Replies

1. 
   MikeSmith | May 25, 2008 12:11am | #1

   we're on our third  house this year.... all built in the '80's:

     bad flashing details.. white cedar shingle siding... Tyvek

   many holes  rotted thru the tyvek, whereever water could get thru the shingles

   lot's of rot at bottoms of window sill corners

   lots of rot in corner board  areas

   builders used no splines... just tyvek

   junk....

   i did one house with tyvek in the '80's... have used only 15 lb & 30 lb. felt since

   my opinion is that the stories about water and tannic acid are absolutely true

   Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
1. 
   whimalar | May 25, 2008 12:15am | #2

   I think there's going to be a disaster with this stuff. Millions of homes are built with this stuff and here in Mass. you have to use some type of building wrap. I only use felt paper but most use Tyvek. Pretty scary.
   Whimalar

2. 
   Jim_Allen | May 25, 2008 12:16am | #3

   They don't like Tyvek down here in Austin either. I'm never using it again. I'm switching to 15# felt. When would I need 30#? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07

1. 
   whimalar | May 25, 2008 12:24am | #4

   I use 15# on side walls. You could go with 30# on roof. Usually use it with cedar and slate.
   Whimalar

2. 
   IMERC | May 25, 2008 12:27am | #5

   guess nobody has found the Tyvek only flashed windows and doors yet... 

   Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->

   WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

3. 
   Piffin | May 25, 2008 12:44am | #6

   "When would I need 30#?"When the wind blose... 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   MarkH | May 25, 2008 01:03am | #8

   Do you hang 30lb felt on sidewalls on the southside on a blazing hot full sun day? That stuff is hard to work with, especially since I mostly work alone. I like 15lb myself.

1. 
   Piffin | May 25, 2008 01:14am | #9

   I normally will use the 15# 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

2. 
   MarkH | May 25, 2008 01:33am | #10

   15lb saves a few bucks over 30lb for us impoverished DIY too. I suspect felt is going to shoot up in price due to the high oil prices.

3. 
   BillHartmann | May 25, 2008 01:55am | #11

   Per sq ft 30 lb is almost exactly twice the price of 15..
   .
   A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.

4. 
   Piffin | May 25, 2008 02:04am | #12

   It is far less connected than it once was. They use about 40% of the asphalt in tarpaper that they used to. 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

4. 
   JDRHI | May 25, 2008 02:10am | #13

   Jim,

   If you suspect the felt will be exposed to the elements for a lengthy period of time.....wind more than anything else....you might consider 30# over 15 for sidewalls.

   But if you'll be buttoning up with the siding immediately after, 15# will suffice. Same with the roof, although I do tend to go with 30# on roofs with lesser pitch.

   Aint used Tyvek since I stopped working for others.

   J. D. Reynolds

   Home Improvements

    

    

    

5. 
   Pelipeth | May 25, 2008 03:15am | #14

   Just easier to work with, doesn't tear as easily.

2. 
   sisyphus | May 25, 2008 12:57am | #7

   Thank you for the heads up.

   There is nothing like the passage of time to determine the viability of a product.

3. 
   Pelipeth | May 25, 2008 03:21am | #15

   Depends on how old the house is, they have changed the receipe of todays Tyvek. Early years your gonna have rot. I've made alot of money repairing homes with Tyvek Rot. I have never used the product myself, but then I never built the whole box.

1. 
   whimalar | May 25, 2008 04:04am | #16

   I hope so because as you say, there's a problem with the early stuff.
   Around here everyone uses it pretty much exclusively.

2. 
   DelawareDave61 | May 25, 2008 04:50am | #17

   "Depends on how old the house is, they have changed the receipe of todays Tyvek."-- Do you know how much Tyvek has improved? I just had an addition put on to my house and the GC insisted that Tyvek was all that was needed.

1. 
   iluvgear | May 25, 2008 04:57am | #18

   I recall an article about a year ago in JLC about a home in VT with this problem.  Suffice to say the repair was extensive.  I would recomend the article to anyone encountering this problem.

2. 
   Pelipeth | May 25, 2008 01:16pm | #22

   When Tyvek first came on the scene, my buddy, who I feel is one of the better builders in the entire Northeast, ran his own tests at his home. Filling sections with water, putting steam through it, and many more of whatever he could think of. End result, he stayed with tar paper for many more years. FHB - JLC - and I believe TOH all had articles on Tyvek and similar products, comparison tests etc. some done by colleges, very independent stuff (tests). In the big picture it was felt that why not stick with something that is proven TP; or even Red Rosin paper, that's what my house had for 80yrs. At this point in my life I only do repairs or 1 or 2 sections of a home, (sideing) and have only used TP. When anyone I know is doing an addition or building a new box I tell them to spec. TP, for whatever reason though there GC always seems to win out with the Tyvek.

1. 
   DelawareDave61 | May 25, 2008 03:14pm | #23

   "At this point in my life I only do repairs or 1 or 2 sections of a home, (sideing) and have only used TP"-- Thank you for the perspective. Now that the addition is built, do you think it would make sense to go right back and flash the windows with TP or leave it alone and then fix over time as issues crop up? Or just wait 20 years or so and flash all of the windows at once?

1. 
   DougU | May 25, 2008 03:41pm | #24

   We're (at work) building a new house, completely stone,mason is adding 30# felt, reflashing every window, every doorway, over everything as he goes, says the tyvek is only there to keep the house dry until he gets there. He says that he's always used felt, said he hasn't seen a product come along that was better.

   Doug

2. 
   IMERC | May 25, 2008 07:45pm | #39

   reapair/reflash the windows before the walls have to to be rebuilt...

   IIRC your windows were flashed only by folding the Tyvek into the RO and installing the window on top of that sans bimitious, metal or even caulk....  

   Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->

   WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

2. 
   Marson | May 25, 2008 03:58pm | #25

   I liken Tyveck to Gortex. A high tech, supposedly breathable, fairly expensive wonder fabric made out of petrochemicals--if you listen to the marketing. Says "the miracle of science" right on the tyveck roll. But what is miraculous about these products? I got a new pair of $200 Gortex boots this winter and my feet are just as clammy as with my old rubber pac boots. Course when I bought them, I saw the tag "Gortex" and just like the ad agencies planned it, the thought ran through my head...must be good, they got Gortex. Bah.I haven't been impressed by the breathability of either. I think these companies spend millions on developing these high tech products, and then spend millions more marketing them to the point where the public just assumes that they are best.

1. 
   dieselpig | May 25, 2008 05:00pm | #27

   I wouldn't throw GorTex under the bus with Tyvek.  If it's not working for you, then you're using it wrong (probably had too heavy a sock on or wore cotton).  I'm not trying to pick on you, but it's the truth.  I was in a USMC ECW (extreme cold weather) unit for awhile..... GoreTex is all that, a bag of chips.... and a pickle.  Still keeps me as comfy as possible while framing in the winter too.View Image

2. 
   Henley | May 25, 2008 06:05pm | #29

   I've probably spent more time in Gore-Tex then is right or proper.
   It is an incredibly tough product, but it's breathability has
   been a joke from the beginning. The minute you start working up a sweat
   your just as wet as if your wearing a plastic bag.
   That's why the outdoor industry has switched to "soft shells". Much
   better breath ability, and they stretch. Only "highly water resistant" tho. That means water will just bead up on it but a driving rain will get through.

   The achilles heal of Gore-Tex is dirt. Once those pores get filled with dirt it no longer breaths and water wicks through. Makes for a
   clammy foot and a leaky jacket.

3. 
   dieselpig | May 25, 2008 06:37pm | #30

   20 degrees North of the Arctic Circle with the Marines.  Ten years framing in New England.... by hey.... whadda I know?  I couple a Gore-Tex shell with polypro underneath.  When I get sweaty I use the ventilation zippers in the crotches and pits and moisture is gone.  As far as the pores getting clogged.... well.... sometimes I actually wash my gear.  ;)  To each his own though.  I like Gore-Tex myself. 

   Now... about that housewrap.......

   View Image

   Edited 5/25/2008 11:37 am ET by dieselpig

4. 
   Bing187 | May 25, 2008 06:52pm | #31

   I say the same thing I said in the thread a few weeks ago about....ok I forgot what it was about.

    Good flashing details, tight clap and shingle fits, and phenoseal.....

   If there are houses that are 50 years old with no water damage to the red rosin paper underneath,( and I'm sure you've seen a few in ten years) then the water is the culprit, not some chemical breakdown of the wrap. Not contradicting Mike S, I do think there may be something to the tannins arguement with the Tyvek, but I think the key to that is there's got to be water getting in somewhere. I've used Typar exclusively under clap for a few years, cause it seems a lot sturdier, and there's no issues with it being exposed to sunlight.

   Nice work in the photo threads btw.

   Bing

5. 
   dieselpig | May 25, 2008 07:54pm | #40

   Good flashing details, tight clap and shingle fits, and phenoseal.....

   There really isn't any substitute for those things, is there?  You may be right that unskilled labor or untrained labor could be as much the culprit as anything else.  I know when I tore the cedar shingles off a WWII era house I used to own, the red rosin paper had few, if any, water stains on it.  With the exception of the toe-kick area of the front door, the sheathing on the house was in beautiful condition.  So I suspect you are very much correct.View Image

6. 
   Marson | May 25, 2008 06:57pm | #33

   I used to be a trapper in Northern MN. Couldn't afford the Goretex. I had an army surplus poplin windbreaker that ruled! I'd put that with a few wool sweaters up against a Goretex shell and polar fleece any day. Polypro long handles were my only nod to technology.

7. 
   dieselpig | May 25, 2008 07:55pm | #41

   I agree Marson.... wool is still king.View Image

8. 
   Henley | May 25, 2008 07:23pm | #38

   Actually I was thinking in terms of the house wrap. I'm just guessing
   but I'd bet it doesn't perform much differently (let alone better).
   While Gore-Tex/Tyvek do breath it doesn't do it all that well.
   And while I'm glad to hear you're up on your personal hygiene ;) I'm talking about ground in mud and what not. Or in the case of house wrap,
   just the crud that accumulates over time as no one cleans it after the siding is on. Another similarity between the two is water the water repellent coating
   As I'm sure you know You need to retreat the Gore-TeX periodically or
   will leak. Surely there is a lifespan on the (Wax I believe) coating of
   Tyvek? We know that Uvs break it down quickly. By the way, I own and use several Gore-Tex thing's not knocking it,
   but talking about it's rather inflated breath ability claims.
   If you haven't -check out the soft shells. I wouldn't want one with out the Gore-tex backup but it gets used far more often now.

9. 
   Piffin | May 25, 2008 08:09pm | #44

   I think the way peoples feet sweat varies a lot person to person. Some like wool socks and it drives others crazy.Call it regional differences. I like goretex or leather, but can't stand rubber and plastics 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

10. 
    Marson | May 25, 2008 06:53pm | #32

    I've tried every sock combination known to man. My feet must sweat more than some peoples.

11. 
    Jim_Allen | May 25, 2008 07:05pm | #37

    Pella and Anderson are a good example of that. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07

4. 
   Gunner | May 25, 2008 05:03am | #19

       Was it installed according to spec? Flashing and all that. Just curious.

       I was blazing down some country road the other day and swear I passed a house that had nothing but Tyvek over the studs. It was one of those deals where it didn't register in my brain until after I was past it. But I know I saw the Tyvek wrapped tight against the studs. If I didn't have to poop so bad I would have turned around and looked closer.

    

    

    

    

    

    

    

     Well, you can tell by the way I use my walk, I'm a woman's man, no time to talk. .
   

    

   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy3LM5_-i1Q&feature=related

1. 
   dieselpig | May 25, 2008 05:16am | #20

   LOL....View Image

1. 
   dieselpig | May 25, 2008 05:18am | #21

   What about Typar?  Anybody seeing/hearing about the same issues?  Typar seems to be a much tougher product.  That's just my opinion from handling the two products a good deal.  Believe it or not, I don't have any science to back that statement up.  LOL...

   Seriously though... thoughts on Typar?View Image

1. 
   cargin | May 25, 2008 04:23pm | #26

   dieselpig

   Tyvek has a perm rating of 59, Typar has a rating of 11.7. Plastic is 0.

   Typar is better under cedar siding and yes I think it is tougher.

   FHB article on house wraps is at the link below.

   http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/how-to/articles/making-sense-of-housewraps.aspx

   I have questions.

   1. With the rot behind Tvyek.

       How long was it exposed to the sunlight before it was cover?

       Flashing details around windows and doors have been greatly stressed only in the last 3 - 5 years. Tvyek just did a seminar in our lumberyard last year and it was completely new stuff to most guys. I saw an article in JLC a couple of years ago on properly flashing a window, and that was the first I had seen in print.

       Most new construction guys around here are pretty lax about taping their seams. If it is on the wall it is good enough.

   2.  With tar paper. Do you guys double layer it like we would do on a roof under shakes or tile? Top sheet covers a little more than 1/2 the bottom sheet.

   3. 80 year old rosin paper is always bunched up. Like it dried out and shrunc to 1/2 of it's orginal size.

   Diesel. I just posted to you because of the Typar, but the questions are for all.

   Rich

     

1. 
   dieselpig | May 25, 2008 05:00pm | #28

   Thanks for the info Cargin.View Image

2. 
   BillHartmann | May 25, 2008 07:03pm | #35

   QuestionWas this house flashed and tyvek installed by the same crew that TIED to do Gunners house untill they where run out of town on a rail?.
   .
   A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.

3. 
   Piffin | May 25, 2008 08:04pm | #43

   to keep the comparisons all there on that, include tarpaper, which varies from 5-15 depending on weight and brand and time left exposed.Meaning that Typar is in the same range as tarpaper as far as perm ratings.

   Welcome to the
   Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
   where ...
   Excellence is its own reward!

   Edited 5/25/2008 1:13 pm ET by Piffin

2. 
   Jim_Allen | May 25, 2008 07:03pm | #36

   We prefer Typar.It's significantly tougher material. Easier to work with. Less annoying noise. It doesn't buzz...which can happen inside an overhang with Tyvek. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07

3. 
   reinvent | May 26, 2008 04:19pm | #63

   Some more to chew onhttp://forums.jlconline.com/forums/printthread.php?t=24261http://www.umass.edu/bmatwt/publications/articles/housewraps_feltpaper_weather_penetration_barriers.html

2. 
   Jim_Allen | May 25, 2008 07:02pm | #34

   Too much information in that post. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07

1. 
   Gunner | May 25, 2008 08:01pm | #42

        Yea.  But we've all been there.

    

    

    

    

    

    

    

     Well, you can tell by the way I use my walk, I'm a woman's man, no time to talk. .

    

   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy3LM5_-i1Q&feature=related

3. 
   Marson | May 25, 2008 09:00pm | #45

   You remember Riversong? Didn't he put tyveck straight on studs and pine drop siding over that?

1. 
   cargin | May 25, 2008 11:59pm | #46

   Marson

   You're right.

   BT was fun while he was around.

   Rich

1. 
   Bing187 | May 26, 2008 02:56am | #47

   I built a barn/shop for myself last summer...typar over studs with board 'n batten pine. Why not?

   Bing

1. 
   Piffin | May 26, 2008 02:57am | #48

   Why did you use studs? 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

2. 
   doodabug | May 26, 2008 03:03am | #49

   A place to store all the tall skinny stuff.

3. 
   Bing187 | May 26, 2008 03:28am | #50

   It's sort of a hybrid, I guess. Could have gone bigger members and furthur apart, with purlins for nailing the b+b to, but one of the concerns was insulation...not familiar with a way to insulate the big spaces created bybeams at 4 or 5' o.c. and purlins every 2 or 3'. I'm sure there is a way, I just wasn't sure of a relatively easy way to do it, as opposed to fiberglass batts.

   The barn is 36 x 26. I framed the walls 12' high ( want to put a lift in there eventually) and put blocking every 30" for nailers. Notched let in braces diagonally at both ends each wall.Two steel beams span the 26'. Floor 2x10 16" o.c., blocked at mid span. Mansard roof, with scissor trusses for the upper roof, so the ceiling ends up about 10' at the center. Ends up a 36 x 20 room, hopefully with bar ( already have pool table ) Full set of stairs from below.

   I have a friend who wants a virtually identical building coming up in the fall, and we'll probly go with all native lumber from the sawmill where I got the b+b. Any suggestions?

   Bing 

4. 
   Jim_Allen | May 26, 2008 12:52pm | #53

   I agree...why not? Did you add some shear bracing to it...maybe some let-ins? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07

5. 
   Bing187 | May 27, 2008 03:29am | #69

   Yup, diagonal let ins notched into 2x's

6. 
   Jim_Allen | May 27, 2008 07:33am | #70

   I built my Mom's garage like that back in the 70's. Its still standing. Oh...no felt either..on the walls or roof. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07

2. 
   Gunner | May 26, 2008 06:23am | #51

      Where did he go?

    

    

    

    

    

    

    

     Well, you can tell by the way I use my walk, I'm a woman's man, no time to talk. .

    

   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy3LM5_-i1Q&feature=related

1. 
   Marson | May 26, 2008 02:23pm | #55

   I've seen his posts over at JLC Building Science, but much less frequently.

1. 
   Gunner | May 26, 2008 02:39pm | #56

       Cool. Never paid too much attention to his posts. Too argumentive.

    

    

    

    

    

    

    

     Well, you can tell by the way I use my walk, I'm a woman's man, no time to talk. .

    

   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy3LM5_-i1Q&feature=related

2. 
   Marson | May 26, 2008 02:42pm | #57

   Yeah, I hate to admit it, but he had some good ideas that I might find myself using sometime, especially if someone comes along who wants to build a double walled house.

3. 
   Matt | May 26, 2008 04:04pm | #60

   I think he is a super knowledgeable guy but to the point of being a F-ing know it all.   Some months ago we had a discussion (that I started) about if sheathing should be flush with foundation or 1/2" proud.  Seemed to come out to be personal preference.  He stated some compelling arguments for his viewpoint but when someone went and poked a few holes in the statements, he went back and edited his text...  Or at least that was it looked like to me.  Maybe I'm wrong.

   Some years ago there was a guy here named Freddy.  Quite knowledgeable in his area of expertise.  Only problem was that everyone else was just wrong.   He actually ended up taking the time to go through and delete all his posts before leaving.  Took all his toys and went home - as it were. :-)

   RS is/was a very valuable contributor but didn't seem to have anything to learn.  Also, I had to wonder how many homes he was/had really built.

   Maybe part of this deal here is that if you don't have something to learn, your really not a viable part of the "community"... 

4. 
   Marson | May 26, 2008 04:13pm | #61

   No disagreement here, Matt. I think you are right on. One thing I'm really not into is personal attacks, flames, know it alls, etc. I'm here for one reason: infotainment.

5. 
   mmoogie | May 26, 2008 04:25pm | #64

   Matt,

   Yeah, Fred definitely has some personality problems, as does Riversong, but both are very knowledgeable people. Too bad they can't just get along, as Rodney King would say. Fred pretty much dragged the breaktimers kicking and screaming into the world of dense-packed cellulose. Though there are still a few resisters, they too will soon come to realize resistance is futile;-)

   Here's a picture of Fred and I on a job in Cohasset MA that we worked on together. He was a lot of fun in person, unless he decided you were an enemy, then he could get pretty vicious. Fred is on the left.

   Steve

   View Image

6. 
   Matt | May 26, 2008 04:35pm | #65

   Is that pic recent?

7. 
   mmoogie | May 26, 2008 04:38pm | #66

   From Jan 2000

8. 
   Matt | May 27, 2008 01:35pm | #71

   personality problems....  Yea, and here I violated the golden rule of "criticize ideas, not people".  Must be a personality problem...  oops...  Nobody is perfect. :-)

9. 
   Gunner | May 26, 2008 04:14pm | #62

      Kind of like Rush Limbaugh. He might be right but I can't get past his personality to find out.

    

    

    

    

    

    

    

     Well, you can tell by the way I use my walk, I'm a woman's man, no time to talk. .

    

   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy3LM5_-i1Q&feature=related

5. 
   user-144646 | May 26, 2008 09:23am | #52

   I pulled out all the lath and plaster and also resided my 1915 house in seattle so I got to inspect the framing from both sides. I found no rot what so ever. all with 15# felt. When it came time to choose again I went with the felt.

   Dave E.

6. 
   rez | May 26, 2008 12:54pm | #54

   Seems the pendulum of popular opinion has swung a bit after the last 3 years.

   Here's an old thread dealing with the same from back in '05.  63362.1

    

    

    be somebody go find Dr.Dan and Framer .

   
   

   ---

   Edited 5/26/2008 10:37 am ET by rez

1. 
   john7g | May 26, 2008 02:56pm | #58

   uhmmm.. Rez?  That link is to this thread...  kinda current.

1. 
   rez | May 26, 2008 05:39pm | #67

   man, how'd that happen?

   Note: Post addressed has been edited with correct link.

    

   don't be a kinked link 

1. 
   mmoogie | May 26, 2008 05:44pm | #68

   that happened to me once too. I think it has to do with the different "frames" in the html rendering of this page. Depends where you last clicked, I think. You can be looking at one frame, and the URL that's in the adress bar can be from the parent frame. But I'm just talking out my arse...Steve

2. 
   DougU | May 26, 2008 03:23pm | #59

   Yea rez, what John says!