Seems like I have a picky client. I think my crew does a fine job. I know that there is a publication of industry standards (for rough framing). Does anybody know about this.?Is a 9′ wall an 1/8″ out of plumb unacceptable? Dimensional lumber can vary up to 1/4″ . Should I plane and join every stud? Let me know whay you think.
Dave
Hover's smartphone app offers an easier way to get precise 3D scans.
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.
Start Free Trial NowGet instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.
Start Free Trial Now
Replies
Seems like you have a picky client!
like the guy that climbed up on a roof years back ... building a new roof over an old deck and off and even older house ...
he told me my "diagonals" were off by 1/4" .... "way outta square" ...
this roof was 15ft deep and 40ft long ...
I said ... Thanks for the compliment! I never thot I'd get her that close!
Then .. for kicks ... while he helped ... we pulled again ... it was close to 1/8th!
Told him not to feel bad though ... that was all pure luck!
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Never thought I'd hear you admit to hack work Jeff. ;)
there's a time and place for everything!
remember ... I grew up remodeling lotsa "rental-rehabs" ...
I got lotsa old tricks and bad habits!
which ... come in handy from time to time ... years ago working with a cab-maker ... he was fighting with the solid cherry raised panel wainscot .... there was a bad bow in the wall he didn't account for ... he starts talking about getting the router and hoping to hog out the backside w/o making her too thin ... I ask ...
Uh .. this piece is pretty much "permanent", huh? He says ... Uh .. yeah.. why.
so out comes the old estwing ... held sideways .. and I blow a huge hole in the "antique" plaster. He's busy fitting the big piece of wainscot on as he's yelling to clean all that up before the owner/designer and architect make their way back upstairs!
turned out nice. Fit real good ...
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Nicely done. Same thing with casing an out-of-plane opening.
An old timey remodeler once told me his job was to figure out how to hold up the paint. ;)
Same thing with casing an out-of-plane opening.
block of wood and a sledge?
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
20# minimum.
Tell your client to go find you some straight to zero tolerance studs & you'll re-frame it?
Joe H
When I framed, we tried to get plus or minus 1/4" from plumb. Like you say, with all the variables with lumber, it's hard to get much closer except by accident.
when I framed a 1/4" to plumb was considered a miracle
"Strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold"
Ganjo, your client is being unreasonable, but if the wall is only 1/8" out of plumb, it seems like it would be very easy to move it and make him happy. I've rarely run into things that I couldn't move an eighth.
Each locality has their own standards. I think that we are allowed 3/8 out of plumb in 8' by code here. In most cases I'm happy with plumb, but I wouldn't worry about 3/8" unless I was close to a piece of trim or cabinets.
Which code governs you?
blue
stop talking outta yer a$$ Blue ...
you frame for speed ... with pride!
You'd no sooner move a wall an 1/8th than you'd not pin back your blade guard.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Stop trying to tell me how I do my business Jeff.
I ALWAYS bang the wall over the eighth when I see it. Like I said, it only takes one whack. Why wouldn't I bang it over?
I personally checked every corner on the current house we are on. I banged all but one plumb to where the bubble was in the middle. One one corner, I had to leave it outside of perfect, but acceptable. I couldn't find any reason why it was out of plumb and no matter what I did, something was going to be wrong.
And No, I would never pin back the guard! The first thing I do with my new saws is eliminate it entirely. I do that becuase I can then get my saw in tighter and flatter with less drag.
Jeff, I learned a long time ago that it is much faster to build things accurately.
blue
Whatever the customer is willing to pay for.
If he wants it to be plumb... I can make it plumb... for a price. 1/8 out of plumb is within acceptable tolerance, IMO. But if he wants it absolutely plumb... I will get 2x6 in a higher-grade and plane and cut'em to spec... he/she is the customer.... and he/she pays the bills. I will also explain that I will want him/her to check my work immediately after I put it up... for tomorrow it will have moved and/or twisted (in most cases).
I guess the first question is whether it can be brought into plumb with a sledge and a few nails (or a screw or three) If that is all that it takes... I do it gratis (good customer relations). If it has to be rebuilt... it is a change order. Thus the concept of ROUGH framing.
Now... when I hang the drywall and finish it... I am trying like the dickens to bring the final product into "as plumb as possible". Along with "as straight as possible", while making the necessary adjustments. That can be tricky, sometimes (understatement of the year). Quite frankly... with today's materials... if the final product is within 1/8... I am pleased... but I would probably fiddle with it a little more to try to get it closer (I am retentive that way).
Your customer has a bad idea of what tolerances are possible with framing lumber. Regardless of workmanship, achieving tolerances better than those of your materials requires that you make your materials better (i.e. the jointer AND tablesaw).
But why would you bother? As the remaining moisture comes out of your material, all your freshly jointed studs would just find a new shape anyway! Or does this guy expect you to tear it down and start over again if it ever rains before you get the place dried in?!
Kitchen and bath walls...those that might get tiled or have cabinets/built-ins? Yeah, get those spot-on.
But as you wrote, tomorrow they might not be. Wood is wood, and it moves.
Then you always have the drywall crew that comes in and feathers the corners and joints, and in the process, introducing humps and bumps into the wall. If required those walls can be skim coated to maintain plane.
One lead framer I worked with used to say "this ain't ROUGH framing". I always try to get it plumb and level because it can magnify the problem down the line. I also tell the clients "hey I don't grow the trees I just put em in best I can"
So 1/8" in 9 foot tall wall should be acceptable. Tell them if that was on the horizontal like in plumbing then we would have a problem because the sh#t would be backing up.
Edited 8/11/2005 3:34 pm ET by jeffwoodwork
Man, I just finished framing my 8 foot square well house today with 8 foot high walls . An eighth in 9 feet - great! call it done and move on. Seriously, I'm not a framer but I am an engineer and to me an eighth in 9 feet would be great - you are not building furniture - right?
Nothing like doing some framing yourself to give an appreciation of how good you guys are. Square remains an elusive concept to me - which is odd, because I can lay the block foundation beneath the frame dead square, plumb and level.
It's not cool to tick customer's off, but if they want that level of accuracy, they should be willing to pay for the materials and time it would take to get there.
Just my $ .02
The way I remember hearing it said is,
<!----><!---->
“If you had wanted perfect wood you would have left it in the forest.”
<!---->
So much for the rest of the perfectly plumb wood………on the perfectly round planet.
"This aint the piano, it's the crate it came in."