hello,
New here and a dyi-er. i buy the mag and thought I’d check the forum out.
We put in a 6’0 by 5’0 Atrium (out of Washington state) window a couple years ago. It has a ‘strong’ 5/8″ sag from the framing – and the framing is near perfect in level on the sill and at the top.
It developed a crack on the bottom interior corner so the company sent a guy out to look at it. Nothing serious, fortunately. Just a little gule
But I mentioned the sag to him and he said it should be there and proceeded to tell me it could have been the lumber company who delivered it by strapping it too tight in the middle.
My question is, should I look into getting it replaced We put different density glass in the guy to sound proof it some.
I’m not real thrilled to have to fill the gap with a lot of caulk.
Replies
Pictures would help a bunch.
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
okay.
let me know if you need a different angle
I guess my question is: If it is supported by the framing--there is a sill under it supported by cripples and there is a proper header over it--how can it sag? Seems like it would need an empty space to "sag into" or the whole wall is sagging. Can it be shimmed in the middle of the bottom to reduce the sag? Or is the window curved downward and was that way before it was placed in the rough opening?
I have seen vinyl windows with a sag, but we just screwed them up on sliders. I wonder if that is what was supposed to have been done and skipped by the installers.
it is nailed on the side flanges. nothing on the top
This window I would send back. I have had windows like that before and I really don't care who's fault it is. Contact your supplier and tell him you want a new window that is built better.
thanks. we'll see what happens...
A few brief questions:
1) there are no nails in the top vinyl nailing flange?
2) the window frame (not the nailing flange) is installed right down on the rough sill (framing) with no gap between?
no nails on the top flangejust "tar paper" on the bottom sill. no gap; no shims.
Thanks for clearing that up. Forget what I said about shims. I misunderstood the situation.
What is your thought about no nails in the top flange? Doesn't sound good to me. When we install vinyl windows we nail every other hole around the entire perimeter of the unit.
just what I've heard from two different contractor friends of mine, again, I am just a dyi-er, though I've worked with my friends as another hand when they were short handed.
Yes, I have a contractor friend who I helped with the work.'curved downward' didn't notice anything at the time.
If your rough frame sill was out of level, and the installer put a shim on one end of the window to bring it to level, without adding intermediate supporting shims, the window will sag.
Buried somewhere deep within the instructions, it will say that vinyl windows should be continuosly supported at the sill.
It is also possible that an extremely tight strap on the delivery truck could do permanent damage.
as I said in the original post - near perfect level. it's right within the bubble line maybe just a shade to one side of being within the bubble line or whatever it's called
It will only get worse. I have seen a lot of large windows sag.. PVC just is not strong enough. Get a fiberglass frame you will never regret the few more $ spent.
Didn't know that was even an option. And the 'end user' I just heard the praises of vinyl. As usual, hindsight is 20/20.Matter of fact there is a company out here that advertises all the time, on the radio, about their triple pane argon gas filled windows saving 40% on energy bills.
I've seen that same sag in most every vinyl window I've ever seen, ecspecially one that wide.
I don't understand what you are wanting to caulk.
I would build and extension jamb and trim it then install it as one unit.
caulking will do what?
foam it with minimal expanding foam first if anything.
Edited 11/8/2009 6:12 pm ET by mikeroop
Are you referring to the interior casing? Sorry, didn't make it clear, I was referring to the outside trim boards over the top flange. There is a 5/8 gap there that, unless another idea comes, I planned to caulk.It sounds like any vinyl window at 6'0" will sag. So maybe it's not worth fighting to get replaced. But then the guy who came out said it should not sag like that....
regardless what he said all large vinyl windows sag.
don't caulk the trim set it up there and scribe it to the window.
bingo problem solved
if your friend is a perfectionist he'll know what to do.
Level and "Flat " are two different things. If the sill is not "flat" or straight but instead high at the ends (but with the two ends being level with respect to each other ) Your window will sag. Vinyl windows need continuous support under the sill, if that is provided they will not sag. Helps to place a few nails at the header over the top of the flange and bend them down over the flange.
Life is Good
it is flat and straight, my friend is a perfectionist - really... :)
Any 6-0 wide window is going to need shims between the rough sill and the bottom window sill. I don't understand how it can sag if it is supported properly with shims, etc.
What happens is the window frame is not set against the window. Then when it is shipped it can be forced down tight against the glass.
I think this is what has happened here.
I have fixed, but really the lumber yard or window company is responsible for the fix. It is touchy.
thanks, you are among the minority of getting it fixed
I have seen that. Probably because of the inherant bias on here about vinyl windows.
Personally I like them, but many don't.
I like vinyl windows too. For someone's elses house. :-) Why? They operate smoothly, are pretty air tight, have few problems and are a good value. Heck, I'd even put them in my house if DW would let me build a cheap one like I want. You know - slave to the mortgage co and all that.
If you have more money to spend my favorite is double hung, wood framed, vinyl sash with composite exterior sill and PVC brick mold. Good mix between performance (ease of operation) and looks. They take careful attention to detail to install right though and you are mostly stuck with the white sashes.
Re wood windows, my experience is that more often than not they don't operate very well. Modern vinyl tracks help some with that. Still they are prone to rot, especially since most people now adays don't maintain their homes properly.
hum, if we shimmed the middle then we would have had to shim the ends and what would be the purpose of that?
A lot of people don't realize it but vinyl windows do need to be shimmed. Always along the bottom. Two places for smaller units - say up to about 3' wide. More for wider units.
Also, For example on the double hung units a shim is needed at either side of the meeting rail.
Many modern homes are built with single hung vinyl windows. Or at least the ones that have that style of window. Traditional style homes rule here so we don't see many sliders and only a few casements. Certainly almost all production homes here get single hung; the ones that are under say 400k. Why? Two reasons: 1) the way most people live today in this climate they don't open the windows much, what with AC, programmable thermostats, security concerns, etc. so having a double hung window isn't even on their radar. They just don't care. No, I'm not talking about the atypical group here - I'm talking about office workers and the average modern folks. I can count on one hand the number of home buyers who said something or asked about single hung windows. Only one guy that I was aware of actually had an issue with it - that I knew of. I even had one lady say "No, screens aren't necessary. I don't like much air". This is an exact quote. I was shocked.2) Double hung vinyl windows can be problematic. The units can bow out in the area of the meeting rail, causing the sashes to be loose - they need shims in that area. So, since single hung are cheaper, less problems, and most homebuyers just don't care many entry to mid level builders opt for single hung. I was shocked when I first started at my company and saw they were using single hung vinyl on $400k houses. The 800k ones get wood windows. Sure, if you have a conversation with a $600k custom home presale buyer about window quality you have probably a 50/50 % chance of upselling away from vinyl.
When we evaluate vinyl windows for purchase one of the main things we look for is rigidity of the perimeter frame. When you do side by side comparisons it is easy to detect.
Larger units are more prone to these frame "bowing" problems. For example, when I look at a house plan and it is calling for a triple vinyl window, (3 single or double hung mulled together) I always substitute 3 singles with stud pockets between. Why? Because I haven't ever seen a triple vinyl window that didn't bow out when you pushed on the center unit with moderate pressure. Even the twin units are a little flimsy. It's evident when just operating the sashes.
Personally, I think the problem with the subject window is 1) too large a unit for vinyl, and 2) faulty installation - not supported (shimmed) properly. This stuff from the window mfg about shipping damage is likely a cop-out.
The above about shimming vinyl windows, I've learned the hard way.
Instructions for very vinyl window I have ever installed called for "continuous" support at the sill. ie.: no point load shims. Shimming the sides in done where needed.
Life is Good
You made me look!! :-)
I've been using Silverline windows for a few years. Just checked the install instructions and it doesn't not say "continious support", although it doesn't adress wide units either.
None the less - I believe the subject window wasn't supported properly. Your thoughts on that?
matt my friend the sag is in the top and top only the bottom is sitting perfectly flat on the framing how do you get it needs shimmed on the bottom to fix the top?
doesn't make sense cause then you would have a hump on the bottom
and if i recall the window is a large picture unit no slider or dbl hung or any such thing.
so no shims won't help!
OK - I missed the part about "the bottom is sitting perfectly flat on the framing ". I assumed it was installed with a gap between the rough sill and the window.
Edited 11/11/2009 10:37 pm ET by Matt
you busted this guys balls for 30 posts, about it not being installed properly and you missed that? it's only mentioned about 6 times in the first few post.
I'm not grumpy just tryin to make a point because it is a pet peeve of mine when people don't read everything then call some one out.
When you first posted to me above I went back and read all that the OP had written. I just went and read them all again for a 2nd time. He did not clearly state that the bottom of the window is right down on the framing. Other people mentioned it but the OP never confirmed or denied it.
I've only installed (had installed) somewhere between 500 and 1000 vinyl windows over the past 5 years and yes I read the instructions and all the brands that i have used called for a gap under the window with shims. Per Dovetail apparently some vinyl windows are not supposed to have a gap below, which was news to me. I don't know about the Atrium brand that the OP used but I did just read the online install instructions for that brand and they neither confirm or rule out the need for a gap. Maybe the install instructions that actually come with the Atrium units are more detailed.
None the less, if the vinyl window that is the subject of this thread is set right down on the rough sill (framing) then obviously shimming would not have helped with the top sag problem so I was wrong about that.
OTOH, above I believe that the OP stated that the window was nailed on the sides but not on the top. Post .9. Do you have any thoughts on that? And actually, I'm a little confused on that as well because there appears to be some kind of fasteners showing on the interior of the window on one of the pics the OP posted above.
Edited 11/12/2009 7:07 am ET by Matt
Matt I think all flanges should be nailed just as you do . we also nail every other hole all the way around. But from my experiance with vinyl windows nailing the top flange would not have solved his problem.
We once were asked to install 65 vinyl patio doors that were 8' tall and 15' wide and had been stored in a semi trailer all summer and this was january. those things were so bowed and twisted. it was unreal. smaller windows stored were the same way.
vinyl has it's place i just feel it's not for larger windows.
just my 2 cents
>> We once were asked to install 65 vinyl patio doors that were 8' tall and 15' wide and had been stored in a semi trailer all summer and this was january. those things were so bowed and twisted. it was unreal. smaller windows stored were the same way. <<Even when installing wood doors with PVC brickmold it's a good idea to use a big level to be sure the long jambs are straight. I can see that your situation was a real fiasco. Must have been extremely frustrating, and if is by bid, I'm guessing you all probably got burned.... Bet you are glad that is in the past. BTW - I don't think I've ever seen a vinyl unit that big.
>> vinyl has it's place i just feel it's not for larger windows. << Exactly!!!
I got my money but only because the owner of the company(whom i'd never met) walked in the office right in the middle of my threats of bodily harm to his super. was paid in full 10 mins later :)
vinyl has it's place i just feel it's not for larger windows.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
A 6' wide window is not too wide for a vinyl unit. I have as stated earlier seen where the straps from the lumber yard have forced a vinyl frame down further onto the glass. This is what I believe has happened in this case.
The problem has been exagerated by the failure to nail the top flange.
thats probably the best guess so far as none of use were there and his contractor buddies don't know either.
I have seen and corrected it before. It is a tricky fix if I remember correctly. Either way it is the lumber yard that has messed up.
So whats the fix? Deglaze it and use a heat gun to straighten the frame?
Take the glass out of the frame and restraighten the frame, then reinstall.
Hey Matt, So "why" do you think they need to be shimmed? Maybe I missed something in your reply.The bottom of the window is 'flat', the sill is level and flat. So why shim? Why raise it up at a few points with shims? Gravity is gravity - it going to pull down either way on the window.You, and others, nailed the point - vinyl can not support that size of window. So much for my lumber yard helping me make an informed decision!
As I said in an earlier post, hindsight is 20/20.Thanks for the detailed reply.
Again, I thought on your window there has a gap between it and the bottom framing. Why would I think this? Because every vinyl window I've either installed or had installed was installed with a gap below. The shims below supply some support in the case of a gap (not your case). The gap is necessary if the rough sill is not pretty close to level. Here are the install instructions for the brand of window that I have been using for the last few years. I don't always follow install instructions to a 'T' but generally I do unless I have a good reason not to. As often as not, a reason might be something I learned the hard way. When installing anything that is vinyl there has to be some allowance given for the item to expand and contract. Vinyl expands and contracts with temp changes more than most other building materials. So, vinyl windows are installed with a gap on least on 3 sides and the nailing flanges have slotted holes to allow for some movement (expansion and contraction). The thing about the shims is counter intuitive to this, but on the other hand, I had some double hungs bow out on the sides and the MFG said they weren't gonna help me because the windows weren't shimmed per the instructions. It was a big problem as it would have required the removal of the inside trim and the exterior (painted) siding and probably would have resulted in dW work too. I hate to admit it, but the HO never mentioned it, so neither did I. Also, I have had the glass in vinyl windows crack that were installed too tightly. Some DA framers installed the windows on a house with a roofing gun through the flanges and didn't use the slotted holes. I wasn't there for the moment of brilliance, I only arrived shortly after the fact - and dealt with the callbacks. Same house, BTW. Those guys never installed any windows for me again...
>> You, and others, nailed the point - vinyl can not support that size of window. So much for my lumber yard helping me make an informed decision! << I will never install really large vinyl window units.
>> So much for my lumber yard helping me make an informed decision! << I hear that too... OTOH - Actually I deal with a really good yard salesmen or 2 but now aday, with the economy the way it is, and everyone getting laid off, they have little time to do anything other than take orders for purchases.
Finally, I think your 6-0 windows should have had nails through the holes in the top flange.
thanks again for all the info.again, i just went with the flow on not nailing the upper flanges.anyway, i'm going to see what the lumber yard or dealer will do...
Did the glass move down?Or is it just that the material (vinyl?) above the glass got squished in the middle?
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?