Hello all,
I bought an old industrial building recently with “flat” roofs.
Tar paper and slag.
I would like to replace them with rubber, epdm.
I am a carpenter not a roof specialist.
So, I don’t know much about them. Some of it comes in short width rolls, some come in huge rolls. Some is seamed with a torch as I understand it, and some is seamed with a glue or solvent?
Should the existing roofing be totally stripped or just the slag on top of the roofing?
Thanks in advance for all comments!
Tom
Replies
IDog, Try here. http:/www.mulehide.com
Vince Carbone
Edited 4/25/2002 5:09:44 PM ET by Vince Carbone
It sounds lik e what you have is called Builtup roofing. This becauise it is built up of layers of perforated felt and hot asphalt. Generally two to four layers of paper.
If you don't have to protect the interior or contents, you would be best off to strip the roofing down to the deck.
The 36" - 39" wide rolls are Modified torch down.
The larger, wider ones are EPDM rubber roof.
They are both the new gereration of what is called single ply roofing.
On a flat roof it is almost always the seam that fails when you have a leak. A three ply builtup roof has 24" wide seams sealed by the hot asphalt. The new products are almost indestructable as far as weather damage goes but they have only a four inch lap seam to be sealed. That means that it is the technique, experience, and training of the applicator that determines wheather the roof will leak. You should have some basic training to apply either.
It can be done without but...
How long did it take you to become a carpenter? knowing enough to frame a house so the structure is sound?
I roofed for at least twenty years and having seen most of the mistakes that an untrained person can make on flat roofs, I quake at the thought of recommending that anyone should try it on their firsty time out green. The details could make this a loooooooooooonngggggggggg thread.
What is your intended use for the building?
Thanks for the replies!
Piffin, certainly it took me a long time to become a carpenter and at 45 I'm still learning (hopefully always). But I'm not rich and this is a DIY building renovation for the first couple years. So I (we) have to do as much as possible ourselves, especially since we have so much roof area. Not all of it has to be done at once.
So any techniques, tricks, preferences you are willing to divulge
are most welcome. I do intend to hire a roofer to advise and demonstrate but would also like some advice from all you great artisans.
Who knows, maybe Taunton needs to do a roofing book?
Tom
Iron Dog. Of the differeant ways to put the EPDM on, the fastest and easiest way is to Get the 10' x 100' rolls. Install them on fiber board by fastning the edges down and seaming them in. Its a lot quicker then glueing through out. You should think about taking a trip over to a local contractor and spend the day watching them install. If you are a good craftsman you can pick it up pretty quick. The God is in the details here, Primers Adhesive, Tapes seams and caulk all have there place on EPDM. I would recommend ripping it off . You could install fiber boared on top of your current roof and go but taking it off is the best coarse of action.
All,when you say 'fiber board',what do you mean exactly?what the heck was I thinking?
If any kind of roofing material for a non permeable membrane on a flat roof is adhered directly to the sheathing it will try to move with that structural material under loads and thermal changes. It may only last three or four years before developing splits. Also high heat buildup in joist spaces can reduce life span of the materials.
The best way of preventing this is to apply a base of fibreboard. Many diff kinds available for added strenghth, added insulation, tapered for drainage, foil faced, backed, etc, etc, etc,
Suppose you removed your existing roofing down to the sheathing and found that it was decked with 1" x 10" boarding with knotholes and gaps, or 2x6" T&G pine. You wouldn't lay linoleum over such because it would telegraph and show wear at joints quickly. You would put down an underlayment. That is similar to fibreboard on a flat roof.
You are drawing me out here....Excellence is its own reward!
OK piffin,I understand the function of the 'fiberboard'.Are these various products related specifically to roofing,or are they products I may have used in general construction,such as AIS or homasote or extruded polystyrene?
I am really interested in your knowledge in the area of flat roofs,as I live in New Mexico,where there are many such roofs.I have been using elastomerics for the most part on these roofs. The elastomerics have solved a few problems for me without any down-side so far save one:they are beastly expensive.
It can be difficult to sell a coated roof to a client who still remembers what it cost him for his last layer of roll roofing.
Thanks for the response.what the heck was I thinking?
I just typed a long long answer to your questions and when I hit post button, prospero dropped me and my netscape shut down with illegal blah blah.
There is no quality flat roof that is cheap. You need to selll the quality.
Roofing wholesalers can introduce you to the diff products which are proprietary to roofing. Some asphaltic products are not compatable with EPDM More copmpatable with modified. I consider modified torch down to be a ten year roof unless recoated every five years.
Some Fibreboards are similar to homasote but denser because you'll be walking on them. lack of density would encourage punctures.
That's the short version.
Excellence is its own reward!
Isn't fiberboard kinda soft and crumbly for this? Would OSB be better?
-- J.S.
That's all covered in the long long post that got lost in cyberspace. This place is soooooooooooo frustrating lately. I can read articles while a message is posting too.
All roofing products last longer when insulated from the high temps generated in the joist spaces of a flat roof, unvented. Fibreboards developed for roofs help isolate that thermal difference.
Off gassing from the glues in OSB could potentially cause blistering because of trapping gases under the membrane.
It is also important to isolate the membrane from structural elements such as the sheathing or the roofing tries to move with the structure under load, inviting splits and early failure. Picture it like putting linoleum directly on a subfloor without an underlayment to separate the lino from the one by tens or 2x6 T&G. Without an underlayment the joints would telegraph and show wear points quickly. On a flat roof the fibreboard isolates the membrane from the structure.
Old built-up roofing used various fibre boards on commercial roofs always. On residential we usually nailed down a base sheet of coated 60# or a thirty pound felt with rosin paper under it. Some cheap roofing was done with only a fifteen pound base sheet and two plys of hot mopped. Any way the idea is that the naild down base sheet served to isolate the roof from the structurall members so structural and thermal movement didn't tear the roof.Excellence is its own reward!
I wish that your longer post had not been lost in a wormhole,but thanks again for responding.I have been curious about this method of roofing,and I have looked at projects that have specified EPDM,but haven't landed a project like this yet.I am sure I will run into it sooner or later,and I don't have access in this rural area to assist or observe others in an installation,so I like to gather information where and when I can.I remember when the products first showed up in the residential market,and our roofers used them only for small problem areas and crickets on chimneys.At that time, I was operating in a different market where I could call on competent subs and specialists.
Where I am now, I know more about these modern methods and materials than most...scary huh? I have to learn by doing,but I research the products and methods I am unfamiliar with, and I am a stickler for following the manufacturer's recommendations.
I hope you would be willing and available to head me in the right direction when I am faced with my first rubber roof.
Best to you,JWwhat the heck was I thinking?
What the heck,
Back when I first got schooled in EPDM, the companies refused to sell to you until you had been thru their instalation course. Now I guess there are ads in the magazines about where to buy smallamounts butit woiuld still be very worth while for you to seek out such a class.
I am with you on self education. I've always lived in isolated locations. That's one reason we are connected to this web site, right? Excellence is its own reward!
Heck,
I've got to agree with piffin on this.All the companys are different but from Mule Hide we received a CD that covers all their products. It shows all their glues ,cleaners and attachment hardware.It disscusses how to on curbs ,end wall flashing ,vent stacks parapit walls, over hangs,joints,seams and ending the roof,might be worth a try.Vince Carbone
This thread started while I was putting down a rubber roof at my Mom's house! And since it is titled "Rubber Roofing For Idiots", I'll ask my question here!
Since we didn't make quite as much progress on Tuesday as I wanted, and the rains were due to arrive sometime on Wednesday, I actually started work at 5:30 AM on Wednesday (did you all feel the universe give that little shudder?). I used Mule Hide latex glue. I started gluing down the largest sheet and all was going well. But when the sun hit the part that I glued first, it bubbled all to heck.
The last time I put down a rubber roof, I found that if I put down too little glue, it acted just like the "rubber cement" stuff; as soon as the rubber hit it, it stuck. So I was being a bit generous with the glue, but not to what I would have called excessive.
My theory is that the generosity with the glue combined with the sun warming it up quickly after application led to the bubbles, but that neither situation by itself would have. Is that correct? Or is it one or the other?
Thanks,
Rich Beckman
Extra glue means more cure time.
You were rushing to get the job done ahead of the rains.
I assume you didn't give it enuf time to cure and it continued off-gassing when the sun hit it. Or that there was moisture from dew in the deck that vapourized from the heat of the sun.Excellence is its own reward!
In addition to glue off-gassing, is it possible that small amounts of air were trapped when they were cold, and they expanded when heated by the sun?
-- J.S.
Rich , Piffen hit it good on his last post. You may not have to worry if you take action at the right time.
I have seen my wotkers rush the cure time and found if you go back the next day most of the bubbles have improved over night. If you roll out the rest they should go down. What does not , may stay they way. Good Luck.
Piffen,
It sounds like you're agreeing with my theory with the added info of excess glue requiring a longer cure time. There had been no dew, the temp never went below dew point.
All-Trade,
Yes, the rains came and the temp dropped. The next morning more bubbles were gone than remained (still too many left, but....).
Someday I'll have a "perfect" install. At least it didn't leak through the heavy rains on Saturday.
Thanks.
Rich Beckman
Hello Vince,
I saw your reference to MuleHide in the post you put up here at the beginning,but I haven't had a chance to check it out yet.Sounds like they would be a good source for me,thanks.
what the heck was I thinking?
"maybe Taunton needs to do a roofing book? "
Maybe.
Until about fifteen years ago, you couldn't buy EPDM for residential use. The manufacturers wanted to protect the rep and integrity of the product like Solid surface countertopers do now. Many techniques and the judgemental choice of which to use when come into play.
You'll get this more accurately from the roofer you hire. You may also be able to get invited to an installation course from one of the manufacturers through a roofing wholesaler. I don't know if they have this info on video.Excellence is its own reward!
Irondog,
The old built up roof could very well contain asbestos. Not that it should keep you from tearing off to the deck for your new roof; but just be aware of it.
Here in New York, we'd have to notify the state and pay them a fee for the "privilege" of tearing it up. It may also affect your dumping costs (or not...here it's just C&D, but the dumpster has to be labled and the material bagged in poly). cut a couple sections outdown to the deck and get it tested for $25-60 to be sure. It may be a non-issue for you. On the other hand ignoring it and having it come back to bite you might cost a whole lot more later.
We very seldom used asbestos in residential roofs.
Anyway, it is fully encapsulated in bitumen, rendering it almost impossible to create airborne particles. And an owner can do things that a pro contractor can't.
Don't worry about it.
Excellence is its own reward!
Stray,
Thanks for the warning but this is a fairly recent built up tar roof .
I don't think there will be AB in it.
And as piffin points out, it's the airbourne AB that is dangerous.
We have many houses here that have AB shingles from the 50's and 60's. But it's encapsulated in some sort of cement base.
AB doesn't really worry me. Falling off a roof is much more likely.
The owner of the Orioles here in Baltimore is a pri*k lawyer by the name of Peter Angelos. He made his money doing AB tort cases, over a Billion in "earnings".
We all have been exposed to it. Only a small number of unfortunate souls who worked with the crud got really sick from it. Lawyers. Don't get me started!
Tom
Right,
The lawyers got some testimony disallowed in the court cases. It pertained to the fact that the only workers who suffered from asbestosis were the ones who smoked cigarettes also. Non-smokers apparently have the ability to regenerate and heal even after prolonged and extensive exposure to asbestos while smokers make a choice that compromised their systems and increased the odds of creating scar tissue which is the cause of asbestosis.Excellence is its own reward!
I'm not saying to worry about the health risk of taking the roof off. I'm just saying watch yourself from the legal standpoint.
Here (NY), a homeowner is allowed to do the removal IF:
1) the owner OCCCUPIES the structure as PRIMARY residence, and
2) it has 4 dwelling units or less.
If this is a commercial building that you own, you might not be allowed to do removal. We use a cutoff date of 1980 construction for whether to test materials or not. That might be conservative.
Are you saying this is for anything that might have any kind of asbestos or only that which can reasonably be expected to prodcuce airborne.Excellence is its own reward!
any containing material...easily friable or not. I get the impression that NYS's regs are a bit stricter than most other states.
I'm PM for a roofing project right now that has about 6 layers of old asphalt roll roofing on it. some layers are positive. Contractor is required to pay the state a permit fee, and put up abatement notices on the building 10 days prior. They are NOT required to wear tyvek suits or even resperators, because the stuff is in a gooy encapsulated mess....
If they didn't follow the regs and pay the fee though, you can bet there'd be trouble. I'm just advocating to find out what his local regulations call for. Can't ever have too much info.
Piffin, What's Maine's regs like?
In a state of change, for the better and based on reality insead of scares. I'll post when new ones are out. For instance, our local school is postponing a job untill new regs are in place because of minor asbestos in a roof. In a few months, any contractor can handle it. Right now, only a certified one can. And they have to practically teat it like radioactive crap. That doubles cost of dealing with it - all because of a bunch of greedy lawyers.
No hard feelings to you for pointing it out though.
Excellence is its own reward!
Hi all,
Back to the original topic of rubber roofing...
I went to distributor of MuleHide products and they had just gotten in a box of promotional materials, samples, spec. binder with details and even an installation video. Mulehide is really marketing their stuff. Anyway it was all great and the video was very well done. Watching pros install it and all the little tricks they do in manipulating the material was worth a million words.
Highly recommend it.
So that's what I'm going to go with. Going to start with a small roof on our building to get our hands "rubbery" with and go from there.
Thanks for everyones comments.
I'll try to take some photos during installation.
Tom
Way to go!
Excellence is its own reward!
First rubber torchdown roof I did was about five years ago. I'm a builder now about 27 years. I asked a lot of questions and read a buncha stuff. Talked to my roof supplier and a cpl of old roofers that were is the suppy house. Bought a torch and hoses and dint find it all that difficult. seem to be kinda basic stuff but that may be because I take to things kinda fast as I've been doing so many different crafts with in the trade for so long. Just make sure you have a fire extinguser at all times. I've done about six more torch down jobs with total success. Depends on how bad you wanna learn and the time and money you have ( or dont have). PAy someone if you have the money. Once again. I personaly found it pretty simple. House I'm living in now I just finished about four years ago and a third of the rear roof is my torch down work. No problems.
BE well
NAmaste'
Andy
I think most competent construction types can pick up epdm pretty quickly.
Personally, I read all the literature, then hired a friend of mine to consult/walk me through my first job. I have tried on a number of occasions to get instruction from the manufacturers but they like you to have a pretty big job, I think I was told 20 square, before they will send a technician to certify you. The beauty of the certification is they will warranty the roof if done by a certified installer.
Fact is rubber's a lot like concrete, you only get one shot at it. Bubbles and wrinkles are bad. The details are what take the time and make the job.Tom
I'm not trying to be exclusive and say that it's hard to learn. Just that it's hard to teach in a forum. Too many details to miss and hard to explain with words what is better in person or on video.
Excellence is its own reward!
Hello again,
I've been out of contact for a few days. Good to see all the discussion going on.
Piffin, it really sounds like you know your stuff!
I found a manufacturing facility not far away in Carlisle, PA that gives regular seminars on how to apply their products. Only 50.00 for a weekend seminar. The company is Carlisle Syntec. So I think I'll try to get to one of those in the next couple months. I think they also do seminars in other areas from time to time.
Hasta la vista!
Tom