My dad suggested that I bring my question to this forum so here it goes……I hope somebody can help.
After purchasing a new home I noticed some of the exterior wood doors were pretty well rotten at the bottom of the door and along the threshold. I decided to have Lowes install a new Pella (sp?) door. They assured me that if there was any rot underneath the door they would fix that also.
As luck would have it I was out of town when they installed the door. My wife ( who was home at the time of installation) did notice a lot of rot underneath the old door, and they did clear out most of it…..But what concerned me the most was that one of the underlying joists had about 1/4 inch of rot on it. The installer assured my wife that this was not big deal, and that as long as the area remained dry, the rot would not spread. They covered the area with some metal flashing and caulk, and installed the door.
After my wife and I did some research on the internet I am not so sure that leaving the rot is the proper procedure. Some web sites did say that as long as the area was dry it should be fine since moisture is what feeds the rot. However most of those sites recommended that the area should be treated. Then some say they only way to properly fix the problem is to get rid of all of the rot, and then use epoxy to fill in the holes.
I want this job done right. I don’t want to go back and have to revisit this problem in 4 or 5 years. Is it OK to leave rotten wood, as long as it will no longer get wet? Or do I need to have the door taken out again and have all the rot taken out and the area properly treated? And if I choose the latter option am I going to be without a door for awhile since they will need to leave it off to let the epoxy cure?
Replies
Before I say anything else....You have a very smart dad! and welcome to Breaktime.
I decided to have Lowes install a new Pella (sp?) door
Lowes does a OK job most of the time selling stuff, I would not have them install a bird house.
But what concerned me the most was that one of the underlying joists had about 1/4 inch of rot on it. The installer assured my wife that this was not big deal
You are on the right track but this IS a big deal.
Is it OK to leave rotten wood, as long as it will no longer get wet? Or do I need to have the door taken out again and have all the rot taken out and the area properly treated? And if I choose the latter option am I going to be without a door for awhile since they will need to leave it off to let the epoxy cure?
NO it is never OK to leave rotten wood. If you leave wood that is rotten in contact with good wood, you guarantee that the good wood will very soon be rotten.
The only fix for this is to remove all the bad wood.
I jut went back and reread your post. The rotten wood I believe you are talking about is the bottom 2X 4 or 6 under the door. If so removal and replacement of the entire infected piece of wood plus 6 - 8 inches is the only option. Frankly I would rip some sheetrock off on the inside as well just to make sure that more of the wood in the wall isn't rotten as well.
The main problem is if this is Dry Rot you have to treat it as an infection for which there is no cure except removal. Dry rot, once started, will eat your whole house, with or without moisture.
There is another question though
What started the underlying problem, the rot? where did the water come from? and has that been tackled / dealt with yet?
Adam
Adam, what 2x4 or 2x6 would you be talkin about under his door?..You mean a threshold or what?
View Image
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Adam,
I respectfully disagree with your statement about dryrot. It is a fungus that needs a moisture content above about 20% to grow. The spores are everywhere floating around in the air. Once the moisture is removed the fungus will lay dormant. Temperature has an effect as does air or lack of air.
KK
A spore needs food and 20%+ moisture to develop. Once established it sends out fine tubes, up to 30' long, through which it can send water [by capillary attraction] to other timber and make that wet enough to host more growing spores.
The recommended treatment is to remove all affected timber and sound timber at least 2' past the rot. The surface of all timber in the surrounding area is to be painted with a preservative and all replacement timber is to be treated.Remove the source of water to prevent more spores developing and establish good air circulation.
IanDG
Well thank you all for your input. From everything I have read it looks like the best course of action is to have the rot replaces. From what I have read it does not look like it is dry rot. The rot came from the fact that the previous door had failed or was not installed properly. I had made it clear to Lowes that I wanted the door installed with any rot removed, since I was sure that there was going to be at least some.
My paranoia of rot stems from the fact the our master bathroom is now unsafe b/c the previous owners of my house left a leaky shower head go unfixed for years. It is scary the amount of damage that was done! I am looking at about a $25000 repair job if I am lucky. I am trying to have everything in the house fixed right so that when I go to sell the house I can feel good about it.
I have not heard back from Lowes yet. The manager I spoke with said he was going to do some research and talk to the installer and salesman and get back to me. I am not going to hold my breath though. From the sound of it he did not think that Lowes was equipped to do any of repairs that are needed.
Thanks everyone for your help. I will have pictures taken of the door when and if I have it pulled out.
I hope that your wonderfull father is not too disappointed with us here. It looks like there won't be any unanimous aggree ment that will definitely put your mind at ease.
The problem is that without being therre to see it and know which framing member is effected and how it relates to the door, it is not possible to make any definitive statements. Adam comes across with a very strong opinion but it is only an opinion. I hesitate to give one on this because there are so many varibles possible.
First, there is no such thing as "dry rot" I've heard that half a dozen times from experts in the field. It is a common piece of lingo for wood that has experienced some rot decay action but that is currently dry aqnd not growing. Keep it dry and it will remain dormant and non-invasive.
That is the same situation with the rest of the wood in the hjouse. Keep it dry.
This is where you might have problems with Lowes. I have to guess but I suppose that based on what I have seen around the country, over half of the window and door replacement specialists do terrible work at flashings and moisture stop work. All qualoty door men people and building scientists now recommend a pan flashing or peel and stick membrane under thresholds before setting the unit. I wonder oif that was done. were good flashings installed above the door and under the rain/drainage plain behind the siding? Was quality caulk used at the casing edges?
back to the rot on the joist. I wonder was it rotted to crumbly weakness or was it merely discoloured, or something in between. Was it in a locatioin where there is load bearing on the rotted portion. if it is in a critical spot, and has lost it's integrity, it will settle in and possibly allow the threshold to settle to the point that the door will not close right - but if they replaced the rim joist adequately to take the load, and this rot was only along a short inch or two of the top of an intersecting joist, then possibly the installer is right and you will be fine.
But without being there, it is hard to say for sure. If you had pioctures of work in progreess or can get such fromoin underneathe then that would help.
Now, if the door installation itself is well done and functioning, there is no good reason to take it all out again to deal with this spot, unless it is in a critical structural location, relative to the door. You can buy treatments to inject to prevent the funbgus from spreading and epoxies to inject to stabilize and strengthen the wood.
Let us know which way you are going. And say hi to Dad for us.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
"First, there is no such thing as "dry rot""
Dry RotSerpula Lachrymans
Dry Rot is one of the most serious fungal 'diseases' of timber in the built environment. Though methods of treating dry rot are well established these often rely on the removal of large amounts of timber, which may or may not be infected by the causative organism Serpula lacrymans, together with the use of fungitoxic chemicals.That was the opening paragraph of this link -- just one of many detailing the description and treatment of your "non-existent" dry rot.It isn't something to be ignored -- or treated lightly because kkearney was correct; it can spread through all the timber in a dwelling -- the mycelium are capable of growing through masonry.
IanDG
Thanks Ian, I stand ready to be corrected on this and am studying it some more here. I am wondering why so many "experts" stand and lecture on it if it is not so. I need to go read further.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Well, that was easy,
Serpula lacrymans is listed on the site you referenced as to the locations it is found. The only place in the USA is near Mt Shasta CA. but it is common in Europe and Asia.
in fact, when I Google for Serpula lacrymans, almost all the links come back in foreign languages from places where it is a problem. The ones in English seem to be from Scotland and Australia.
So I am going to do some supposing herre, that the common term "dry rot" is widely used to refer to any condition of fungal decay that has apparently ceased and leaves it's effects seen in the wood. That term can be and probably is used to apply to a number of different kinds of fungal infection. if indeed, the Serpula lacrymans is uncommon in north America, then the kind of dry rot you fear over there is not the same we normally refer to here in America.
I may be wrong in these suppositions and continue searching with that as my working hypothesis.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
http://www.uoguelph.ca/~gbarron/MISCELLANEOUS/jan01.htm
"...Associated with the rot was the presence of a fine garnet-coloured dust over large areas of the church and this dust was not confined to the area where the wood rot occurred.
Serpula lacrymans (Dry Rot Fungus) is the only wood rotting fungus that I know of that matches this description. This fungus is the most serious wood rot in the United Kingdom and also some other European countries. It is not generally regarded, however, as a serious problem in North America except under special conditions....
Why is this fungus not a serious problem in North America? During the winter in northern NA the hot air heating systems reduce the relative humidity in homes substantially to the point where the wood shrinks. This drying out of the wood to very low levels of moisture content will eliminate the Serpula fungus. Or so they say! Also there is a wide variation in North American climates across the continent. So it could be a problem in some regions but not in others.
Serpula is rarely reported in Southern Ontario where I live. Although it has been reported from time to time I have only seen it once. Is Serpula the cause of the problem in the church in Pennsylvania? The presence of large amounts of 'garnet coloured' dust suggests this possibility. "
http://www.buildingpreservation.com/Rots.htm
"Dry rot (Serpula lacrymans):
Almost certainly the most 'feared' of the rots, and sometimes called the 'cancer of a house'. However, like ALL wood rotting fungi, it requires water to become initiated, to grow and survive.
Dry rot is restricted to damp humid conditions; this makes it sometimes very difficult to find.
Dry rot has the ability to grow over and through materials from which it gains no nutritional value, eg, soil, plaster, mortar. BUT IT CAN ONLY DO THIS EFFECTIVELY IF SUCH MATERIALS ARE DAMP - IT WILL NOT GROW OVER AND THROUGH GENUINELY DRY MATERIALS!!. Thus, if there is dry rot in, say, flooring timbers it will not grow up through the masonry of the walls and effectively rot the rest of the house if such walls are dry.
"
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Apparently my hypothesis was wrong. All the sites I found did refere to this one organism as the cause of the "dry rot"
but they arre quite collective in reporting that wityhout water, the fungus ceases to do damage. It does spread its root hairs through surronding wood but to do so and to cause damage in that surronding wood, it must have moisture, either fromwithin the wood itself or from the site of its original infestation.
So pending further correction, I will stand by what I advised earlier, that if the door is installed and flashed correctly with no more water entering, and if the local limited damageis not in a critical location, the quarter inch of "dry rot" is inconsequential.
I learned further, that orange spores are a sign of this organism and that lab tests arethe only sure way to diagnose it. So this door installer may have only been shooting from the hip when he said that it was dry rot, using the generic term for a wet rot ( see last link cited) that has since dried. If so, the same adivce would apply.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin
"Serpula is rarely reported in Southern Ontario where I live."
Until I re-read your post I thought you had moved up here to the land of government paid medical care.
An ex-boat builder treading water!
Those were quotes cited from the links accompanying them
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
So I figured out when I re-read your post. Still it was a nice thought, thinking of you in the Thousand Islands or perhaps in the Georgian Bay islands.
An ex-boat builder treading water!
piffin,
Look for brown or crumbly rot. Here is Wood Handbook site.
http://www.wood-handbook.com/wood-handbook-chapter-13-5-biodeterioration-of-wood
KK
Hmm -- it was definitely present in Australia.The reason for removing the affected timber even if the dry rot is now dormant [apart from the significant loss of strength] is just that -- it's only dormant and the smallest source of moisture -- condensation, whatever, can start it up again. With your practice here of bare earth in crawl spaces [unlike England whose building regs call for a minimum of 4" concrete over all exposed earth] you'd be awfully vulnerable to freak flood conditions or such raising the water table and the humidity in the crawl space.Personally I wouldn't sleep safe leaving it in, but I guess I've seen what it can do.Wet rot, BTW, usually has masses of fungi growing on the wet timber -- I've seen it in a roof valley and the back of a chimney gutter where the flashings had broken.
IanDG
I'm never likely to forget dry rot -- my father bought a large property in 1950 that had stood empty for 3 years [he pulled it down and built 10 houses on the land]
It had dry rot which had started in the basement and gone up through 3 floors into the roof -- the scene in the basement was just like a horror movie. The main fruit spore was about 3' square and everywhere were these strands, like massed cobwebs, with drops of water hanging off them. The floor in one of the main rooms above sloped 2' from end to end where the bearers had been eaten away -- there was a magnificent fireplace, the mantel supported by a statue of Atlas each side, with carved pillars above flanking an enormous mirror -- the whole thing was so rotted you could poke your finger into it.The mycelium -- the tubes that carry the water -- had grown through the masonry and up the walls between the plaster and the brickwork and the rot had spread to every significant piece of timber in the structure --- all from a wet area in the basement!You had to admire its efficiency really. It has a very unmistakeable odor -- like damp earth, only more so.
IanDG
Ian,
It smells like money to me.
KK
In my experience, most problems in construction have to be cured by the application of large sums of money!
IanDG
Once, a long time ago, "Guest" posted a question regarding damage from rot under his door, which the installers (under contract or employees of Lowes - who cares) assured his wife that they could leave it, it would be fine.
My policy is to point out to the homeowner AT ONCE the presence of rot in the area of the work we are doing, and outline the options.
At the least: Clear out the rotted (punk) wood back to hard material, put in a stabalizer and begin the epoxy build-up.
Better: Cut out the rot, and if space permits, sister in new framing members, use treated lumber and the appropriate end sealer if it must be cut because of the previous presence of moisture. Use the proper fasteners.
The installers get paid by the door install, not to repair your house. If it were my door, it would be out like tomorrow morning. I would take pictures all along the way with emphasis on the damaged framing members. Get the repairs done properly and re-install the door, but this time make sure the installer (you?) does the flashing properly.
THEN: Take copies of the pics to the manager of the store, and discuss the situation with him/her. There may be a rebate on the install; and drop a copy at the home insurance agency. Keep track of your repairs in case of a claim and you need to prove the improvements.
Quality repairs for your home.
Aaron the Handyman
Vancouver, Canada
I just wanted to thank everyone for replying to my post. Lowes has been very cooperative in getting my door properly fixed. They have agreed to come out at no additional charge and remove the door so the rot can be repaired. I will either repair it myself or have a local contractor. It seems like most are afraid to deal with Epoxy, which is the method that sounds most appropriate to me. Some had mentioned removing the joists which really is not practical for this repair due to the limited amount of wood damage and the location of the joist.
I will take pictures and let everyone know how it goes. Thank you for your help, and I am sure I will be back with more questions.
I have an 1872 house that had several semi-rotted trim pieces along with some underlying framing. I did some research and found Abatron
http://www.abatron.com/home002.htm
and have used it with great success. Yes, I prefer to remove the rotted wood but in some cases, its just too much demolition. The liquid wood is a good consolidant the then you can build up the shape with the WoodEpox.
Good luck,
Norse
I gotta say... this has been one of the most interesting and informative threads I have read in a long time! Clicked on it thinking I was gonna be reading about a bad piece of fascia, maybe a threshold. Next thing I know I'm learning about a moisture seeking, constantly growing, ever changing, all consuming, fire-breathing, child eating, hungry, thirsty, insatiable creature that is tearing through bricks and mortar to get at the next poor unsuspecting framing member in my home! Seriously, this place is great. Who knew? I'm gonna drop that load of info on the next damp customer I run into and WOW the sox of 'em! :)
My sentiment exactly. Piffin does the research and we become experts.Smile. It could be worse. You could be me working for you.
just to affrim that abatron is a great product. most of my buisness is old estate restoration, and with abatron used in conjunction with west system epoxy systems, and min-wax wood filler . has made me into a hero more than once. the only thing that is very important is to let the liquid wood parts slake for a minimum of 10 minutes. but i'm sure that's no news to you, tempeture is imperative to anything below fifty delays all repairs dramatically. i fell it's a three season system (exterior wise) for optimum success ....... great thread ..regards ....bear"expectations are premeditated resentments"
Edited 2/27/2004 10:08:36 PM ET by the bear
I tried the Abatron stuff once and was less than impressed with it. We had a header that had rotted due to an overhead leak. It was concealed damage so the replacement wasn't in the base contract. The owner didn't want to cough up the difference so the Abatron was the compromise. Because the beam was horizontal, we could really goop the stuff on. The product just seemed to be sitting on top of the wood and not really penetrating it. Well the homeowner was being kinda difficult at the time and we just wanted out so we wern't going to saying thing. Naturally, the home owner had a change of heart and decided to replace the header. We cut it in half right through the Abatron. The penetrator hadn't penetrated more than 1/8". The epoxy did indeed just sit on top. Because the wood was weakend it had no strenght and could be pealed off.
drilling weep holes is what the SOP is with a situation like that , to ensure permeation.even an applied sort of trough to catch run off . sprayed with pam or another release agent . depending on other scenario's i leave alot of screws poking out(epoxy in) to when i go to for the build up with the wood epox. but.......... this is all a judgement calls , you cant beat full replacements . the scenario i pointed out above works well with long member's that are in good condition accept where they sit in a (usually )masonary pockets etc.
but ...hell to each his own........ regards bear"expectations are premeditated resentments"
The Abatron worked just fine. it was the failure to prepare the work by drilling penetration holes that caused the failure of the repair.
Wood does not wick fluids on the side of the grian which is the sheathe of the wood cells. but it wicks fluids up into it just fine from the ends of those cells, like a child sucking a straw at McDonalds. By drilling holes down into the rotted piece of wood, you break the wood cells open and form a sort of dispensor cup at the same time. Something as large as a header could have 3/8" diameter holes.
The consolidant needs to be formulated for the temps at the time of year you do the repair. I has to be thin enough to penetrate.
So I fill each hole with the epoxy and let it flow. I use a syringe (for a big job a turkey baster) so by time I get a dozen or so holes filled, the stuff has bled into the wood and it is time to staart again. patience is the key. As long as it keeps wicking in, I keep filing.
Then you give it the required amt oif time recommended on the label to cure before mixing the filler to apply to the top. That can take a couple of coats. If ity is finish work, you have some carving and samding to do too. Catching it at just the right timne saves a lot of four letter words
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I have used epoxy forumlations several times to repair various rot problems in wood. If the problem was confined to the end of the joist near where it rested on the foundation, I would have no hesitation to use an epoxy repair. Near the center of the joist, however, would be a different matter.
If the rot is confined to a fairly narrow and uniform strip, you might cut the area off and consider a "dutchman" (which, if I am using the term correctly, is a slice of wood the size and shape of what was removed) and securing it with regular epoxy from the hardware store. If the area is more irregular and extensive, then you might want to consider treating the area with penetrating epoxy. I used penetrating epoxy from http://www.rotdoctor.com and also some from West Marine, which may only be available from West Marine stores. Even if you don't buy their product, you would probably find the repair information on the RotDoctor site to be helpful.
It is West Systems Epoxy from Gougeon Brothers, Inc. and West Marine stores.
To different companies.
The penetrating epoxy that I last used was made by West Marine, not by West Systems. I made the mistake a couple of months ago of not reading the labels correctly and stated on Breaktime that West Systems Epoxy made a penetrating epoxy when I was really talking about the West Marine penetrating epoxy. It appears that West Systems Epoxy does not make a penetrating epoxy. I did like the West Marine penetrating epoxy, however.
To get back to more or less the original thread, last month I was in Jackson Tennessee with a church group repairing tornado damage. The house we were working on (rebuilding, for the most part) had pretty bad rot under the threshold, and the floor was sagging there as well. We cut out the flooring as wide as the doorway and about 18" back. Found the sill and rim joist pretty much disintegrated in the area, and a floor joist coming in right at the middle of the doorway had pretty bad rot on the end.
Really should have replaced the entire front sill, but this was "meatball surgery", so pieced in a new sill and rim joist section through the hole (concrete steps blocked access from the outside). Cut away most of the rot on the floor joist (was primarily on the bottom edge) and shimmed it up and sistered on blocks on each side, then added blocking between the problem joist and the two adjacent ones.
When we got it all back together it was rock solid and probably good for another 20 years.