the 3:12 slopes (warrenty requirement) and DeckArmor on the rest (8:12). There is probably a slight advantage to synthetics over tar paper. Its faster in case of dew or rain, and very walk-able. I was on the 8:12 in old running shoes and it felt safer than my tar paper experience. It wont "petrify" and get brittle like old tar paper either.
John
Current shingle warranties tend to push the installation of "systems", meaning the manufacturer typically wants all materials to be made by them. I'd let that and what the installer is comfortable with drive my decision. Personally, I prefer synthetics, but I do more specialty type roofs, so a longer open time is often required. I don't like to use felt if it will be exposed over night.