I have a question about the opening page of fine homebuilding with the advice on framing a door opening. Why is the header not against the top plate. If you need a header that is 2×8 it is more than likely structural. I see nothing structural about the way he framed it. Headers are always put against the top plate, it make it easier for re and re when the homeowner changes the window or door opening.
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Replies
"Headers are always put against the top plate"
Not for me -- I only do that it it's too close close to the plate for cripples. I, for one, expect a header within an inch or two above the top of the window and that's what I shoot for when fixing DW & trim later.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
I see nothing structural about the way he framed it.
Why isn't it structural with cripples above the header? The cripples pick up the load from the joists above the header. I can frame a dropped header on a 10' wall with a 3-1/2" lvl above and put 3 cripples underneath that to support the lvl. Nothing wrong with that at all.
Headers are always put against the top plate, it make it easier for re and re when the homeowner changes the window or door opening.
Only on 8' walls they are for me. 9' and 10' and above walls, the headers are always framed at the correct height. If there is an issue about a window or door, the header will go to the top plate and frame down. You use more lumber when you frame with the header at the plate.
With the header at the correct height, you just nail cripples above. With the header at the plate height you are nailing cripples and the bottom piece whether you use a single or double bottom piece.
If you look at the picture there is no studs at each end just one in the middle and one off to one side a bit which has to do with his stud spacing I guess. I don't see how you would use more material if it is at the top you still need to put studs above or below the header. So you say you are attaching your drywall and trim to the header so then you pack your header out to the inside face of the wall and therefore you have no insulation. My understanding of a header is to take any loads above and transfer those loads across the header and transfer those loads down the cripples to the foundation wall so if you had a concentrated load say in the middle of the header above you would then have to put a stud pack between the plates and the top of the header. Seem like more work. I guess it is a matter of framing preferences. There is nothing wrong with either way.
I'm not a framer, but I'll take a stab,The header does transfer loads, from the cripples above the header to the JACK studs. There needs to be no cripples below the header. If they were there (your method) more lumber is used, as now you need a horizontal member above the opening (at the bottom of your cripples) to attach the door/window/whatever and drywall/plaster/etc.If there is a concentrated load on the header, then size your header properly, but the load is still transferred to the jack studs at the ends of the header. For a low header (one at the window) the extra studs will be at the load point. For a high header, the studs will now be extra jack studs. You will still have the same number of studs carrying the concentrated load to the bottom plate. Framing preference is to put the header at the object so trim/curtains/draperies can be hung without using special drywall hardware, exactly where the homeowner wants them to be, not determined by stud layout.Around here headers are not insulated, but one can build insulated headers or buy them premade.Frank DuVal
I don't see how you would use more material if it is at the top you still need to put studs above or below the header.
I think what Framer was saying is that yeah, either way you have a header and short studs, but if the header is at the plate, you also have a horizontal 2x4 at the r.o., which is why there's more lumber there.
And incidentally, people still frame with 4x12 header stock out here occasionally. That's the original "California Framing". saves time, but just painful in terms of materials and thermal bridging. Still happens, though.
k
It CAN be easier to put headers against the top plate, but they are certainly NOT always done that way.
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I agree with you and I am not saying that in every case that they should go next to the top plate. As to what FrankDuVal said, what I call cripples you call jack studs. In building custom homes lots of homeowners always change there mind so inevitably you end up ripping walls apart.
Edited 1/23/2009 7:24 pm by silvertip
Jack studs
King studs
Header
and cripples What is your name for cripples ?
>>what I call cripples you call jack studs<<
?????????
My terminology:
"Jack stud" - a continuous, wall thickness stud which is fastened to the side of the king stud - the header ends bear on the top of the jack studs which provide the header support. Sometimes doubled or tripledvdepending upon open span of the header. In some parts of the country referred to as a "trimmer stud".
"Cripple" - shorter, wall thickness wood members, generally running between the top plate and the top of the header. Serve to transfer vertical loads between the top plate and the header. Or, can run between the bottom of a window sill and the bottom plate. We refer to these two situations as "top cripples" and "bottom cripples" or "upper" and "lower".
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
I find your terminology offensive. They are not cripples they are studs with disabilities. I'll reserve judgement until I get my copy of FHB but I must say framing rough openings doesn't sound too promising for a magazine on fine homebuilding.
Edited 1/23/2009 8:47 pm ET by fingersandtoes
"They are not cripples they are studs with disabilities. " ROFL !! ;o)And I find 'grandfather clause' to be a sexist term .... should be grandparented!
Jeff
Edited 1/24/2009 9:08 am ET by Jeff_Clarke
Are we playing with a deck of cards where is the stud for queen. It is a matter of terminology separted by a border. What you call jack studs we call cripples and cripples are nailed to studs. There is nothing special about the 2x material that the cripple (jack/trimmer) is nailed to so why give it a name. Go to your local lumber yard and ask for king studs, will they look at you weirdly.
Mine would give me a picture of Elvis.http://www.tvwsolar.com
I went down to the lobby
To make a small call out.
A pretty dancing girl was there,
And she began to shout,
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He can move you from the rear,
Drive you from your fear,
Bring you through the mirror.
He did it in Las Vegas,
And he can do it here."
LMFAO!!
Jack studs around her are called laps, where that came from, I have no idea.
What do you call cripples? What I am asking is not the jacks that you refere to as cripples, but the cripples that framer and I call cripples.
jack stud... aka trimmer....
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I'm currently finishing the framing on a 12,000 sq ft. addition 12,000 added on to 1000.
recently the home owner got his hands on a custom door catalogue. All different shapes and sizes.
I am so glad we framed all the headers at the tops of the walls. It Would be miserable changing all of them.
12k sq ft!!!!! Must be some kind of grandfather clause where they can add on whatever they want, but can't build a "new" house?
Oh ya! Could have , should have.
Old house attached to the side is an eye sore.
Very eccentric though.
$ 70,000 just for windows.
I call Jack stud the support for the header ... maybe also referred to as a trimmer.
King stud is a full stud. Cripples simply fill in the blanks above the header.
Personally, I don't use headers on non bearing walls ... or at least minimize them ... this enables maximum insulation. But there are various ways to accomplish the same and preferences to accomodate trim (int and ext), etc. I had a BO say that I have the weight of the wall to worry about above a window (not a roof load), but he couldn't force me to use headers ... cause structural theory says it is a non issue.
I was with you, until I got to this.....
>>Personally, I don't use headers on non bearing walls ... or at least minimize them ... this enables maximum insulation. But there are various ways to accomplish the same and preferences to accomodate trim (int and ext), etc. I had a BO say that I have the weight of the wall to worry about above a window (not a roof load), but he couldn't force me to use headers ... cause structural theory says it is a non issue.<<
Please elaborate.
Especially your definition of a "non-bearing wall" and who a "BO" is.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Probably what he means by a "non-structural wall" is a gable wall, typically with a gable truss above. I have left those out before per the plans, to increase insulation. Technically, there still is a header (one or two 2x,s flatwise), though it is not load bearing. They can be left out, though since I seldom build anymore but supervise people, it's hard too convince carps they can be left out. Also, in two story houses with sawn rims, the first floor headers could probably be left out.I imagine by BO he means building official. My building inspectors, PITA as they are, never even glance at headers.
Non Bearing wall - e.g. gable end wall w/ no floor/roof loads imposed on it. On my windows ... typically 3ft wide, I simply installed a 2x6 flat. The BO is the inspector/building official ... and before you think he was a slacker ... quite the opposite. A professional builder himself and the office was known to be pretty tight about requirements ... he made me engineer a couple of the components of the house structure (which I complied with).
That's what I thought you meant, just checking.
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
I've heard header at the top plate is described as 'California Framing' before.
I too like doing it that way if I can, but cripples provide the same structural capacity. Doesn't matter where the header is, as long as it's there and the loads are transferred by cripple studs--or by continuous contact.
I think it's easier to put the header at the top plate.
How do you guys mark yer plates? The guy who taught me most of what I know taught me to mark "K" for king and "T" for trimmer. Now I've been working with guys who mark "X" for king (like any other stud" and "O" for the trimmer or jack.
"X" for stud, "J" for jacks (runs from header to bottom plate, nailed to stud) "C" for cripple (from header to top plate or window sill to bottom plate). Reminds me of an instructor at the trade school I went to who liked headers against the top plate. Got in trouble when someone walking down the hall overheard him saying that he "wasn't fond of cripples!"
X for studs, K for king, T for Trimmer and C for Cripple--there will usually be a "C" with a crow's foot (arrow) thru it for the center of the opening too.
I don't do lots of framing... but all it takes is one mistake to perk up your attention and label more clearly for the future.
I never mark the cripples on the plates. I first put on all the 16 OC studs, then the kings and trimmers. I'd have to cross out the x's on the crips. I have enough erasures as it is!
The way I was taught was to mark all 16" O/C then find center points of windows/doors. Measure off of center point both ways for the R/O of window or door, mark C for cripple(s) and then an X for the studs. On the plates I write the door or window R/O on the plates this way the cut guy can cut the appropriate stud package for it.
Much as I was taught. Except the kings are a K. Why differentiate the cripples? Keep them on lay out and mark with an X.
We mark all critical dimensions first: doors, windows, tees (energy tees), posts... x for kings, J for jacks.Then, we lay out studs with an x... crips are the same as studs.Makes for a whole lot less amount of crossed out confusing marks. http://www.tvwsolar.com
I went down to the lobby
To make a small call out.
A pretty dancing girl was there,
And she began to shout,
"Go on back to see the gypsy.
He can move you from the rear,
Drive you from your fear,
Bring you through the mirror.
He did it in Las Vegas,
And he can do it here."
I learned that up in Pa. Must be our Amish showing (G)Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
x for stud and o for jack
I layout all three plates, shoe and two top plates all together and mark 16" center for the studs drawing a plumb line on all three plates and just making an angled mark on the side the studs go on. After that I transfer those marks right across the top plates and those are the joist marks. Window and door layouts get marked with an X for the king studs and an O for the jack studs. In between those king and jack marks I put an O for the window jacks.
This way no one can make a mistake and nail studs in between these marks if they don't see the X/O mark for a larger window and door.
Joe Carola
I like the stud line, with the 45degree indicator line. Thanks, I just got faster.
I like the stud line, with the 45degree indicator line.
It's just a quick angled sloppy line with my pencil. The drawing makes it look pretty like I used a square.
Joe Carola
How do you get them thru the printer? (G)Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
I like that angled mark thing. I got a buddy who makes a crow's foot, and instead of making a separate "x", he makes one slash through one of the toes of the crow's foot to indicate the side of the mark the stud goes on. Kind of slick and quick. I'd adopt it but I don't frame much these days.Another kind of unique thing I've seen is when framing doors in interior walls, I know a guy who leaves his jacks out. Then he cuts the bottom plate out with his worm drive with the shoe running against the king stud, which leaves him with a stub of 1 1/2" sticking out, which is just enough for his jack stud. To each his own, I say.
I like that angled mark thing.
It's a quick angled mark, no square.
Another kind of unique thing I've seen is when framing doors in interior walls, I know a guy who leaves his jacks out. Then he cuts the bottom plate out with his worm drive with the shoe running against the king stud, which leaves him with a stub of 1 1/2" sticking out, which is just enough for his jack stud. To each his own, I say.
That is the quickest way if you run the shoe through the openings., I don't do that. All the shoes stop at all openings when laying them down after snapping lines and marking the door openings.
Joe Carola
That is the quickest way if you run the shoe through the openings., I don't do that. All the shoes stop at all openings when laying them down after snapping lines and marking the door openings.
That seemed odd to me at first, then I realized you guys up there toenail everything right? So you don't nail it off layig flat, then stand it up.? Other wise the J/K 's would be likely to get outta plane?Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
K and J. C for Cripples.And as per Larry Haun (sp?) regular studs get a single flick of the pencil, not an x. All those extra pencil strokes add up dontcha know...gotta charge extra for 'em.And non-bearing walls get double 2x on the flat so there is enough meat there for wider trim.and I'll inject another question. When laying out an external wall, do you lay out for the sheet goods on the outside or the inside? I'm assuming outside. And clockwise or counter clockwise? Or matching layout on opposite parallel walls.Can you tell I'm not a framer? Nine times out of ten I'm piecing in a retrofit one stud at a time in some crufty old rats nest...the laser plumb bob is my friend.Steve
Edited 1/24/2009 11:18 pm by mmoogie
The layout is for the exterior sheet goods. Heck with the rockers. They'll be inside warm and dry, so they can cut their sheets.I usually layout from one end or another so the floor joists or whatever line up with the studs. This isn't a structural thing, it just helps out the subs. The end walls aren't laid out any one way. Might be right to left if the sheathing pile is on the right, or vice versa.Have you seen Larry Huan's video, "framing walls?" I watched it once. He restarted his layout every time he came to a king stud or whatever that wasn't on layout. Weird. I know he was using board sheathing, but still the few studs you'd save don't seem to be worth it.