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Sagging center beam

wooderson | Posted in General Discussion on September 29, 2008 01:52am

I recently bought a T&G log ranch. It is about 1600 sf. The log exterior walls sit right on a conventionally framed deck. The floor joists are 2x12s that start at the sill plate and overlap at a beam that runs the entire length of the house. The beam is a a triple 2×12 with staggered joints. It sits in pockets in the block foundation walls at each end of the house.

I am getting ready to install hardwood floor in the entire 1st floor(minus the bathrooms and kitchen which were recently tiled before we bought the house). After ripping up all the thick carpet and pad, I put a level on the floor and it slopes towards the center beam about 3/4 of an inch over the 6 foot level. The basement was finished and it looks like they took out some of the lolly columns in the process and replaced some with 4×4 posts and some are just gone all together to make room in the basement. There are two lolly columns left, but they both have bent steel top plates that are now almost rounded down.

Can I possibly rectify this situation? I am worried that if I try to jack up the center beam it is going to cause cracks in the tile grout and drywall job upstairs. I also dont know where the footings are located. I have no original plans and the concrete floor of the basement all looks the same, so I think they poured the slab over the footings. I am not sure. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

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  1. MikeSmith | Sep 29, 2008 02:03am | #1

    sounds like u gotta jack..

    may need MORE lally columns with their own footings

    look for point loads that are off the existing lally columns

    Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
    1. wooderson | Sep 29, 2008 03:24am | #4

      The basement is currently finished and the center beam is covered in some of the areas. I think my first step is going to be ripping all that out and getting at the beam and the slab, so I can get a more clear picture.What do you mean by "look for point loads?" I am not sure what to look for.When I add more lally columns, should I cut through the slab and pour new footings just to be safe.?

      1. MikeSmith | Sep 29, 2008 03:34am | #5

        how many floors in the house ?

        sometimes roof loads  ... like dormers... bear on 2d floor walls...and headerd  openings on the 2d floor bear on walls on the 1st floor

        openings on the first floor are carried on headers  and posts.. if theses  wind up mid-span on the main beam...  you may have loads that were not properly designed for

        stairwells are  one usual culprit

         yes... any lally columns you add need a footing... cut the basement slab , excavate, & pour a footing for each one

        Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

        Edited 9/28/2008 8:36 pm ET by MikeSmith

      2. Piffin | Sep 29, 2008 03:38am | #6

        Point loads in rooms above might give you a clue where the old posts had been below. Also spacing. Say if this beam is 44' long, and you have two posts each at 11' spacing, that is a hint that the missing one might have been another 11' over along thebeam. When you get it undressed, you might see old signs of steel plate there.A point load is where a lot of other loading comes to bear. Like say, a center wall above this beam that carries center beam over it and second floor - even ridge loads. That wall might be interrupted someplace by a large archway between living room and dining or something like that. The ends of that oppenning are point loads tranferring larger specific loads to below. It is always wise to have points loads continue to foundation vertically, so there should already be a footing under slab right there. 

         

        Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

        1. wooderson | Sep 29, 2008 03:53am | #7

          Okay, thanks for the explanation on point loads. Now I know exactly what you mean.The house is only one story and the roof is trusses. The layout is pretty typical ranch. There is a great room on one end of the house, but that section has a fairly level floor. From the great room there is a hallway that runs down to the bedroom/bathroom section of the house. The left side wall of the hallway is directly above the beam and in the center of the house. I will check under the point loads in that wall for column locations. The house is 60 feet long and the lally column that is under the great room(level section) is 12 feet in, so I will see where 24', 36', and 48' are after some demo.Do you think I should sister and LVL to the existing beam? Or just jack it up, very slowly, and then support it better. Thanks, guys.

          1. Piffin | Sep 29, 2008 04:01am | #8

            The professional answer to that is that you need to have an engineer in to look at it after you open it up.But odds are that you will find signs of where the old posts were and can just jack and replace them.But somebodies seat of the pants engineering like that is what got you to this point. 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          2. wooderson | Sep 29, 2008 04:08am | #10

            It seems that the original owner was pretty fearless and a little clueless when it came to working on the house. I am coming across quite a few issues. This is the only major one, though. I wish I looked deeper during the initial inspection, but I was rushing to beat other buyers. The house is on a great wooded lot in an area with very few nice lots left. The price was right even if the house was a tear down.

          3. MikeSmith | Sep 29, 2008 04:05am | #9

            3 (2x12) is usually a pretty nice beam... what is the width of the house ?

            and trusses should mean there is no roof load transferred to the beam  

            shouldn't be any point loads

            might be the lally columns are spaced too far apart... or there may have been some footing settlement  / failureMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

          4. wooderson | Sep 29, 2008 04:13am | #11

            The house is 24' wide for most of its length, but it has a bump out centered in the back that adds another 6 feet for 24 feet in length. The bump out section is the most out of level, which could be from the extra length of those joists or just because that is the center of the house. I am not sure which.

          5. MikeSmith | Sep 29, 2008 04:18am | #12

            any good framing contractor could analyze your problem pretty fast  

            but i'd like to see a first floor framing plan... it sounds a little more complicated than a 24 x 60 center-stick floorMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

          6. wooderson | Sep 29, 2008 04:38am | #13

            I am going to demo some more of the finished basement (which needed to go anyway) and get a better look at the beam, joists, and footings. I will try to get you a more accurate plan of the framing and maybe some photos. Thanks for your time.Brian

          7. DonK | Sep 29, 2008 12:38pm | #14

            You might try the local building department to see if there are filed plans for the original construction too.

            If so, they should have locations of the original footings/lollies. Then, just go back and see what's missing.

            Don K.

            EJG Homes     Renovations - New Construction - Rentals

          8. wooderson | Sep 30, 2008 02:28am | #15

            I thought about that too. On my next day off, I will add that to my list. Thanks.

          9. wooderson | Oct 03, 2008 03:59am | #16

            So I went to the town building department and they were very nice and helpful. I now have copies of all the original blue prints. The house is a Lincoln Log brand Cobble Creek model, which is an older and slightly smaller version of the Sandy Creek that they have on their website: http://www.lincolnlogs.com/floorplans.html.The plans show where the original 2'x2'x1' deep footings should be. They are at 9 feet from each exterior end wall and then 8 foot intervals from there with one on each side of the stair well. The current posts in the basement are not on the footings and there is four total posts, where there should be 7 (kinda scary). Now I just need to find out if the footings really are where the plans say they are. Any suggestions? During demo of the finished basement I found out that they built a stud wall against the block wall, fill the bays with pink fiberglass, then covered with thick plastic, then ran the drywall over that and tight against the slab. I took off one piece of drywall and it had thick mold covering the bottom 2 or 3 feet. The insulation was wet and the bottom plate had standing water on it. Sounds like another fun project.

          10. MikeSmith | Oct 03, 2008 04:52am | #17

            <<<<Now I just need to find out if the footings really are where the plans say they are. Any suggestions? >>>

            if you drill thru the slab...you should hit gravel / dirt at about 4 "

            if you drill and  don't  get dirt until about 12 " +... then you are over a footing...

            drop a plumb bob under the beam.....at the  layout  shown on your prints... and make your  exploratory drill holes

            stud walls on a basement slab should have a vapor barrier under them, and we also use a PT shoe

            any exterior wall has to protect  and separate the wall from the exterior concrete which can migrate moisture into the wall

            fun , huh ?Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

          11. wooderson | Oct 03, 2008 10:50pm | #18

            Yeah, this is great fun. My plan as of right now is to get the beam squared away, then rip out all the old finished basement walls, aka mold traps. When I get the money and the time I will finish the basement again using XPS against the walls and floor like in Andy Engel's article.Thanks, again.
            Brian

          12. Piffin | Oct 03, 2008 11:19pm | #19

            Remember to take pictures to share with the grandkids when you are telling them stories in your old age. 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          13. wooderson | Oct 05, 2008 03:53pm | #20

            The latest in my fun basement project is mice in the ceiling. It looks like they came in through the dryer vent which was the cheap plastic slinky type and had holes in it. Then the mice basically had the entire basement ceiling to play in. Taking that ceiling down is going in the stories for the grandkids vault. I have never seen so much mouse poop, mouse fur, and mouse skeletons.

          14. Piffin | Oct 05, 2008 10:29pm | #21

            Wear a mask - there can be diseases lurking in that cr@p 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

  2. Piffin | Sep 29, 2008 02:15am | #2

    "I am worried that if I try to jack up the center beam it is going to cause cracks in the tile grout and drywall job upstairs"

    Needs fixed. If you DON"T add supports, it will crack grout and drywall, and worse.

     

     

    Welcome to the
    Taunton University of
    Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
     where ...
    Excellence is its own reward!

  3. Ray | Sep 29, 2008 02:31am | #3

    jack it real slow and spread the load with a couple of jacks, take a whole day to complete the lift.  It shouldn't crack any more than if you left it sagging.  3/4 inch isn't much, my kitchen was about 1-1/4 inch down in the center of the exterior wall where the sill rotted out.  Only cracked one window but it took 2 days.



    Edited 9/28/2008 7:33 pm ET by Ray

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