RRP Rule – Does it apply to garages?
BryanKlakamp
| Posted in Construction Techniques on
My neighbor has an old detached garage that has lead paint on it.
He hired a guy to clean and paint it who is not a contractor. He has no clue about the RRP Rule.
He used a high pressure sprayer to blow the paint off of the garage, and he used no tarps, so paint chips are everywhere.
The neighbors garage is less than 20 feet from my house, and we will end up tracking lead paint chips into our house.
My question is: Does the RRP Rule apply to garages and other outbuildings? Is there a minimum distance away from a residence?
The instructor at the class I attended said barns were excluded. I did not ask him about detached garages.
Thanks for your responses.
Bryan
Replies
Might want to give a call to your local building department... this guy just laced your property with a known hazerdous substance. It needs to be properly cleaned up.
Bryan
Well, that's a good question you asked.
I don't have time to read the entire legislation and cannot answer it like I really knew what I was talking about.
But, I would sure think that it would cover a garage-a part of a residence, although not attached.
Then again, what about the shed?
You can bet if it doesn't cover it, it sure as hell should. That is if the direction of the laws are toward real protection of inhabitants of dwellings and to those neighbors surrounding said dwelling.
After you do an official inquiry, would you please come back and fill us in.
thanks.
if that happened in RI, one phone call to the state would have an enforcement officer there in 15 minutes
.. lucky for the owner, the dude used a water spray... so the air-borne damage is mitigated..
but the clean-up will be astounding
Link to EPA rules
Hi! Here's a link to the EPA rules for the answer to your question. http://www.zipwall.com/pdfs/EPA-Program.pdf
I don't suppose you could narrow it down a little.............
to be less than read all 79 pages?
That would be a help. Otherwise, common sense would have led Bryan to read the whole shelonga.
That's right Calvin!
I was hoping to find someone who has worked on a detached garage or knows what the RRP Rule states regarding them.
Sure, I could read/scan all of the EPA regs until I find it. Of course, then I would have to interpret what the gov. says. You know what that can be like sometimes.
I just want to know so that I can "threaten" the neighbor so he will clean up all the paint in my stone driveway. If it was paved, It would have been easy to clean up, and I probably would have done it myself.
Can you see me vacuuming my driveway with my Fein vacuum?
Yeah, right!
It's a poor answer, but what does the epa have in Findlay?
Any kind of office in that area? Even if they specialized in something else, they might be able to call the "right" person and come up with an answer.
Personally, if it isn't a part of the regs, then it should be.
How far is the bldg from his dwelling? Might fall in the perimeter of the regulations guidelines. If they want you to protect it that far away, then it stands to reason that if it's in that space, it should need to be protected.
You might be able to suck up the chips using a floor type tool with 1/4" hardware cloth wrapped over it.
That is, he might be able to. And of course-using the approved hepa vac......................
I'm surprised zippy didn't respond with a narrower link to......
the rule pertaining to a detached garage. You'd think it's in there according to his referral. Wonder if he's a zipwall employee, stockholder or officianado. He must have some information pertinent to the discussion or he wouldn't have bothered with his answer.
no?
More reading on the subject.
In The May 6, 2010 edition of the Federal Register, the EPA outlined the changes it is proposing to make to the RRP Rule regarding exterior containment. In Part II of that Federal Register (pages 25038-25073) under Section E: (page 25055), "Other Proposed Amendments to the Final RRP Rule" it states the intent of the EPA to propose additional amendments to exterior vertical containment.
No answer there
I used the search feature of Adobe to look for keywords such as garage, detached, separate, etc and found no specific answer to the Q
My gut feel is that the exemption for barns is a general exemption for "agricultural buildings". Ag buildings are routinely exempted from many building and safety regs for several reasons, good and bad. A garage would only earn an exemption if you kept a horse in it.
Two questions need to be answered.
Both pertain to whether the RRP rules have jurisdiction. Note that the rules apply to 'contractors' who work on 'residences.' Both issues are fuzzy here.
Simply put, it's a crapshoot whether either condition applies, let alone both. Simple odds say there's a 3 out of 4 chance the guy is exempt.
First, was the worker an employee or a contractor? If the payment was less than $600, there's no IRS need for a 1099, or withholding. Absent any proof of advertising - a business card, ad on Craigslist, etc - the guy can probably claim to be an employee, and thus exempt from the rules.
Next, the EPA would have to persuade a court that a detached garage was part of the residence. It's all about 'the children,' after all!
The fact is, your neighbor can sand / scrape / powerwash his house all day, sending lead paint dust flying all over the neighborhood, without violating the law. It's only illegal if a CONTRACTOR does the same thing. So, have a hissy fit if it makes you feel better ... but that's the only satisfaction you'll get.
There's another unintended consequence: the new rules will only give the itinerant laborer an even greater price advantage over a 'real' contractor. At some point, all that will remain are the trunk-slammers. Most folks feel that being a 'good neighbor' stops at their pocketbook.
Not trying to be flippant about but what is the true risk anyway?
30 + years ago we all lived with it everyday. Everyone of us was exposed to it constantly. It was in our gas for petes sake and in our drinking water via lead pipes and lead solder (and there were no bottled waters back then). Its been banned from paint and gas for those last 30+ years. Any exposure we get now even in a situation like this, is bound to be lower than what everyone over 40 grew up with. Speaking of which, how much of the paint is actually lead and non-lead? This isn't likely the first time in 30 years the thing has been painted. Don't freak out, but somewhere along the way, that garage was scrapped already (and probably sanded) and there is lead in that general vicinity already.
If one wants to, they can worry themselves to death (literally) over what is going to kill them.
Tell me how many of you are going to follow the 10 steps the EPA recommends for clean-up after a broken CFL? (and you know in your heart they really wanted them to be even more ridgid than these 10)
Hands up high while I take a count.
Bottom line, you are far more likely to do damage to your health by fighting in court (or otherwise) with your neighbor than you are with the exposure you MAY get from any lead that MAY be in the paint that landed in your yard.
Here's the flippanto part.
Bryan is a contractor, took the RRP class, registered and presumably is following the rules.
The other guy and the neighbor who hired him did not. Now, to say that if the guy that did the work didn't have to follow the guidelines because he was not a contractor or sub hired by the owner..........is just not right. Whether or not you and I that have breathed lead for many many years and aren't dead yet isn't the point.
There is a law and we as contractors are required to follow it. With a healthy fine if we don't certainly emphasises the point. The neighbor didn't and if nothing else was damn inconsiderate with the mess he left his neighbor.
But screw it, I got a greenie tonight and our team made second in the scramble. A beautiful nite for golf.
Make you a bet.
You go look up the stats on the number of people harmed last year by lead. (Not some pie in the sky estimates but real live stats.)
I'll go look up the number of people who were killed, assaulted or financially harmed over stuff like this with a neighbor.
Hands down I win.
BTW, are you going to follow the EPA steps on cleaning up a broken CFL?
View of authority
Dear cussnu2,
Your previous post just shows the general disregard for authority and neighbor that the majority of people today have. I will do what I want. Who cares about anybody else?
Most people litter, i.e. - throw their cigarette butts and McDonalds trash out the window as they drive down the road. Who cares, I don't have to pick it up.
It is also apparent as you drive down the highway. The speed limit is XX. I will go whatever I want to. And when they come up to someone who is trying to obey the law, they get angry. Yes, road rage happens when you don't get out of their way.
These are the same people who probably say: "My country, right or wrong." And then cheat on their taxes, lie in court, steal from their neighborhood store. You get the picture.
All I asked the guy doing the work is if he would clean up the paint in my drive. He said: "Oh yeah, I'll clean it up." Has he done it? No. Will he do it? Probably not.
The RRP rule is the law. So I ask: How many obey the law? Not if they can get away without doing it.
I too have been around lead, mold, and asbestos all of my life. It hasn't killed me yet, either.
I would just appreciate it if my neighbor would clean up the mess. But, then, he is the same one who throws snow into my drive after I have shoveled it, and blows grass onto my drive when he mows, and throws cigarette butts in my yard, and lets his dog poop in my yard.
I have tried to be nice to him since he has lived there. And yes, I lived in my house before he bought his house. Not that that gives me any more rights than he has. I just wish he, as well as everyone, would be more considerate of their neighbor.
Sorry for the long rant. I just wanted to know what the RRP rule says about garages.
Thanks everyone for your thoughtful replies!
Bryan
Here is what your neighbor has done: Contaminated your property with a known toxic substance, It's the same as if he dumped motor oil or mercury on your lawn.
Here is what else he's done: given you something you must now report as a known defect disclosure that can inhibit the value of your home when it is time to sell.
I spilled mercury in my home awhile back. There is a specific area where I know it soaked into the slab, it can only be gotten out by knocking out the affected section. I must report this to the next buyer of my home, along with all the areas that have asbestos that I know about. If I don't disclose it, I'm liable for it.
My FIL just won a BIG case in Buffalo NY, where a previous owner didn't disclose that the house has a sinking foundation. The Bank, realtor, and previous owner were ALL on the hook for the full price of the home.
Talk to the city, him spreading lead on his own lawn is one thing... spreading it on yours is a whole 'nuther altogether.
Lead killed over 30,000 people in the US last year. Yet no one takes any steps to ban it.
"Contaminated your lawn with
"Contaminated your lawn with a known toxic substance.'
SO?
No law was broken, no regulation violated. No harm, no foul.
Presence of lead is alleged, not proven. No allowance has been made for lead that may be naturally in the soil, or come from other sources (like the complainants' own activities).
Someone wants to sue, good luck ever finding a lawyer who will say 'no.' As long as you have the cash, they'll file a suit. Nor does any ruling by any trial court have any applicability to any other case- there's no precedent.
"Big case." Sure it was - but all awarded was getting the sale undone. The system is suposed to restore things to a prior condition- not play the lottery. A few paint flakes? So what, exactly, was the damage done? What efforts could the OP have taken to reduce his loss?
Regarding that 'death' statistic ... perhaps figures don't lie, but liars can figure.
Scott Gibson's answer
Scott,
Thanks for your article, "Do Rules on Disturbing Lead Paint Apply to a Detached Garage?", and answer to my question. I appreciate you taking the time to research it.
Here is a link to the article that Scott wrote for Fine Homebuilding in answer to my question:
https://www.finehomebuilding.com/item/17839/do-rules-on-disturbing-lead-paint-apply-to-a-detached-garage/?&lookup=auto&V27=R&V28=3&V29=3&V30=&V31=&V32=0&V33=0&V34=0&V35=0&V55=01-MAR-2012&V56=0&Taun_Per_Flag=true&utm_source=email&utm_medium=eletter&utm_content=20110822-lead-paint-garages&utm_campaign=fine-homebuilding
IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE IF IT IS ATTACHED OR NOT. IF IT IS RESIDENTIAL... IT APPLIES. THE IRONY OF ALL THIS IS THE HOMEOWNER CAN MAKE ALL THE LEAD PAINT DUST HE WANTS.... IF HE IS IN THE BUSINESS OF MAKING A LIVING OFF SUCH ACTIVITY.... HE HAS TO PLAY BY THE RRP RULE.... THIS IS THE MOST REDICULOUS RULING THE GOV'T HAS EVER COME UP WITH SINCE BREAKING UP THE TELEPHONE COMPANY.
Win
And how do you qualify that it would make no difference attached or not? I've got the remodeler vs. homowner part.
Bryan
I did not look over the official RRP site, but just rcvd. a notice from one of the myriad suppliers of RRP stuff (that I get as a result of either my training or from the govt. list of certified remodelers. That notice announces an upcoming rule addition that adds vertical containment to the exterior reno's.
If true, I'm sure there'll be some more words or interpretations that explain containment in a broader light for all exterior work.
The wind and careless containment is sure to expand the guidelines.
RRP rules apply if 6 sq ft of the interior surface of a residential dwelling are disturbed or 100 sq ft of the exterior of the dwelling.
Don't see why the rules would not apply to detached accessory structures.
manhattan
The rule generally does not apply to minor maintenance or repair activities where less than six square feet of lead-based paint is disturbed in a room or where less then 20 square feet of lead-based paint is disturbed on the exterior, but this does not include window replacement, demolition, or prohibited practices.