Saw Stop – worth 2x the cost of a saw?
On NPR today they were talking about this new gadget called SAW STOP that can detect when a finger touches the blade and instantly stop the blade. They estimate that it would double the cost of a table saw.
This seems like a great idea for use in High School wood shops especially, but I wonder how many people would be willing to invest in this extra cost for use on their own saw?
I hope this hasn’t already been discussed here. I did a search and wasn’t able to find any discussion on this.
Here is the link for the Saw Stop:
http://www.sawstop.com/howworks.htm
I have to admit that when I heard them talking about it I was very skeptical, but after watching the test with a hot dog I think it might actually work, doubt I would actually ever test it out on purpose.
I was wondering what your thoughts were… would you pay for the extra cost if this actually worked? Would this cause most accidents by allowing people to become less careful around their own saw and continue to use those bad practices while using other saws?
Replies
I've read a little about this saw. I think its a great idea. I thought that "Saw Stop" said it would only add about $100 to the price. The bad side of this saw is that you have to replace the whole cartridge should you set it off. But I guess its worth $50 or $60 compared to losing a finger.
I've read a little about this saw. I think its a great idea. I thought that "Saw Stop" said it would only add about $100 to the price. The bad side of this saw is that you have to replace the whole cartridge should you set it off. But I guess its worth $50 or $60 compared to losing a finger.
Its worth lot more than $50.000.00 to those who lost a finger.
Ycf
I think the Saw Stop is the best invention in woodworking history.
YCF.
Chad
Originally the makers of Saw Stop tried to market their product to the established saw manufacturers.
Couldn't sell it to any so they decided to produce their own saw, I haven't seen one for sale anywhere yet.
We could always test the thing out on convicts!
I have read good things about it if that helps.
Doug
Edited 12/9/2004 10:40 pm ET by Doug@es
If memeory serves, FH actually had a small article about this system a couple of years back. It's still not being mass-marketed because the leading manufacturers of table saws, Delta, Jet, etc. didn't want to pay the licensing fee to use the technology.
I think it has become one of those economic oxymorons where supply will actually lead to demand, leading to more supply.
"Originally the makers of Saw Stop tried to market their product to the established saw manufacturers.Couldn't sell it to any so they decided to produce their own saw,"There was one intermediate step.The petetion the Product Safety Commission to recall all saws that did not have Saw Stop.I.E. force it on people."I have read good things about it if that helps."Have you read anything "real good things" about is as a SAW?
Real world reports on the saw's operation as a saw? You won't have to wait long. I'll post impressions somewhere on the Web (maybe not here because I don't like to double post) in a week or two, and follow up from time to time as the saw ages.
All I can report on right now is why I bought the saw. I believe in the technology. IMO the Petition is a moot point because there is no way that the CPSC will mandate a technology that grants monopoly status to a single patent holder and isn't already widely available at a reasonable price. I gave the saw a long and careful look at IWF 2004 in Atlanta this past August. Even without the brake it is an impressive machine. Thoughtful design. Smooth operation. Innovative features. Good fit and finish.
the inventor claims (oh btw- he's also a lawyer- so no surprise there) that his petition would not have mandated HIS specific technology, it only would have required all saws to have more or less the same ability to stop the blade. how convenient- for him.
also, there was ALOT more to it than the established companies thinking the license fees were too expensive. they would have had to virtually completely re-engineer their saws from the ground up- this is not by any stretch of the imagination a cheap, simple retrofit job. more realistic estimates would be at least several hundred dollars per saw with massive retooling costs amortized over many years and many, many units (but which the mfrs would have to pay up front, of course). are liability insurance and lawyers cheaper? maybe.
read the recent review in FWW Tools & Shops "I did run into an electrical problem with the test machine. Twice it turned off inadvertently, without my having hit the switch. The quality-control staff at SawStop will have to solve this problem." (my emphasis) The QC folks or the engineers? the article also mentions the CPSC has not issued a final ruling... it has the price as '$2,499 plus fence' that's right, a decent fence will set you back another $200-400. so even when building a saw from scratch, they weren't able to come even close to their original estimates from a few years ago of 'only $100-$150' more than a regular type unit. a 5hp powermatic 66 with a 50" accu-fence is $2,299 on amazon with free shipping(?). a comparably equipped SawStop is $2,499 + $200 for 5hp + $329 for 52" fence, for a grand total of $3,028 plus what- a couple hundred bucks ship'g? the difference is getting close to a grand.
(and bill- i know you're probably well aware of much of this, i just didn't want to make 3 or 4 posts to answer everybody directly)
I first read about the SawStop on rec.woodworking newsgroup. I went to the website, looked at the data, thought it was interesting. Then I read that the inventor was attempting to ram this thing down everyone's throats by trying to get legislation passed that would force all manufacturers to put this device (or a similar, probably by then patented, device) on all saws sold in the country.
No thanks.
I grant that your fingers (or whatever else you touch to the spinning blade) are probably worth much more than the cost of the cartridge. But what about malfunctions? Will the thing jam up and stop every time I want to cut wet PT lumber? Is there an OVERRIDE SWITCH? What happens when I want to cut frozen pork roast with my table saw? Suppose I WANT to cut through a hot dog?
I think it's great that the technology exists. I think every effort should be made to insure protection for employees of companies that use table saws, and students in schools (are there still woodworking programs in schools?). However, mandating the use of this is as bad as mandating the use of seatbelts and motorcycle helmets. Sure, it's safety equipment, but don't MAKE ME use it - give me the option to protect myself. If I'm smart (and can afford it), I will. if something like that is mandated, you can bet I'll never own a new table saw for as long as I live.
And the cost IS an object. I paid less than $1000 for a brand-new, in the crate, 3 HP Delta Unisaw with a Mule Accusquare fence. I have outfitted the saw with every reasonable safety device (blade guard, splitter, dust collection, finger boards, crosscut sled) that I can, and my hands get nowhere near the blade. So you save your fingers. I can't wait to see the inventor get himself sued when the machine throws a sharp chunk of wood at somebody's chest at 140 MPH and the victim claims that the saw was designed to protect him from injury.
What the heck happened to personal responsibility for one's own actions? Stupidity seems to be the word immediately preceding lawsuit, and the SawStop is not designed to prevent stupidity, or carelessness. So, who's buying? Hope it works.
"What the heck happened to personal responsibility for one's own actions? Stupidity seems to be the word immediately preceding lawsuit, and the SawStop is not designed to prevent stupidity, or carelessness. So, who's buying? Hope it works."Jon,
That's exactly it. I think this type of safety feature can actually lure people into adopting unsafe working habits that intentionally put them in harms way thinking that this device can save them from their own recklessness. When I saw the first mention of the feature in Fine Woodworking a couple of years ago I thought it was possibly a good thing. But now it seems just like another gimmick used to sell some product to an undereducated unexperienced consumer. I don't mean to bash the safety conscious individual who may see the benifits of such a device. I just feel that safety is always thought of after something happens, when it is too late.Safe habits develop with respect and understanding of the machinery. Just because the blade will stop if you nick your finger doesn't mean that it can also save you from a dangerous kickback or a small offcut hurled from the blade.I have always felt that if I am performing an operation that makes me feel uneasy then it is usually not a good idea to do so. And knowing that my fingers are safe because the blade is guaranteed to stop if I touch it just gives a false sense of security and may lead one into dangerous habits.Besides bandsaws are much better for slicing roasts.J.P.
j.p.,I agree with your comments. The hardest thing is to increase the machine's safety without increasing the inattention of the operator or the obstacles to productivity. So many of the great advances have become invisible because they are everywhere. Like tilting arbors. However, even a nicked finger is worth avoiding, although it strikes less terror into men's hearts than the prospect of amputation.The SawStop device will not protect against kickback, but a Euro-style riving knife will. If the riving knife is no higher than the blade apex, it will not have to come off the saw very often, as it can stay on for non-through cuts. Part of their increased cost is due to the riving knife, I'll bet. The Laguna saw is about $3K, and is a fairer comparison because it has one, too.What I and everyone else here want to see are the reports from the first-adopters. We want to know about precision, features, power - the whole package. Do these guys love their new saws, or do they tolerate them because of the safety device? If they get the whole saw right, they will succeed. If not, they will remain in a small niche. I want them to succeed, but $3K is a lot for a cabinet saw without a proven history.Bill
Bill,
Although I have not been a direct recipient of kickback, I have seen it happen to others. Even the most careful and experienced woodworkers can make a mistake. This is why I choose to have a splitter on my table insert in order to prevent kickback. Although my splitter doesn't bevel with the blade I am always aware of the blade and its relationship to the work and my fingers.I think that a riving knife is one of the most important safety features of European saws and can't understand why Delta and Powermatic don't include this as a standard safety of their saws.For me though, I am not sure of this new technology. Who is to say all of the bugs have been worked out of this system. I for one would be pissed if this thing shut down in the middle of a cut and I had to totally disassemble the saw just to get it going again. Time is money.I would rather spend my money on something like the Mini Max sliding table saw which is to me, more useful, safe, and not much more than the SawStop.Only time will tell if that saw is worth the money. Seems like a risky proposition to me, but what do I know?J.P.
Edited 12/10/2004 11:35 pm ET by j.p.
Bill
I have not even heard of anybody that has physically seen one of the saws!
I am curious about the saw, don't know whether or not I would ever opt to purchase one though.
That much coin will get me something that I need worse.
I guess if I am in the market for a new table saw then it would get at the very least my attention.
I will be interested to see what these people who are going to have the opportunity to use one have to say about them, still not sure I will look to buy one though.
Doug
Edited 12/10/2004 10:54 pm ET by Doug@es
I can see it now. Some yahoo proudly shows off his new finger saver and sticks his finger ibnto the running blade after a couple of beers, proclaiming the infamous last words, "Hey guys, Watch this!"And one of two things happens then...A) The safety feature chooses that moment to failB) The rest of the guys watching lose their lunch at the very prospect of what they are about to see.
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A) The safety feature chooses that moment to fail
That's my biggest fear, nothing is infallible, so I assume there will be some instances of failure that will translate into law suits.
Of course the alternative is what we have now, you know your going to lose the finger if you get it into the blade. At least the other way you have a sporting chance.
Doug
LOL, never thought of it as a sport
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i read about this awhile ago, i think its double the price because they havto make their own but just 1 or 2 hundred if companies(such as delta , powermatic, etc.) would actually implement them.
I think its a great idea but is that true that you havto replace somthing every time it happens??
certantly its a small price to pay in trade for a thumb or finger but the way it works if i remember correctly is that as soon as anything that contucts electricity touches the blade, it stops.
great if its a finger but if are cutting aluminum and forget to turn off the safety feature it would be a PITA to havto replace somthing..
I think its a great idea but i personally wouldnt go out of my way to use it.. [jmo]
measure once
scribble several lines
spend some time figuring out wich scribble
cut the wrong line
get mad
It has circutry that can tell the difference between flesh and metal.
"Part of their increased cost is due to the riving knife, I'll bet. "
the added cost of designing one in from the get go should be virtually negligible. re-engineering one into an existing design or figuring out a retrofit could run into big bucks, but as long as you're building a new saw the riving knife is no big deal from a manufacturing standpoint.
m
Taunton ought to include this saw in the next test - that would give the idea more visibility. I'd pay an extra $100 to increase safety.
Fine Wood Working's latest issue of TOOLS & SHOPS featured this saw in an article on page 66 of that issue.
The cost mentioned in the article was approx. $2,500.
Considering the saw resembles my Powermatic 66 in both size and horsepower (the SAW STOP resembles a well built cabinet saw rather than a portable, contractor's table saw) I'd say the price is well worth it. I paid $2,300 for my 66 several years back.
FWW stated the cost of a replacement cartridge for a 10 inch saw blade was only $59, but, the blade definately gets ruined in the stopping process so you have to figure in that new blade cost as well.
Having accidently cut off the tip of my thumb ( on a Craftsman contractors table saw) which resulted in some plastic surgery, I'd say the cost of that saw is waaaay cheaper than the medical bill I was handed.
I think every school should be equipped with this saw...period. The saw also incorporates a riving knife....something no other U.S. mfg has yet to incorporate...but is definately needed .
There are Vo-Tech schools closing across the country due to worry over student accidents and impending liability lawsuits.....this is one tool that could possibly help to change such attitudes.
If I had the money, I'd build and promote this machine in a heart beat....the fact that other reputable companies shy away from this concept shows directly where their conscience lies....with the money! Corporate greed wins out over worker safety...what a shame!
Davo
Simphono mazi sou ekato tis ekato.
I' agree with you 100%.
YCF
what is a riving knife?-->
measure once
scribble several lines
spend some time figuring out wich scribble
cut the wrong line
get mad
A riving knife is very similar to that of a table saw splitter...but a riving knife is contoured to hug more closely to the saw blade...it stays in better alignment with the actual sawblade and its job is to eliminates kickback. A riving knife can be installed or removed in a matter of seconds without any tools.
New aftermarket splitters ( Beiseymer and Delta) that sell for approx $125 are an attempt to duplicate the features of the riving knife.
Davo
i suppose i ought to try a splitter or a writhing knife. I've never used one before.-->
measure once
scribble several lines
spend some time figuring out wich scribble
cut the wrong line
get mad
Like Davo said, plus this: A riving knife IS a splitter. The reason it hugs the blade so closely is that it rises and falls as the blade does. The ideal setup can be had on many of the portable tablesaws by modifying the factory splitter, but not on a Unisaw or PM 66, because of the internal geometry.Laguna (an American company) sells a saw with a riving knife standard. It is made for them in Europe. SawStop plans to have their saw made for them in Taiwan. Same idea. I am very interested to see it for myself once it is available. I teach in a woodworking program, and agree that these saws would be good for schools. (With adult students, however, the student should share the cost of replacing the blade and cartridge, lest they come away with the idea that carelessness is totally without personal consequences.)Bill
I like the idea of this in places where a person works for hours on end and with bordom comes slopiness and an accident, or like some employees sometime stay out too late the night before... I have never seen the saw stop, I was wondering how they keep the nut from spinning off when the blade is stopped so quickly? I saw a saw with a brake through off a dado set (all over the shop), the dado set had too much weight and inertia to stop right away.
Hi back to you,The nut stays put because the "brake" acts directly on the blade by jamming a chunk of aluminum into the teeth, while simultaneously lowering the blade below the table. Ruins the blade while saving you from serious injury. I can see how an arbor brake would unscrew the nut, though.Bil
FHB mentioned this device several years ago. If you go out and find a copy of FWW's most recent Tools and Shops issue, you'll find a two page review of the saw.
As somone who once spent several thousand dollars having three fingers reassembled due to a tenth of a second's stupidity, I'd say that it's worth the modest upcharge.
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
A few notes.
The 2x figure might be accurate if the technology was installed on a cheap jobsite saw. The difference is much less on a cabinet saw.
Brake forces are harmlessly turned into heat in various parts of the saw. The arbor block bumper, belt slippage, brake pawl, and blade get most of the energy. The forces are substantially spread out by a specially designed pivoting arbor block that rotates down onto a bumper during brake activation. There is no damage to any components except for the blade and brake cartridge/pawl. The saw that SawStop uses to test different blade/user/approach/orientation/etc. conditions has been fired over a thousand times. It it still aligned per factory spec and running smoothly.
The piece in FWW Tools & Shops is more of an article than a review. They focused almost exclusively on the saw's safety features. That's good except that most of us only consider safety as one of many buying criteria. The FWW piece didn't give any impression of the saw's quality, features, value, convenience, or other key aspects. The reader was left with no sense for how the saw would work in their shop. Maybe FHB will take the time to do a real review. Meanwhile, interested woodworkers should keep an eye on woodnet.net and sawmillcreek.org. A couple woodworkers who are active in the forums (me being one) are about to take delivery of SawStop cabinet saws.
If anyone has technical questions about the saw I can take a shot at answering them. I am not affilated with SawStop other than having ordered one of their saws.
i think it kinda works like a airbag.when your finger touches it -bam it stops. when you think how fast that has to be to only let a tooth or 2 hit your finger,it has to stress something in the saw that would have to be replaced. now if it's my finger it saves,who cares if it makes the saw junk. but if anything else set it off i'd be pretty p.o.. looks like this technolgy would work on jointers etc. there is probably lots of guys missing 3 finger tips on a jointer that woulds pay a couple hundred if that cutter would have stopped. larry
hand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
yeah! jointer.. thats a tool that needs a saw stop. Especially if you could retro-fit one into a tool. i have a friend with a really old jointer that has a square drum and ive heard that it(that particular tool) has eaten 3 fingers of 3 diff. people.. kinna creeps me out-->
measure once
scribble several lines
spend some time figuring out wich scribble
cut the wrong line
get mad
There have been several articles about this. it can cost four hundred now but with everyone using it, it would wdd less than a hundred to cost of a TS.
BTW, I can report from experience that the cost of sticking a finger into a TS or MS blade exceeds four hundred bucks.
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