Never used one of these, but the Gas Co here is really pretty outrageous. Not only is my gas bill to heat a 1000 sg ft shop around 70 bucks a month but even when the heat is off I’m charged about 30/mo as a minimum charge. And if I have them turn the gas off and on again each year it’s close to 200 in fees.
I keep the shop very low most times, like 40s but the heat is an overhead blower and I have very high ceilings so it’s very inefficient. I’m thinking about picking up a used kerosene salamander but not having any experience with them, don’t know. Smell an issue? The building is fairly air tight so I’m thinking that is likely a problem…
Just tired of getting hosed.
PaulB
Replies
I've used a propane salamander to take the edge off now & again. I wouldn't wanna leave it running for more than a few minutes tho' -- gets pretty fumey pretty quickly.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Everything fits, until you put glue on it.
yeah, I figgerred. Ah welllllllllllll... just need to make my own gas. Well, my own... ummm... nevermind.PaulB
http://www.finecontracting.com
I'd consider relocating the thermostat higher up and perhaps insulating the overhead door if your not using it much. Tighten the place up.
Shut the heater off and what happens besides the $30 a month for nothing? Kerosene especially white is not cheap. Everything else stinks to high heaven and your neighbors are bound to complain. Not to mention safety issues.
$180 for 5 or 6 months is a lot less than $420.
Yeah, clearly not one of my brighter ideas, just counting pennies ;)
MSBC
PaulB
http://www.finecontracting.com
Hey, it only takes one "bright" idea to burn down a house.
MKTF
Well, good thing I'm a dimwit...
GIAHPaulB
http://www.finecontracting.com
If you have the electric capacity, why not go with a forced air construction heater?
Keep the shop at 45 or 50 on the gas thermostate and when you need the shop, just turn up the electric heaters.
I was thinking about that but we have the second highest elec rates in the US, last time I heard :P Still, might make sense... gonna try and crunch some rough numbers.
(Where's Art?)
BTMCFTOOPaulB
http://www.finecontracting.com
Relocating the thermostat won't do much if anything, to reduce energy use. Keeping the same setpoint, but higher up means you maintain a higher average space temp ... and use more energy.
a small fan and duct to capture the heat off the ceiling and pump it back to the floor might help some?
heat ain't cheap... if you have to buy it
p
I have one of those heaters for my garage- 55k btu. I also have an inline thermostat that the cord gets plugged into.
The hot surface ignition models burn much cleaner than the spark ignition models... but it doesn't get rid of the smell entirely. There is unburned fuel emitted at each start/stop cycle.
There is a CO issue if there is no makeup air- so I always crack the door or open the window a bit.
My garage is uninsulated, so it runs a lot when it is cold out. The heater will easily burn through the 5 gallon tank in about 8 hours. A gallon of dyed kerosene from the gas station runs just under $3 last time I bought some. Needless to say, I use the heater sparingly. Edit: For comparison, the "odor free" kerosene sells for about $9 a gallon at the local big box.
Like me, if you want to get the heating costs down, the space has to be tightened up and insulated well. I want a 1" layer of spray foam with blown in cellulose over that. Money is an issue right now.
In slab radiant would have the cheapest operating costs. Could be done with a 2" pour over existing.
Based on the performance of the air source heat pump in my house (almost no gas use during October and November so far), I would put a mini split heat pump in my garage and a gas unit heater for backup... maybe a 5kw electric.
It costed me $40 to heat my 1400 sf ranch on a slab with the heat pump in October. Depending on outdoor temperature, I get up to $3 of heat energy from every $1 of electricity, and it gets to 1:1 at 26 degrees F, so that's when the gas comes on. Some of the mini split systems work well down to 0* F.
Edited 11/26/2009 10:15 am ET by danski0224
"Gas Co here is really pretty outrageous. Not only is my gas bill to heat a 1000 sg ft shop around 70 bucks a month but even when the heat is off I'm charged about 30/mo as a minimum charge"
This cracked me up :) My average gas bill at my business during the winter is $400 to heat 1800 sq ft. And that is an enclosed, insulated warehouse unit. I would give anything to have a $70 bill.
That being said, I have used the salamander types at home in my detached garage and I hated it. Noisy, smelly etc etc. With kerosene up around $3 a gallon, I cannot imagine it being less expensive than the $70 you are paying now.
Just my opinion,
Bill Koustenis
Advanced Automotive Machine
Waldorf Md
cant you go propane, buy your own tank, and have it filled in the summer when gas is low
I had much the same set-up in my last shop.
I bought a duct-booster fan -- a round fan in a short length of round duct -- wired it with a plug, and leaned 10’ of duct against the wall to suck heat down. That helped a lot.
Sphere was talking about much the same thing that someone else had posted that used a large fabric bag to distribute the warm air without drafts. You might check with him.
I also used barbecue-sized propane tanks with small (5,000 BTU?) heaters on top. WAY less smelly/messy than kerosene. I could jack the heat up quickly with these, then turn ‘em off.
Another issue besides CO is moisture: I’m told that a 100,000 BTU propane unit puts out a gallon of water per hour.
AitchKay
What do you have for insul in the ceiling?
Dunno really... the building is fairly new and seems to be built pretty well so I suspect it's better than marginal but no clue what's above the SR.PaulB
http://www.finecontracting.com
Well you could always screw 2" rigid foam board and tape it.
A super insulated ceiling can reduce floor to ceiling temp differential to less than a couple of degrees.
You know, that's an interesting idea... thanks.PaulB
http://www.finecontracting.com
Uh ... rigid insulation on the ceiling needs fire protection (e.g. drywall). Insulating anything would be a good option, though.
Also, my guess is that the insulation would likely increase floor to ceiling temp difference ... because it will reduce the heat loss through the ceiling leaving the air temp near the ceiling higher.
Edited 11/29/2009 9:14 am ET by Clewless1
You are right about the drywall but wrong about the temp diff.
If that was true then no insul would be even better and we know that is false. Super insulated homes (ie SIPs) have an almost even temp from floor to ceiling. Just ask Frenchy.
Even temps between floor and ceiling have nothing to do specifically w/ insulation. Given the exact same shop (and heating system) and one with and the other without insulation in the ceiling, you will likely see higher delta T in the insulated version, I think. The uninsulated version will tend to have higher heat loss at the ceiling ... therefore a lower temperature at the ceiling (since the inside surface temp of uninsulated construction will be significantly lower).
More insulation means a better opportunity to have even heat, but it doesn't guarantee it. Stratification depends on a number of factors/conditions.
I tend to agree w/ Pony ... a destratification fan. But first, actually measure the temperature difference between floor and ceiling to make sure you have thermal stratification ... which you likely do w/ a high ceiling and a ceiling mounted e.g. unit heater (which sounds like what you have). Without measuring it, though, you can't be sure that it is there and you might go through lots of girations fixing something that you ASSUME is 'broke'.
Questions: How high is the ceiling? High to me is like 15+ ft. What is the nature of the shop? Wood working? This may affect your choice of destratification fans/strategies (e.g. if it is dusty in there).
To add to this discussion, this relates somewhat to the guy that suggested moving the thermostat up higher. Destratification fans will get the warm air off the ceiling. Let's say you have 20 deg delta floor to ceiling (not uncommon) and you keep your stat at 70. The average temp is 80. Put in the fans, leave the stat alone and you end up w/ more like 70 deg avg temp ... much more energy efficient.
Also, a low tech thing to do is to check the angle and condition of the louvers that are on the unit. Often they get bent up and moved which contributes substantially to stratification. If you align them so they have a good downward initial 'thrust' for the air flow, it may help mix the air better.
Edited 11/29/2009 9:12 am ET by Clewless1
Yeah it's a w/w shop with high ceilings, around 15 ft I'd say... bad design IMHO considering the heat choice. I can tell you that climbing a step ladder to get something off a high shelf you can feel a dramatic difference. I'm gonna see about improving the air circulation...PaulB
http://www.finecontracting.com
Read my edit, too.
That is a high ceiling. Do you need the 15 ft? What goes on up there? Storage? Flipping boards? Where are you located (i.e. what is your climate)?
Where is the heater located ... at the ceiling or at e.g. the 8ft level?
I don't need that much height but it's a rental so there are severe limits on what they'll allow (not to mention my budget). I'm thinking I can rig a thermostat up to my big Jet air cleaner and mount it up high to circulate as well as filter... the unit heater is mounted around 10' up (in a corner no less :S ).PaulB
http://www.finecontracting.com
I made the mistake of using a salamander late last fall to take the chill off my shop one day. I ran it for the better part of the day and into the evening...All I'm going to say is that I got some unwanted time off from my other job. I wasn't feeling so hot thanks to the lovely effects of carbon monoxide.There's something I won't do again.Nick
Not sure what you mean by mounting _____ up high (the stat? the jet thingy?). You shouldn't mount the stat up higher. If you have stratification, just get the air mixed and leave the stat alone. Moving your thermostat will do little if anything and maybe increase your gas bill.
Conceptually, you could e.g. take an inline fan like a Panasonic 250 cfm (I think they make them larger) and attach it to the sidewall up high (they are made to mount easily like this). Run a duct down the wall and elbow out. Placed in a strategic location ... maybe even use two of these, you could get some nice mixing. Put some filtration on the intake, if needed. You can take it with you when you leave, too.
I didn't know it was a rental. That changes things.
Not sure what they are, but it sounds like e.g. a space heater you put on the floor. Probably not a good normal source for heat.
I used to heat the shop with a kerosene 100,000 btu torpedo heater. I use a gas fired blue flame heater now that is 30000 btu's. I would never use kerosene again for a shop. It did heat quickly ,was cheap to run but stunk the shop up. I blame the kerosene for respitory problems as well. About ten years ago I switched, no more health problems with natural gas.
Do you need the high ceilings? If not add a dropped ceiling and insulate above it.If the walls are not insulated ,I would insulate them too.
mike