Below is a pic that still stumps me. Perhaps this was common at some point in the evolution of plumbing and this is my first time seeing it, or perhaps….I dunno, perhaps something. This picture is the underside of the floor for a second floor bathroom, in this case going to supply the tub. But…in this situation you see a soft copper hot water line terminating into a “cupped” fitting that transistions to 3/4″ OD pipe threads. This same 3/8″ OD hot water line goes all the way to the basement and enters the 1/2″ hot water line where it comes out of the water heater. This same line also services the sink in the bathroom. Also in the picture is the cold water line run as 3/4″ galvanized all the way from the basement up.
Why on Gods green earth would someone do this? Was there a standard at some point to run hot water only as 3/8″ OD and cold as 3/4″ OD? You would think it would cause a reduction in water pressure. But, after I changed out the tub faucet and turned on only the hot water, there was plenty of pressure to spare.
This particular “cupped” fitting for the hot water line gave me fits. I couldn’t get the chrome nipple out of the fitting. When I thought the nipple was turning it turned out that I twisted the soft copper….needed to replace/repair the soft copper line underneath. Because I wanted to do a quick fix, I didn’t try at all to rectify this crazy setup, I merely duplicated what was already there and screwed a drop ell to a 2x so that if I, or whomever, needs to change out the nipple, the drop ell is secure so it can be turned without bending the hot water line like I did.
Replies
I attached the pic, but it didn't upload for some reason. Trying again.
Before there was PEX tubing there was 3/8 soft copper tubing.
Anyone could buy a 60 ft roll and then snake it from the basement to the fixture that had lost its water service to the clogging of the galvanized pipe down to a drip!
The re-plumb could be done without much measuring, cutting, threading or without all those associated cumbersome tools and methods. Not much skill needed either! And it was a down and dirty fix!
Interesting to see the knob & tube wiring....is it still "hot"?! If it is, be advised that it may be a hazard due to its age and the usual brittleness of the covering. Add to that the close proximity of a dripping water source and metal water pipes you could find yourself with an "in-line electrfied water heater" or an errant neutral leak into the hopefully gounded plumbing system.
The leaded flanged drain connection to the tub shoe speaks to the age of the installation.....no slip joint washer to go bad there!
Regards.............Iron Helix
Helix has it right. This is an old time repair. How old is the house?
-- J.S.
Looks to be like a 1950's era house.If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
I used to help my father in the 40's lead pipe was being phased out then. I think the house is older than the 50's.[The bottom line is,if you have lead pipe in your house, its got a lot of age on it]. This does not pertain to you, its just a post to a post. Luck.
I took the liberty of resizing that pic and lightening the shadows (using Gamma correction.)
Note: there is a difference between water pressure, which is pretty much the same at all fixtures in a house, and water flow. Most people think of reduced flow as reduced pressure.
I'm glad that someone fixed that picture, I didn't know what I was viewing. I believe you have to re-think your post on water pressure, pressure is not the same at all fixtures, it depends on the distance and the amount of resistance of the fittings and the height [I.E. it takes .433 Lbs to raise water one foot]. Bottom line is less pressure, less flow.
The differences in pressure in a residence aren't usually significant, especially on municipal systems.Differences in flow can be, and whenever I see a fixture with poor flow, my clients think it's low pressure.
View Image
Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
"Differences in flow can be, and whenever I see a fixture with poor flow, my clients think it's low pressure"It is low pressure.Low DYNAMIC pressure.Yes, all of the fixtures have the same static pressure, except for a small difference for elevation differences.However, when water flows there is a friction loss in the pipe and the dynamic pressure is less.
I might be in over my head here.<P>But at one site I found this:<P>"When a valve is opened and water begins to flow, the pressure drops. <B>The faster the flow, the lower the pressure drops.</B> Measuring the pressure while the water is flowing is called "dynamic pressure." There will be a different dynamic pressure for different flow rates. [Emphasis added.]<BR>http://tinyurl.com/derft<P> They don't say how much the dynamic pressure drops, though.<P>I still maintain that most people think of low flow in fixtures as "low pressure." And I'd wager that they are thinking about static pressure, not dynamic.<P>But maybe it's just that I've got low dynamic brain pressure on these concepts <G>
View Image
Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
"But maybe it's just that I've got low dynamic brain pressure on these concepts"Can I use your quote int he tavern <G>?
"But maybe it's just that I've got low dynamic brain pressure on these concepts"
Can I use your quote int he tavern <G>?
Ouch,.....that had to hurt :)If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
>>Ouch,.....that had to hurt :)Not a bit. Good natured humor only hurts when you breathe <G>And besides, do you think I was unaware of the possibilities when I joked about myself, putting that line out?
View Image
Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
Ah well....indeed you have a marvelous sense of humor.If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
And so does Bill
View Image
Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
I think that warped or weird better describes mine.
LOLBeing the easy going sort, <G> I won't disagree!
View Image
Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
Sure ....Feel free to use it whenever we're talking about the difference between dynamic brain pressure (me, for instance) and static brain pressure (e.g., a certain duet who shall go unnamed. <!---->)
View Image
Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
<!---->
Edited 7/29/2005 6:17 pm ET by Bob Walker
Bill Hartmann is on it again. He is right. I'm glad someone fixed your picture, now I can see what we are talking about. You have a drum trap connected to a lead pipe, drum traps were banned in most plumbing codes many years ago. The lead pipe is a disaster waiting to happen; get it out if you can. Lots of luck.
You're SURE it's a lead pipe from the pic? Again this is my first experience seeing this, I got a lot to learn still til the day I die.
If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
Just curious, why is lead pipe a "disaster waiting to happen?" Like, what will happen that hasn't happened in the 50+ years of the homes existence? It'll help me describe to my customer the issues so they can make a decision.If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
Question no. one, I'm 99 percent sure that is a lead pipe. Thats exactly how these things were hooked up, a brass or copper drum trap would be soldered into a swaged lead pipe. Question no. two, lead is a soft metal, over the years it loses more and more of the wall size, by the time you get to 50 or so years it's as thin as tissue paper. You can't repair these pipes. [The older the system, the more likely you will have problems with it]. If you can, get the lead out! Luck.
Shack, thanks. I didn't know. Seeing as I never saw this before, maybe it'll be a long time before I see it again, I hope. I'm glad someone on here knew for sure what I was dealing with to offer such specific advice like that. I'll talk to the HO and see how far I get.
If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
Glad I could help. "May the force be with you". Luck.
That is a much better picture, thanks for clearing it up. Now look at that joint where the drum trap meets this silvery colored funnel fitting. Any idea what that silvery colored funnelled fitting is? It looks like one of those old time sheet metal downspouts or something with a funneled end for the drum trap. Ihave a post elsewhere in another thread because on this joint because its' leaking.If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
Looks like lead to me. Take a screw driver and try to scratch the material - lead is soft and you can easily scrape a line in it.I wouldn't worry about having lead waste line, at least from a health perspective, unless you're panning to drink your waste water <G>Some folks here have commented that the old lead waste lines are often corroded and prone to leaking.I think that might be a water quality thing.I see a lot of lead waste lines "dropping" from the flange in homes through the 50's, and they rarely have noticeable problems, but the water in my area is fairly neutral, chemical and acidity-wise.
View Image
Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
Looks like lead to me. Take a screw driver and try to scratch the material - lead is soft and you can easily scrape a line in it.
ChaChing....you get the prize, Bob. Lead it most certainly was. Recall I was lamenting the fact that the lead joint was leaking at the drum trap/lead pipe joint. Today was the day to tackle repairing the leak. A one hour job turned into 8. Stuff just kept breaking as you'll see. But before all that mess started my first step was I sawzalled off right at the joint so as to preserve the drain "nipple" from the drum trap, and then 14" down the lead pipe I cut that off. Blade went thru it like it wasn't even there, no resistance. I examined the extracated piece and saw it was as you said, lead pipe. It was a long continuous piece and bent as you would soft copper to feed over to the main house drain. Upon examining the leaded joint I discovered the source of the leak. The joint was paper thin, it had thinned so much that it just opened up as I sawed it ahead of the joint. The rest of the pipe was about 1/8" thick all around, but the joint itself was grossly thinned. The jointmust've opened ever so slightly to allow a pinhole drip.
Within an hour I had the section cut, a fenco on the drum trap "nipple" and one on the other end of the lead pipe. A piece of PVC served as the splice. All went well until I turned the water on. Waterfall from the floor above. What the???? A slip nut on the old tub drain lost its seal so as water drained out of the tub it of course drained out of the drain pipe also which was an old antique-ish chrome drain and it was leaking at the bottom of the T fitting, that bottom part that goes into the bottom of the T and into the drum trap cast copper section.. I surmised that the sawzall must've caused enough vibration to make the connection loose. Went up, tightened it. Still leaked as if no seal was ever there. I reasoned perhaps the washer was too far gone and needed replaced. Attempted to unthread the bottom chrome piece from the drum trap so that I could get a new washer on it. It unscrewed from the drum trap alright...left half of the chrome threads in it. The pipe was severely thinned and brittle. Turning it to unloosen it merely broke the pipe off in the threads of the drum trap. Now I"m screwed. Drum trap needs to be removed and a standard P trap installed with all new fittings, effectively causing all my prior splice work to now become obsolete.
Tried like crazy to get the cap off the drum trap so that I could pull it down thru the floor. Cap wouldn't budge. I had mega pipe wrenches on the SOB and it wouldn't turn. Had to cut the floor up around it to get it out. In that process I noticed the the remaining chrome drain on the tub also had thinned. Told the HO and that it needs to be replaced now or when I try to hook into the new p trap it may break then for sure. HO says ok.
Off to the supply house, PVC P trap and new chrome drain. Assemble it all, and when I got back I saw water. Where the H did that come from? It came from teh new faucet I installed last week, the clawfoot faucet riser tubes were leaking at the compression/ferrule nuts on each shutoff valve, water seeping up thru the ferrule and top of the nut. I didn't do anything to them, they werent leaking for a week since I installed it, now they start for no reason???? I crank 'em tighter. Still leak, a pinhole leak, slowly leaks water out the ferrule still. Crank some more. Just wont' stop leaking. I think I need new risers to the faucet because the ferrule wont' come off to redo the compression joint, may have even cracked the ferrule, but doubt it, I usualy know when I did that.
At least turned on the water to ensure the drain didn't leak. It doesn't, and the joint to the lead pipe is solid and sound. 8 hrs today for all that nonsense. No clue how I'm gonna bill that to the HO.
If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
there might be another reason for the 3/8's copper. I got fed up with waiting for the cold water to purge from the hot water line at the kitchen sink so I ran 1/4" copper to it to reduce the volume of cold water stored in the hot pipe. So far I haven't had any problems with the volume or pressure being inadequate or mismatched with the cold side.
My guess is that your original plumber was trying to reduce the time delay or wasted water when the user turns on the hot water.
Karl
hah, my whole house is plumbed like that. hell, i have radiators with 3/8" flexible copper feeds to them.