I am wondering as a rule what would you guys charge per sq ft for a deck. Example 12×15 deck 18″ of ground standard 2×2 spindles one set of stairs, ledger attached to house, made of treated lumber. I’m in oakland county michigan land of union inflation.I’ve heard estimates from 15-21.00$sq. ft. Fell free to let me know if I’m not charging enuff.
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Hey man,,if you ae geting $15-20$ a square Ft for preasure treated,,either 1,the stuff costs a lot more than it does here, or two,I need to move there!! John Hyatt deckmastersllc.com
John, While I'm really not a specialist deck company but we do do some and are getting in to more of that kind of work but the numbers I used in my example are pretty much the lower end of what I'll use for deck pricing around here. Those examples come from an estimate I did just the other day and are for:
Decking-Port Orford White Cedar 5/4 x 6
Joist System-2x8 16 o.c. PT
Beam-Triple 2x10 PT Beam
Posts-6x6 PT
No footing since they were existing ( it was a replacement deck)
Railing End & Intermediate Posts- 4x4 Cedar
Railing Balusters- 2x2 Cedar
Railing Cap and Sub Rails-2x Cedar
No Stairs ( one step down to grade on one side of the deck)
I work Westchester County NY and Fairfield County CT so prices are higher for everything here. You can certainly get it done for cheaper than that but for us that where it starts.
"Do not go where the path may lead, go
instead where there is no path and
leave a trail."-- Ralph Waldo Emerson
The other week over on JLC I made a post regarding my opinion of the Square
Foot Estimating method. I've edited what I wrote there and changed my examples
slightly using some figures that I used recently so the examples are more accurate
and real world. I used deck building as my example since it pretty easy to break
down in to Systems for the Systems Estimating Method which I think is a much
better and more accurate and trustworthy method. What follows is the edited
and rewritten post.
In all of these on-line forums from the old Remodeling Online forums through
FineHomebuilding and here I been chanting the mantra that "There is no
such thing a good, fair, or accurate Square Foot Price for estimating. At the
very best a price based on square footage is nothing more than a WAG or SWAG
( Wild Assed Guess or Sophisticated Wild Assed Guess). Square Foot Estimates
are inaccurate, undependable, and dangerous to use."
I’ll reprint one of the examples that I've used several times below (warning
don't use these numbers because they are semi-fictional and arbitrary just for
the purpose of making an example)
Deck#1-16 x 32 feet
Take that off as two Systems; The Deck measured by the SF and the Railing measured
by the LF
Project Price Total
So (theoretically) if I want to estimate by the Square Foot have just figured
out that "I can build decks for $22.14 per SF."
Deck#2-8 x 16 feet
So the next customer wants a deck and I tell him I can build decks for $22.14
per SF and he says that he'd like one 8'x 16' and that works out to 128 SF x
$22.14 per SF which comes to $2834.40. Great! Project sold! That was
easy.(or was it?)
Checking the price I just gave I go back and estimate the project using the
System Costs Method that I used in my original example that gave me this
SF Deck price in the first place it works out like this:
Project Price Total
and deck # 2 SHOULD Cost $ 3,537.60 and not $2834.40.
That's a difference of $703.68. So what did I do there? ‘Give the guy
a %20 discount because his deck was smaller and easier to do????? I don't think
so. I just gave away my time and money. Not only am I doing the work cheaper
than I should but since the project is smaller I am also losing in total sales
volume so I'm making less money twice as fast! How's that strike you?
Square Foot Pricing doesn't really work and you shouldn't even be thinking
in those kinds of terms.
I've got a pretty detailed method of looking at a deck project (at lot more
detailed than the 2 System Costs method I used in my example above) but for
basics in addition to considering species I think contractors would be better
off and better businessmen if they looked at, took-off, and priced deck projects
according to the following basic schedule of values.
(price varies according to soil conditions)
LF
(price varies according to joist sizing & spacing)
(price varies according to angle and/or decking patterns)
A Square Foot Estimate is nothing more that a SWAG and with a potential of
20% error I don't think it should be used for anything more than conversational
and hypothetical talk over coffee or a beer. For real "business-like"
pricing I would use the Systems Estimating Method.
"Do not go where the path may lead, go
instead where there is no path and
leave a trail."-- Ralph Waldo Emerson
Square foot pricing has worked for me for years Jerrald.
As you stated every deck is different and having a standard rate for every one would be leaving a little profit on the table.
I use three different sq. ft. prices by elevation for each product.
I have three different LF prices for railing
2- sq.ft. prices for steps
Footings priced by code.
If sq.ft. pricing is a SWAG system how have I been able to stay in a profitable business for so many years?. I have been approached on many occasions by hackers wanting to know what I charge per sq. foot. I just tell them "every deck is different and the square foot price you want to charge depends on the the profit you want to make. I did the homework, you'll have to do the same."
Bob
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
bob: i think both you and jerrald are right on... you probably have a larger data base for your decks since you specialize..and you are already modifying your prices for special conditions..
jerrald's "systems pricing" is basically the same as yours but is better for someone like me who only builds decks as part of the overall project...the devil and the profits are in the details ("systems')....
i remember "quoting " a deck for a nice lady about 10 years ago... sf with a modification for a set of stairs... she saved her money and called me back 6 months later, so i worked up a small plan , priced it and went back to meet with her... she was very upset because my price was almost double the "quote"...one special condition ("system") after another had done me in... someone else got the job and i never quote without plans & specs anymore...
you wouldn't have blown it as bad as i did... but i think that is the difference between specialists and generalists...
but hey, whadda i no ?
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 5/23/2002 8:19:27 AM ET by Mike Smith
Jerrald -
That's probably the best explanation of square foot pricing I've ever seen. I also agree that it's a bad idea. (In general)
The only point I don't agree on is what SWAG means. I always thought it meant *Scientific* Wild Assed Guess. (That's a wild assed guess with extra thought thrown in)
To Pro-Dek - the fact that you've been profitable with square foot pricing doesn't make it a good idea, or will work for everybody. Sounds like your pricing is based more on experience than just simple square foot pricing.
My take on it is this: If you were to apply just one price per square foot to your deck pricing (Or any type of job) You're going to be high on some and low on others. Trouble is, the other guys might be doing a better job of estimating. So they're likely to bid higher on the jobs that will end up costing more to build. So you're likely to be the low bidder on the jobs with higher costs, thereby making less money or not being profitable at all.
If that explanation doesn't make sense, I'll try it again........
Wink. I'll do the rest.
"If sq.ft. pricing is a SWAG system how have
I been able to stay in a profitable business for so many years?."
Bob, according to the definitions of what the Square Foot and Systems Estimating
methods are you are estimating according to the Systems Estimating Method.
You have broken you product down in to a few different systems that you have
developed prices for. I had thought I recalled either you or another deck builder
here once describing that method so that why I asked for your comments on this
topic to help clear thing up. You may be using a system that's simpler than
mine but it's still Systems Estimating and not Square Foot Estimating.
Square Foot Estimating has it's purpose but it's not for what Barnee is
intending to use it for. To me it sounds like he wants to go in to the deck
building business and he's wondering what to charge.
Bob, when you wrote:I have been approached on many occasions
by hackers wanting to know what I charge per sq. foot. I just tell them "every
deck is different and the square foot price you want to charge depends on the
the profit you want to make. I did the homework, you'll have to do the same."
Barnee is doing some of his homework on-line here it seems and what I'm
saying is that it's a little more difficult than just knowing what the average
SF price for a deck is. Barnee, Bob's making a great recommendation here--YA
GOTTA DO THE HOMEWORK.
A quick count looking through a copy of the HomeTech Remodeling and Renovation
Estimator that I have shows that there are 122 line items related to decks their
railings and steps. Looking through my own estimating database I have 22 different
versions of basic deck railing pricing alone.
I'm really an architectural woodworking contractor if you want to really pin
down what we do with a label and I'm always blown away by the question "what
do you charge per Square foot to trim a house". I can't believe how ridiculous
that sounds. Like all houses are the same. Like all projects are the same. Sure
some products and techniques repeat themselves over and over but the ratios
to each other change all the time as in the simple deck estimate I illustrated
above. Young or inexperienced contractors are always trying to find a short
cut around getting the Estimating and Pricing education which is so important
and vital to genuine long term success in these trades. Square Foot Estimating
is that short cut so many want to take.
My suggestion Barnee is get a copy of the HomeTech
Remodeling and Renovation Estimator for your area and see what the costs
and prices are for your region and use that as a starting point. As I may have
implied that "15-21.00$sq. ft" you mentioned sounds like it's on the
lower end of the market from my perspective.
"Do not go where the path may lead, go
instead where there is no path and
leave a trail."-- Ralph Waldo Emerson
Thanks for the advice. Most of what you do is true to what I use to figure costs for decks. It's not my specialty but I frequently do get asked to do them. I always try to stay competitve in my market but prices are always changing and will be moreso in 2003 when the do-away with CCA treated lumber. Guess we'll all have to do MORE homework then. Just what we need.
Jerrald- Sorry- you hit a nerve stating sq.ft. is a scientific wild ass guess. I worked too hard for too many years compiling information to call it a guess.
Lately I've been wondering if I should go back to the drawing board though. I lost my last two bids to lower prices, that usually doesn't bother me but I have to wonder if I did something wrong in my presentation,qualification,and explanation of my services.
As you know price isn't everything.
On to my next three bids.
Bob
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Bob, if your price made sense to you, you can't be upset about losing the job to a lower bid. If they went for the lowest price, then your message of quality, detail, etc., was lost on them, anyway. And if the "winner" does the same or similar quality work at a cheap price, they probably won't be around long.
Good luck on the next ones!Bear
Bob,
I have to agree with BearMon. Having seen pictures of your decks, I seriously doubt that someone who underbid you is going to deliver the same quality of workmanship and design that go into your decks.
I have lost jobs in the past to lower bidders, then had the customer that thought my price was to high pay me even more money than my original quote to come out and fix or redo the job because they did not get the quality that they wanted.
Good luck on the next ones. TCW Specialists in Custom Remodeling.
Everyone is missing the point.
Low price doesn't always get the deal. It gets the deal when the customer percieves there is no differance only the price.
Let me repeat that critical part, When the customer percieves there is no differance! Selling is about the differances.
Watch the customers eyes while you make your presentation. They will only pay full attention at a couple of points. The only one you can be certain of is during the price presentation. In that moment you have a chance to seperate yourself from the competition.
The way I would do it is....
I'm certain that I can build a deck for the same price others are quoting if we do an apples to apples comparison. For example I use gold plated screws (or whatever) on my super premium decks, however if you just want nails then my price is ....and if you don't have very critical standards for joint accuracy I can save you another..... Decks are pretty basic and like everything else in life you get what you pay for.
That method does several things, it seperates you in a way that the customer percieves as value. You and the customer can better decide if you are a good fit.
Well put Frenchy- I can match other prices buy using tight Knot cedar for my railing but I always use clear cedar which costs much more.Bob
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
That's what I'd use then.
First explain that you are not more expensive then the competition by telling them that you're willing to do the job for the market price, but that you believe that having a knot free railing is critical and because of it your price reflects that.
Now you get to tell them why and they have the choice of hiring you to do the job you want or you have the option to accept the lower quality/ safety of a rail with knots or passing on the job. But at least you have the option not the customer....
Boss, as for SWAG I've also heard it defined as: Silly Wild Assed Guess, Stupid
Wild Assed Guess and....I'll leave it at that and I'll defer to your definition.
I like that one.
Where you write "If you were to apply just one price
per square foot to your deck pricing (Or any type of job) You're going to be
high on some and low on others." That's so very true. If you take
my examples above and reverse them then the guy who built the smaller Deck Version
# 2 first and used the Square Foot Price from that project as his basis for
selling jobs would be making a killing on the Deck Version # 1 type projects.
The problem is for those guys using Square Foot Estimating is that's it's a
crap shoot. They can never predict what kinds of projects they'll be actually
working on and consequently they never can predict over the long term whether
they will be making money or losing money.
"Do not go where the path may lead, go
instead where there is no path and
leave a trail."-- Ralph Waldo Emerson