Replies

1. 
   Piffin | Jun 14, 2003 05:57am | #1

   Since regular pipe staging sets at seven feet apart, I have to assume that at ten feet, you have jury rigged something for cross bracing that you are not telling us about. The 2x12 planks canhandle you AND your wife, but the staging set sounds shaky to me. That's what he must've been warning you about.

   .

   Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   Dinosaur | Jun 14, 2003 07:46am | #4

   Piff--

   Where do you find 7' scaffolding? My frames are 60"x60" and the crosses lock two frames together at exactly 10' apart. This is what almost everyone around here uses, except for commercial guys who do a lot of sidewalk setups in town and have to provide walk-unders.

   We also have some half-high sections; they are 30"Hx60"W for the end frames; the cross-braces are slightly shorter (of course) but still lock two frames at 10' apart. You can mix half- and full-height frames in the same setup, which is real useful when you have to set up on a slope.

   The biggest bitch with this scaffolding is that even with the end tits removed, the 60x60 frames just don't want to lie flat in a pickup; so if you run a cap (as everyone does here) you need a trailer to carry more than two or three sets of the danged things around.

   Dinosaur

   'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?

   Edited 6/14/2003 12:51:29 AM ET by Dinosaur

1. 
   Shoeman | Jun 14, 2003 01:55pm | #5

   Interesting post - to see all the talk of 10' scaffold.

   All the scaffold I'm used to seeing here in Minnesota has always been 7' long.

   Rest of the country - what is the most common scaffold length where you live?

1. 
   FrankB89 | Jun 14, 2003 02:19pm | #6

   7' and 10' are equally common from my experience.  Depends on need, or whether you want to wrestle 10 footers around as opposed to the easier to handle sevens.

   To an earlier post, wood scaffold plank cut in a mill is a special lumber grade that limits defect and slope of grain. 

2. 
   JasonKehl | Jun 14, 2003 02:22pm | #7

   5' x7' stuff here in Kenora, Ontario everybody all the time, even the rental places. We always use standard 2x10 planks, one or maybe 2 not the best platform but all the boss will provide. Most others use rough planks or trhe proper ladder type ones with the hooked feet.

      Jas

3. 
   seeyou | Jun 14, 2003 02:35pm | #9

   If you look at scaffolding supplier catalogs, most manufacturers offer cross braces to create either 7' oc or 10' oc setups. I would imagine the 7' oc has become more the standard due to the problem stated in the original post. Standard 2x lumber is gonna be a little flimsy spanning 10' (and you'd need 12' lengths). 10' aluminum planks are available, but hard to transport and erect.  I have 4 pairs of old (but still in good condition) scaffold that has proprietery braces that space it at 10' oc. It's handy on the occasion that you need to span 10', but 14' ( two setups of 7' oc ) won't fit.  As far as the hauling of scaffold, a trailer works much better than the pickup bed.

2. 
   Piffin | Jun 14, 2003 03:11pm | #10

   Well Dino, looks like we started something with my simpole off-hand comment. I was as surprised to see that they can sell ten foot stuff as you were that there is seven footers.

   Honestly, in working through four states in 35 years, I have never seen tens and didn't know they existed.

   For the uprights, both five foot and six foot heights are common here, with half frame available too tho I don't know what heght they are. My framer provides his own frames. I use pump jacks..

   Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   stonefever | Jun 14, 2003 05:14pm | #11

   And then there are those Baker's Racks.

   Essentially 30" by 6.'  Each set comes with it's own platform & wheels.  Integral locking braces.  One can stack, but over two platforms require an outrigger bracing on the bottom platform.  These are great for indoor work, or light outdoor stuff.  One guy can set them up and they easily roll through doorways.

   I bought two sets for my home projects.

2. 
   Dinosaur | Jun 15, 2003 04:23am | #15

   Yeah, it's an interesting topic. For instance, I'm always impressed by bricklayers who scaffold up and over roofs to build or repair chimneys.

   I saw an old photo one time in a history book of a construction site in the early 1800s, I think. What was fascinating to my modern eye was that the building--a big one, it's a nationally famous structure, something like Philadelphia City Hall, but CRS has made me forget its name--was completely covered in wooden, hand-built scaffolding. Of course! But we tend to forget, it's so easy for us now. I've also heard of job sites in China, even today, where all the scaffolding is made of bamboo, LASHED together.

   Maybe we can keep the thread going on this aspect of the subject:

   Any masons (or anyone else) out there with photos to post of  scaffolding in interesting situations?? Let's see 'em.

    Dinosaur

   'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?

3. 
   timkline | Jun 15, 2003 07:03am | #18

   piffin,

   Actually, you would be amazed at what is out there in scaffold. We do a lot of wierd stuff that requires special applications. The braces are available not just in 7' and 10' but we also carry 7'6" and 8'. To further complicate things, the studs on the frames are not all the same distance apart. Some are 24" oc, others can be 27 3/4", 36", and even 48". All of these different stud spacings require different length braces to achieve the proper frame spacing. We don't stock all this stuff, we rent it. By mixing braces, you can sometimes get custom spacings between frames to achieve the fit you need. Sure, everybody uses 5x5x7 scaffold, but you are just scratching the surface. Try tube and clamp someday. It's the ticket for the jobs where you say "How in the hell are we going to scaffold this ?

   carpenter in transition

1. 
   Piffin | Jun 15, 2003 07:38am | #19

   Tube and clamp????

   got a link?.

   Excellence is its own reward!

2. 
   timkline | Jun 15, 2003 08:14am | #21

   Sure !

   The basics:

   http://www.tubularfabricating.com/equip_tUBE.htm

   A little bit more complex:

   http://www.thielmfg.com/tubeclamp.html

   Good God ! :

   http://www.canadascaffold.com/sinclair_scaffold.htm

   When we go into a warehouse that is loaded with stuff, big stuff, like heavy equipment that can't be moved, but we absolutely must rip off the whole roof right away and get a new one on. If we have to scaffold for safety, we will use tube and clamp.  You have to think in 3 dimensions with it. You are no longer fixed with widths, lengths or  heights to standard frame and brace dimensions. It is variable to whatever you want. Brace not long enough ? Screw in another one and make it longer !  Very cool. Feel free to blend it with other forms of scaffold when you get in a fix. Pipe scaffold on a basic setup is definitely faster, but nothing is as versatile as tube and clamp.

   carpenter in transition

   Edited 6/15/2003 1:17:13 AM ET by TIM_KLINE

3. 
   Davo304 | Jun 15, 2003 08:29am | #23

   "tube and clamp"....

   If I'm reading Tim Kline right, this stuff is amazing, but can only be erected by pros...you can't rent this stuff and install yourself...least not in my area. They use this stuff when scaffolding around  large smoke stacks found at local power plants, steel mills, and a nearby nuclear plant as well.

   The "tubes" are simply aluminum poles ( approx 2 inch dia...8, 10, or 12 feet long...and probably other lengths that I'm simply not aware of)) that have round  metal "baskets" attached to them. The "baskets" resemble the round, plastic fin on the bottom of a snow skier's  "ski poles". Cross braces are connected to these baskets via a clamping mechanism that attaches to the basket. The beauty of this system, is that it goes up stick by stick. Installers can erect this stuff over and around many objects, because their bracing methods are different. There are several baskets per pole which allows for different attachment points...making it pretty flexible for manuevering around objects. There are also different lengths of bracing ( short & long pieces) which compliment everything.

   There are no rungs to step on when climbing up or down this set-up. You climb by shimming up a pole,  using the baskets as "ladder rungs" and/or by walking on the bracing. This type of scaffold can be errected literally hundreds of feet in the air...of course it is "tied off" every so often to keep from falling.

   I witnessed such installation a few years ago when scaffolding was needed to be raised 110 feet around a steel mill's blast furnace so repairs to piping could be made.

   I've installed regular (5x5x7) Waco scaffolding as high as 60 feet before, but seeing that stuff up 110 feet was a sight to see.  Watching the guys dismantling it later was a bigger treat. Those guys are fearless...they have to be. All they really got is their legs wrapped Indian Style around a tube, while they are breaking down the bracing. They then shimmy down that tube to the next one, wrap their legs again, and start dismantling the tube they just shimmied down. They lower each piece down by rope and pulley to a ground man...which is the same technique for installation...rope and pulley and a ground man raising each piece up in place.

   I don't know the name of this scaffolding outfit, they are located in Pittsburgh, Pa...but they have divisions through-outy the country...again...this is mostly used for industrial, professional work...I've never seen this used in a residential setting. Perhaps it is used in some instances, but I've only ever witnessed it at industrial sites.

   One more thing...those tubes are not light...they are pretty stout and heavy. Guys working with that stuff either have big arms, or will develop them soon enough...it's not a job for wimps.

   Davo

4. 
   Davo304 | Jun 15, 2003 08:54am | #24

   As for approved scaffold plank...we always used rough cut lumber stamped by OSHA and /or LVLs (microlams) that were 1-3/4 inch thick and 11-3/4 inches wide. Those microlams are AWSOME! can hold a LOT of weight. Cost...approx $75 per 16 footer.

   The largest span we ever spanned with microlams without supports was 11 feet. Normally we cut the planks in half and had them span nominally 8 feet. If a span was 12 feet or longer, we simply "doubled " the plank with another microlam...then you could walk a full 16 feet clear span if desired.  Keep in mind that we normally had 2 to 3 guys ( all fat guys) standing on that plank at the same time.

   Only ever saw one break in my 11 years of use with them...it had a hidden knot defect in it. Luckily, no one got hurt in that incident, because the entire scaffold top was fully decked at the time...which was also SOP for us.  I've seen 8 foot spans of microlam piled up with 4 feet of gunnite sitting right smack dab in the center of the plank, then saw a 200 pound plus man walk out on that plank and walk overtop of this gunnite...and the plank never broke...it was bowed fairly well...but a normal 2X12 would have snapped like a little twig...that's the difference...can't say enough about using microlams...except they aren't light-weight either...they mighty heavy.

   Also, in reply to someone commenting about how in the "old days" carpenters used stick-built wooden scaffolds...well I'm here to tell you that in our steel mill, our Carpenter Shop gang was always errecting scaffolding in some part of the mill for a maintenance crew...well 90% of all errected scaffolding was "home-made" using 4X4 fir for the posts, and main support beams. We used 1X6s for cross bracing, and nailed microlam on top for our decking. Ive errected scaffolding using this technique to regular heights of 30 feet and on occaisions we built them to rise 50-60 feet. 

   It wasn't because we didin't want to use standard pipe scaffolding...heck, we installed tons of that stuff too...but in many instances, due to machinery in place or something next to our job site, we were forced to construct various types of wood scaffolding.

   This stick-built stuff is still today a "mainstay" in the local steel mills.

   Davo

5. 
   Piffin | Jun 16, 2003 01:38am | #26

   I've worked off standard pipe staging up to eleven stories high on condos in Colorado but I wouldn't climb it unless I was involved in settup and tie off. After all - it was my life. I saw a staging fall once from only three stories high. It wasn't a pretty sight..

   Excellence is its own reward!

6. 
   Shoeman | Jun 16, 2003 06:27am | #27

   When I was in China a year or so ago I saw some pretty interesting bamboo scaffolding.  Must have been ten or so stories high.  Nothing but long lengths of bamboo lashed together on site.  Pretty amazing structure.  Will have to dig through pictures and see if I can find one to post.  Would not want to be on the crew erecting that stuff.

7. 
   Shoeman | Jun 16, 2003 06:32am | #29

   Personally, I just have a couple sections that are 4' wide by 6' high with cross braces that set them at 7' long.  Beleive they are listed as "light" duty or something like that.  Work real well for my needs though - never more than 3 sections high. Bought the 4' wide so that I could slide them in my van vertically and not take up the whole back.  Have a gooser bar for diagonal bracing and the planks that are aluminum rails with plywood deck, leveler legs and 8" locking casters. 

8. 
   timkline | Jun 16, 2003 06:29am | #28

   Davo,

   We rent from a local supplier that is also a pretty large erector. They do most of our big work and a lot of our complicated stuff, depending on time frame. Some of the biggest in the business that sometimes work around here are Patent and Safway. Could you be thinking of Universal in Pittsburgh ? We do rent tube and clamp from our local people, although I don't ever remember hearing them say that they wouldn't rent it to just anybody. By the way, the tubes are aluminum, and I never really found them to be that heavy, especially compared to roping up 5x5's or 5x6.5 walk through frames.

   carpenter in transition

9. 
   IMERC | Jun 15, 2003 08:05am | #20

   Oh my ... A whole new set of definitions for black diamonds...

2. 
   stonefever | Jun 14, 2003 06:27am | #2

   Go rent a platform(s) and several cross braces to go along with what you got.  Then attach the structure to the house at several points to keep it from swaying.

   Otherwise, you'll kill yourself.

3. 
   Dinosaur | Jun 14, 2003 07:36am | #3

   Scaffolding madriers (or 'planks' in English) have to be certified here; the provincial workman's comp board (CSST) demands a stamp burned into the wood specifying they've been tested and passed. They are not standard 2x12s but full rough-cut dimensions, and have to be made of #1 or better KD. They are 12 feet long, so as to have a 1-foot overhang on each side of standard 5'x10' scaffolding. They weigh a ton and cost over $40 per board. If you buy some, go through the whole pile if necessary to make sure the ones you buy are not twisted; if they are, they'll rock on the scaffolding everytime you move your feet. Store them in stick when not in use so they won't twist later.

   Adding a cleat on the bottom isn't a bad idea, but it'll drive you a little nuts when you try to raise or lower a plank solo unless you flip the plank cleat side up before you try to slide it out.

   Yes, you should definitely use two planks side by side unless you are very used to being up on scaffolding; and yes, you should lag-screw the scaffolding to the house with pipe strapping (minimum) if you go more than two layers high. Make sure the frames are well-footed on adjustable screw-post feet or squares of 2x8. Also, get out your level and use it. If the scaffolding isn't DFL (Dead Effing Level) you won't be able to get the cross-braces on the pins once you're up a couple of layers.

   I have used 'ladder' platforms; they are so much more stable to work on it's amazing, and you only need one for each frame. But they are virtually impossible to move single handed, which for me is sometimes a problem.

   Of course, you should never be up on a scaffolding when there's no one else on site; that should go without saying. But we all know what 'should' really means, too....

   Be careful.

   Dinosaur

   'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?

4. 
   andybuildz | Jun 14, 2003 02:24pm | #8

   Wiley

         The guys that worked for me when I did the previous house (see website below and my scaffolds out front) called me the scaffold king. I've come up with intense scaffold configurations up hill and down dale.

   My advise is to "think wisely" and to use descrestion upon what may save yer life and add to it. Takes all of five minutes. Take absolutly no chances yet be creative.

   I've scored me some real nice aluminum pump jacks and poles. Aluminum planks and seriously heavy duty wood planks where I need em'

   Walk safely dude....make the job go by that much better

   BE safe and not cheap

                                     NAmaste

                                                   andy

    

    

   In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''

   http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

5. 
   r_ignacki | Jun 14, 2003 05:17pm | #12

   look at the wood, I'd beware of a spike knot in the center, you're weight can break it half. I looked at the stack of planks the bricklayer next door has, ther're all clear yellow pine.
6. 
   Brudoggie | Jun 14, 2003 10:49pm | #13

   Around here, 5'x 7' s are the norm, but a few old plasterers used 5' x 10' s. I use 5'x 7' s for single level, and often use 6'6"x 7' walk thru's on the bottom of taller set ups. OSHA says deck them full width at working level, and the aluminum planks, 3 wide are perfect. Feels like working on the ground, except the railing around you.( we all use those, and toe boards too right?) For wood planking between stages, I'm using the LVL scaffold planks. They're heavy, but feel very secure. Again full deck. Usually 3 wide with plywood on top. We scaffold everything that can't be done with our wall brackets. Don't care for ladders, ladder jacks, or pump jacks. Yeah, I'm a wimp! I'm finding setup time, and tear down to be offset by improved productivity at working height almost every time. Plus, I get to own that much more equiptment. I confess to being a tool junkie. Be safe out there!!!

     Brudoggie

1. 
   Piffin | Jun 15, 2003 04:46am | #16

   Thjat's a lesson that I keep learning over and over - that the setup time pays off in increased productivity. Good planning and co-ordination keeps all the trades moving together with same set up sometimnes.

   Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   donpapenburg | Jun 15, 2003 05:58am | #17

   Do any of you use the stand offs with your scaffold?  Triangular shaped brackets for the planking to go on the outside of the scaffold.  makes the work go faster as there are no pipes to reach around and moving up and down is easier .  My scaffold is 5x5x7 and 7x5x7  . I also made up a section that is 15x5x7,a little tough to move by yourself but it sets up fast.

7. 
   GHR | Jun 14, 2003 11:46pm | #14

   Scaffolding planks rent for $2/week (or month). Rent them

   If you look at the NDS for Wood Construction. There are specs for scaffolding grade planks.

8. 
   Stuts | Jun 15, 2003 08:22am | #22

   I just left an OSHA meeting on scaffold use and safety. Boy, don't ask them that question.  Scaffold planks are selected lumber, knot free and pinned each end to inhibit checking and warping.  I am not suggesting you do this, but a piece of 3/4" ply ripped down and placed on top of the 2x12 might help. Don't let anyone but yourself go up there or your exposure to liability is 100%.

9. 
   handhewn | Jun 16, 2003 01:35am | #25

   You might try a masonry supply yard, a paint store or two, or your local rental center for some "ladder" style planks. My plaster/stucco sub uses these all the time. I like when he is on the job so I can use his setup. He was able to get the best deal on his scaffolding and ladder planking from the paint store. $50,000 worth of scaffold from the paint store. Kind of a funny picture in my head.

   I use 2x10 and 2x12 framing lumber for planks on a regular basis. They are going to bounce, but use your head and keep your wits about you.

   Be careful, curly

   
   

   ---

   Edited 6/15/2003 6:38:52 PM ET by Curly