The business section is stalled again and I’ve been waiting to ask this question.
How many in here have salesagents selling for them?
If you don’t, can you explain why you dont?
blue
Just because you can, doesn’t mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I’m a hackmeister…they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Replies
I just had this conversation with another business owner locally this weekend. I don't but wish I did. In talking with him (he has 2) I found I simply am not big enough to provide enough support/leads to keep a good one busy. And frankly if a good one came along and sold the amount he should we probably couldn't ramp up quick enough to handle the volume. That was the concensus he and I came to anyway. DanT
my sales agents work for free.
satisfyed customers
satisfyed associates.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
I don't. I just posted to "the one that got away" thread under business to explain why. Maybe you'll check it out.
I got one ...
I am he.
what's yer basic thots on numbers ... got enough biz to pay someone around $50K/yr? I know the reverse logic ... commission ... they earn their keep. But ya gotta pay them before the first sale.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
The other businessman I was talking about has a large landscape business and sells snow plows and commercial mowing equipment. He pays his 25k plus commision but each sales rep has another area. One is the parts manager and one is the service manager. Neither are full time area, both need 15 to 20 hours a week. Thats how he is able to justify 2 full time guys.
The neat thing is it gives him an army to cover home shows etc. Both he and his son plus the 2 sales guys. With me and my wife those things get old quick, me not being a good sitter anyway. DanT
No sales agent other than me and I'm not particularly happy with him.
I'm not even sure how I would go about compensating or finding one.
But while we are on the subject why are you asking? Would a salesman you hire be able to answer questions on the same level as you or your partner? If a salesman doesn't generate extra sales would he be worth anything? Can you teach a salesman to sell you as well as you can sell yourself?
When I establish enough sales to keep me busy full time with sales work then and only then would I want a sales pro around.
The combo salesman/(other contributing positon) is an idea worth a look.
I'm asking this question because over the years, I've always known that I needed a sales person selling for me, but I didn't know why. I actually remember approaching at least two different salespeople and attempting to recruit them. I wasn't successful, because I was such a poor salesperson myself, I didn't know how to sell them on the idea. I also lacked persistance.
So far, all the responses have been expected because I thought all the same things myself. I'm now looking at things a bit differently, probably because I've spent some serious time in sales trainings seminars. I used to dislike and distrust salespeople, but now I've come to understand their place in the process.
TMO asks "Would a salesman you hire be able to answer questions on the same level as you or your partner?
The answer is yes. A thorough sales presentation can be developed. Specific structural and craftsmanship questions are handled only by experts, such as Buck or Stan. These "experts" time is so valuable, that they can't possibly be chasing all over town day and night running down leads. Once the contracts are signed, their expertise becomes available. A sales agent is not designing and speccing out the job, he is creating an agreement to bring in the expert company that he represents.
If a salesman doesn't generate extra sales would he be worth anything?
The advice that I got from Don the young man that quickly built a successful roofing business, that is currently running on auto-pilot said this "Sales people drive your business. You've got some serious numbers to offer, money is a powerful motivator for good sales people. Hire them on as commission only and they'll get the job done".
TMO also asks : Can you teach a salesman to sell you as well as you can sell yourself?
Actually, a salesman can sell me far better than I can sell myself. That actually was/is the main point of this thread. In the selling business, there is a thing called third party validation. The sales agent is that third party and he can gush about my skills, personality, accomplishments, etc, but if I do it, I sound arrogant. I'd sound like a braggert. The sales presentation is set up in such a way that this "bragging/gushing" does occur. It establishes superiority in the market in a way that you couldn't possibly do yourself without some negative feelings being generated. Probably your wives are better salespeople about you, than you are for yourselves, but you don't know it.
Here's an example. I visited Bucksnort Billy while I was in NC last winter. He proudly, but humbly showed me around his house that he had built. He had done some beautiful trimwork in there and we discussed some of the techniques etc. He also built some beautiful furniture pieces. When I complimented them, he humbly brushed it off, but his wife spoke up and exclaimed on his behalf, "BB doesn't just build fruniture and cabinets" she then reverantly proclaimed "he's an Artist!".
Here's my thoughts on this subject especially with regard to retail selling. I'm making this point as if I was the Lady in the Kitchen getting an estimate: "If you are such a good craftsman, then why are you out at night selling"
Putting yourself in the sales agents shoes exposes you at your worst. They are trying to hire an expert carpenter and you show up as a salesagent. Everyone dislikes and distrusts salespeople....so now you're starting your relationship with them in a disagreeable manner.
The next question is, can I afford a salesperson. Rich Dad teaches us to ask the question in a different manner. He would ask "How can I afford a salesperson?" There is a right answer to that question, we just have to seek it.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Robert Kiyosaki
Rich Dad, Poor Dad
Bankrupt and homeless in 1985
You gave me the site . I dont have a clue if its true . He also has a write up about the book and that person.
http://johntreed.com/Kiyosaki.html
I realize that wasnt where you were going with this thread , but if you bring him up as witness than what about the cross examination?
Timothy
Tim, take that debate into the John T. Reed thread!
The question is: "How can I afford it?" That has nothing to do with Kiyosaki or Reed. The question stands on it's own without any need of qualifying it.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
I found the thread as I hadnt seen it . Theres still only two posts in it . Did find out how you felt about him though.
Carry on ,...
Timothy
Well said Blue,
Maybe the average carpenter can sell a used nail gun for 1/2 of it's cost but to sell and maximise profit that takes Skill, knowledge and ability..
For every 100 who try to make their living at selling only 1 will be still selling professionally 5 years later.. Get someone with more than 10 years of successful sales record and then you really stand a chance..
TMO,
from a sales pro,
yes! a good one will not only sell what you are and your best stuff chances are he will do a better job of selling than you ever could..
Can you paint a beautiful portrait? What about dental work? are you great at that? I'm a salesman I earn what I make and I know best how to close the deal and properly handle objections..
Do I know enough about you and your business? Absolutely I don't sell until all the chambers in the gun are loaded> (God I hate to feel foolish) but more important I know what not to say and I know what the signs are that you have a customer ready to sign..
Buck?
I've never gotten paid untill I sell something. On the other hand if I sell it you'd better pay me..
I've never gotten paid untill I sell something
Exactly Frenchy!
Lets look at the recent example of bath remodels at $2495. If that was the actual number that I needed, and I hired a professional sales agent to sell for me, I might have to bump up that price to pay a commission of 10 or 15%. To pay a 15% commission, I might have to offer that same package at $2935. That would allow me to pay a $440 commission. The question would be, could the professional salesperson sell as many installations at 2935 as an unskilled sales non-professional sell at 2495?
I'd bet on the sales professional. There are always exceptions, but most of the time, the sales professional will present the product in such a way to justify the costs. The painting of the picture, the satisfying of needs, the solving of problems is the hallmark of a professional salesperson. In the end, I doubt that a 440 upcharge would make a big difference in closing ratios.
If a 15% commission is too steep for a socio-economic area, then maybe a smaller commission of 8 to ten percent might need to be figured. Either way, I'm betting on the sales guy.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
You never got a drawl?
You never got product training when switching to a new company/product?
You never got paid while recieving that training?
What about your very first week with any company? Your first month? You just went to work happily for no pay and waited for the commission checks to roll in months later?
Your mortgage company just let ya slide when switching companies/products?
"I've never gotten paid until I sell something."
It's official Frenchy ... I now officially doubt you have ever actually worked in the field as a salesman at all. You are all smoke and mirrors .. that's sales tale for pure BS.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Jeff, I've done a small stint at sales. I never got paid until I closed a deal.
I'm not going to payanyone anything but straight commission. When they sell something, I'll pay them. No salary, no advances, no nothing!
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Just one small adjustment... you should pay them once YOU get paid.... and the check clears.
Back to the original question... do I have sales reps (at least I think that was the question)?
I do not right now... but can't wait until I can hire one or five. I am much more valuable in other capacities in my business plan. I will probably be able to hire a sales rep this year (all things willing). Productivity will increase substantially when I can do so.
My guys are good... but there are inevitable delays that occur when I am not managing, due to being on a sales call. Whether it be something as simple as assuring materials onsite... or as complex as a customer change that requires a completely new scope of work.
Between the time required for travel, the actual sales call, time on the phone, etc... I spend about 50% of my time on sales. That is not good... and I know it. It has to change to meet the long-term goals.
Edited 3/24/2005 11:34 pm ET by Rich from Columbus
I feel the same way. But is it a matter of volume? (hate to use the term size here, lol) Do you feel you need to hit a certain level of dollar volume to support your sales guy or is it a matter of being able to handle the work generated. I really am conflicted about this whole deal. I think a sales person would really help me but at least at this point I think I only can handle a half of one. What do you think? DanT
Dan, I met with my target salesperson last week. I pointed out that at this point, he might only be running one lead per week. Essentially, it's part of a part time job.
Our focus has been the wholesale market and we will continue to work in that arena till the retail side of our business takes over. It might seem silly to hire a salesperson for one lead per week, but I see it differently for the various reasons already mentioned. My sales trainings have indicated that it's critical that I have someone else represent our company and sell me.
I also want to start the retail side of the business in a "right way", so I can put it on auto-pilot someday. The struggle might be slightly more difficult in the beginning, but the payoff is in the end.
Time will tell. One thing I know for sure...it never worked well WITHOUT a salesperson!
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
DanT,
If your aren't large enough then perhaps you should get together with several others to hire and keep one guy busy.. maybe yoi split up the city or territory and only work in a given area.
That thought crossed my mind but I don't know anyone else currently that is wanting to have a salesperson. And frankly if you divided where I live in half the sales person would make very little. Town is only 38k and county not much more. DanT
DanT
If you have to do it yourself (and I advocate that as much as I advocate do it yourself dental surgery) Then by all means get the proper training.. spend some time with a professional. A good one, one who has a great close ratio and able to market a variety of products.. Realize the result will be as good as your best attempts to do a self portrait in oils, (example void if you have artistic skills)
While there are a variety of books on the subject I've never seen someone who's read all the books do well untill they develop the proper techniques and learn to read body language, read eyes, and understand the signs that mean you have a deal..
The best advice I ever got was from a book called Shut Up and Sell..
Frenchy, there are two different books titled shut up and sell. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/104-4200335-8215968
Which author?
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Jeff,
Quite a few sales reps only make minimum wage while training... and have no draw or salary after training.
They get larger commissions that way... and the REALLY good ones want it that way.
I used to pay my sales reps (former life) a minuscule salary (only to compensate their customer service requirements during transition to the true CS reps). Beyond that... commission only. No draws. Held 15% of gross commissions for "rainy day fund" and charge-backs.
A good sales rep knows he can make it up in commissions. And a good sales rep has a substantial war chest for job changes, downturns, etc.
Jeff,
Wow! What you don't understand about my profession.. A draw is only given if and only if there isn't an established market for a product.. Usually it amounts to out of pocket expenses to sell the product,
To put it in carpenter speak, I'll buy your gas untill your earn a commision selling my services..
If you have already got a marketed name/ well known then a draw isn't paid..
Yes that's exactly what happens as a beginning salesman. Once you establish a reputation and have a track record there are inducements given to get you to switch loyalties. Thus if you want a proven product to sell your services you need to make the switch worth while..
If you were to hire someone with a well proven track record he will need some inducement to work for you (a risk) rather than continue where he is...Thus you can offer a base salary plus a draw and a commision schedule.. I doubt many here would be in a position to make that sort of commitment.. Rather you tend to select those without the track record or history of success and hope they will work out for you..
A little primer on selecting a great salesman. First don't let superficial things affect your decision. The well dressed good looking guy may turn out to be a bad salesman or poor closer.. The best salesman I ever trained had a terrible stammer and was anything but good looking or well dressed.. He was agressive though. He'd been working as a mechanic and injuried his hand. Rather than grant him disability the company asked me to let him ride with me. I noted his neogotation skills and how attentive he listenened.
Tell me something Jeff, you keep saying that I BS, have you any proof of it? Stop by and I'll show you my track record, the plaques on the wall, the paper record of my sales history. Letters of achievement and employment records..
I've made a living as a professional salesman for over thirty Years and sold stuff for over 50 . Punch the zip code 55391 into your realestate section and look at the price of the average home. $20-25 million dollar homes are not unusual or the most expensive.. I got out of the service with little more than the shirt on my back and this is where I live, think you could do it as a carpenter?
Now, now Frenchy....it looks like you took the bait.
I know that you are a competent salesperson just by listening to your advice, which I tend to agree with. You consistently say the right things and offer intuitive advice that only an accomplished salesperson would think of.
You should know by now that you won't be able to sell everyone all of the time. Obviously Jeff isn't buying.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Blue,
Hopefully my answers weren't offensive and I certain don't mean to offend.
On rare occasions I've found the direct and blunt approach to work.. usually when all other paths have failed to work.
Frenchy, I don't know why you're willing to stand in there and trade punches. Nothing good can come of it.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
First .. let's remember .. U never made one dollar unless U sold something first.
Pretty sure that's what Ya said.
Working from there ... U and full of bull sh!t.
and your advice to Blue was based on that very comment ...
Now ...
"Wow! What you don't understand about my profession.. "
That's nice. But I was and still am your profession.
"Usually it amounts to out of pocket expenses to sell the product, "
So my saying he'd need about a years worth of top-dog sales guy salery at the redy was .. uh ... what's the word ... correct?
"Yes that's exactly what happens as a beginning salesman."
See above .. thanks for twice saying I'm right while I don't understand your "profession".
"If you were to hire someone with a well proven track record he will need some inducement to work for you "
Not that I tire of this ... but see above ... again.
"I doubt many here would be in a position to make that sort of commitment.. Rather you tend to select those without the track record or history of success and hope they will work out for you.. "
No sh!t. But U suggest going full steam ahead ... while I question the logic of hiring a newbie. You are one hell of a biz manager. Me .. I'll take my advice.
"A little primer on selecting a great salesman. "
How about instead ... U go F yourself? I'm pretty sure I have a handle on such matters. Oh .. sorry .. it's "your profession" ... not mine? And oh yeah .. go F yourself.
"Stop by and I'll show you my track record, the plaques on the wall, the paper record of my sales history. Letters of achievement and employment records.. "
Well ... as any real salesman knows ... that's worth about a pile of sh!t.
"I got out of the service with little more than the shirt on my back and this is where I live, think you could do it as a carpenter? "
Gee .. sorry to group U with the average "carpenter" ...
Didn't know U were so ... special.
Guess what. I don't care. Stop trying to impress me. U keep pissing me off and I'll get into what ever line of sales U are in and steal away all yer best customers.
Now ... back to Blues Question. Yes, U do need cash in the bank to draw and pay a top notch sales Pro. And anyone else is an amateur wasting everyones time.
BTW ... go F yerself.
Jeff
"A draw is only given if and only if there isn't an established market for a product"
Oh, U mean like Blue and his new framing adventure?
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
A little anger there Jeff? :-) DanT
Yeah, I thought Jeff seemed a bit OTT there too.
To interested bystanders, it would seem that Frenchy has a lot of useful stuff to say. Sounds like he knows how to sell stuff. I can't remember reading anything from him recently that suggested he might be a bit short of work, either
John
eah, I thought Jeff seemed a bit OTT there too
There's got to be some hidden history there. Frenchy didn't say anything to create a response like that!
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
I didn't think it was over the top. I thought it was funny. But I am a JB fan so maybe I am slighted. DanT
"To interested bystanders..."
Frenchy et al.
Yeah, I'm an "interested bystander" on this thread. WHY? Because I used to be a professional salesperson for years...and this was before I ever returned to college for my engineering degree and embarking on a new career path.
(And like Frenchy, I still have copies of "salesperson of the month" award certificates, my original licenses, etc. cause they're akin to a professional having their degree framed and posted on the wall. They are evidence of where you've been, what you've done...your CREDENTIALS.)
From everything I've read, and as much as I've had the pleasure of meeting JB and his family and having enjoyed hanging with Jeff and having a cold brew with him, I have to weigh in and say that I think Frenchy has been right on the mark in all that he's written and would concur with the advice he's provided, point by point.
FWIW: I used to be a licensed insurance agent - worked for a fairly well known company called: John Hancock Mutual. Later, after moving to another state and passing NASD exam, was a licensed commodities broker. Of all the things that I have lost, I miss my mind the most!
Jeff,
The first person to lose their temper loses..
In the future try to make complete sentences without resorting to the use of profanity. Profanity is the sign of an ignorant mind attempting to express itself..
Ok, now you have crossed my personal sacred line. Profanity is a good thing, maybe the best of things. You can use it anywhere and anytime and feel better. Well, at least that works for me. DanT
PS. Thanks for the advice.
"In the future try to make complete sentences without resorting to the use of profanity."
no.
ok .. that's settled. Now ... U still say Blue should try and hire a sales pro with absolutely no money in the bank to pay them ... since as U said ... U never got paid unless U sold something first?
just plain bad advice. Blue can follow it if he so chooses ... but doesn't make it right.
He's not going to find any real sales pro that'll work first then hope to get paid latter.
Just like the real world ... the sales world doesn't work that way either.
I get pissed off and resort to profanity when I see such stupidity bantered about. Luckily for all involved here ... I never did resort to anything profane. Carry on blowing your own pretend horn ...
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Jeff, Your kinda missing something here and I'm not sure what.
I offered a guy that I know can sell the opportunity to take control of my sales department. I laid it all out, he's seriously thinking about it. The guy is a workaholic and to work with me, he'd have to lay down one of his other projects. At this point it's 50/50.
WhY? Because the lure of the numbers. I've got a lead carpenter that can suprvise/produce mabe 50-100k per month. Those numbers would add up to 1 million dollars or more. If the sales guy can sell it, we can find another lead. I know of at least one more that would love to work with us.
We also have been offered the services of the decorative concrete guy. This guy is a gem, but he's like all typical tradesmen, he leaves a lot of money on the table. The guy produced 160,000 sf of concrete last year, about half of that was tear out and replace. He does the tear outs free...doesn't charge a penny more. In fact, he prefers the tearouts! I'm figuring that I have potentially another 500k available for sale using only this one specialty contractor.
So, I pitch the deal to the sales guy this way "I'll cut 15% and earmark it toward marketing and sales. You'll be the manager, you figure out everything...how to market, how much to pay, whom to hire to sell...everything....I'm a carpenter...I know I don't know how to sell or market or manage salespeople"
He's interested. Why? It could be the 15% of the 1.5 million potential. Or, it could be because we aren't limited to only one specialty concrete contractor...the guy trained a buddy who is priced the same! We could hire two or three lead carpenters. I could easily keep up the addtion/buildup framing for three leads. There's a lot of money on the table.
There's also one very important thing there that you would instntly recognize if you've read the book "First Break All the Rules" about managing. It's the power, recognition and respect I gave him when I offered him the whole marketing and sales enchilada. I've read the book and I know what the surveys have said...money is NOT the #1 motivator.
You are trying to make this all about money. I suggest you pick up the book.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
if U have one guy that can make it work .. go for it.
But if U were to run an ad for salesmen ... then say at the end of the interview ...
Oh yeah ... No pay till U sell something first ... you're gonna be sitting in an empty room all by yourself.
"You are trying to make this all about money."
yes I am! U are talking about hiring a salesman ... guess what the motivation is?
it's certainly not a plaque on the wall. Salesmen are motiveted by one thing ... Money!
Good luck ... take my free info for what it's worth ... but this plan ain't going no where unles U have a pocket fulla cash to dig into.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
But if U were to run an ad for salesmen
I'm not running an ad. When I asked the guy that has already built a successful business how to get my sales guy, he told me to steal one that is already selling. I'm taking his advice.
Like I said, it's 50/50. In the meantime, I guess I gotta do like the rest of us in here...sell it myself. I don't like my closing odds, but then again, I might surprise myself.
Incidently, the successful mentor also told me to hire them "Commission only". He said that with the kind of money we have on the table, the good sales guys will figure out how to get it.
Also, understand Jeff, the guy would only have to devote one day a week to chase the leads. I gotta admit...I'd be seriously looking at that myself....
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
My wife was running three companies . A plant in Texas and a plant here that competes against each other. She traveled to Memphis to meet a sales person over there to employ. He thought he was going to be working for Mid South which is here . She said no, you will be working for the plant in Texas. He told her he wasnt interrested at all! There is quite a bit of difference between the two companies . He actually walked out of the meeting .
A year later he calls her and says hes looking again. She sets the rate of" base pay " for him selling for the Texas facility. He says no again. This time the base rate of pay wont hire him. He wants a lot more . She says that he is supposed to have an established accounts to bring with him and he wont need a big draw. He flatly turns her down saying she will have to pay for his ability and those accounts. She paid the price and hired him . He worked for a year and was fired by her in a sales meeting. He didnt produce his end of the bargin. Seems he sold her a line of bull sh^t. He made some nice draws and she lost money on the venture.
Im just observing here , but Ive got mixed feelings about draws. She does give a salary to new people being trained in sales and will for two years. Then they must make like a little bird and fly from the nest. She will cut it off if she sees their not going to make it. So in a way if they get money as a base , they still have to produce it to get to stay. I dont think its free money.
Timothy
Blue
A slightly off topic question but, can/will a salesman build a customer base for me, or will this person simply chase leads I provide them?
My main problem seems to be getting my name out there. I have satisfied customers and dependable subs, but I dont seem to be able to stack any substantial work.
I feel that I am capable of running more than one job at a time but have yet to have the opportunity. Can a salesman help or do I need to go some other route.
I'm still pretty green on the business side of things but i'm learning.